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Epicurius posted:Horribly barbaric. To the symposium, then? There were rules. Typically at a symposium, the guests were limited to a maximum of three drinks. One guest was in charge of mixing the wine and distributing it, and to drink more than three was quite improper. You were not supposed to get drunk.
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May 28, 2018 15:04
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Guildencrantz posted:Wait, what's the horrifying part here? Is it "oh gods women in the streets enjoying themselves"? Because I find it hard to believe the Greeks would be horrified by binge drinking. That's part of it, at least. Greeks were also horrified to see Egyptian men and women walking hand in hand, rather than the woman keeping a respectful distance behind the man.
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May 28, 2018 15:13
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Grand Fromage posted:There were rules. Typically at a symposium, the guests were limited to a maximum of three drinks. One guest was in charge of mixing the wine and distributing it, and to drink more than three was quite improper. You were not supposed to get drunk. The line in Eubulus? It says "After three bowls, wise guests go home", but then it talks about the effect of further drunkenness after then, suggesting that not every guest at a symposium was so wise. And you've got the fragment from Epicharmus, about how a sacrifice leads to a feast, which leads to a symposium, which leads to drunken brawling in the street, which leads to lawsuits and punishments. I don't know. I've always seen the "Oh, no. Symposia don't dissolve into drunken debauchery" you see in a some of ancient sources as protesting too much, like that line from one of Plato's works about "It's the mark of the uneducated to go crazy at a symposium. We educated people talk about poetry, even if we get really drunk." And even in Plato's "Symposium", where it's all formal and civilized and about the nature of love, you still see Alcibiades show up drunk. And historically, Alexander the Great's symposia were pretty notorious for not stopping at 3 drinks.
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May 28, 2018 15:41
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I think you're conflating "not supposed to" and "didn't", there. 
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May 28, 2018 16:19
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Grand Fromage posted:I think you're conflating "not supposed to" and "didn't", there. I think what I'm trying to say is that there was probably a segment of Greek intellectuals who considered drunkenness (in men) uncivilized, but that it was common enough in Greece, even among the Greek upper classes, that the sight of drunken Egyptian men wouldn't have horrified the Greeks. Drunken Egyptian women, on the other hand. they would find shocking.
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May 28, 2018 16:29
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Guildencrantz posted:Wait, what's the horrifying part here? Is it "oh gods women in the streets enjoying themselves"? Because I find it hard to believe the Greeks would be horrified by binge drinking. I checked up the quote and turns out I remembered it wrong, they weren't horrified just amused: Aristoteles posted:Those who get drunk on beer fall on their backs and lie with their faces up. Those who get drunk on wine fall down every which way.
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May 28, 2018 16:52
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Epicurius posted:I think what I'm trying to say is that there was probably a segment of Greek intellectuals who considered drunkenness (in men) uncivilized, but that it was common enough in Greece, even among the Greek upper classes, that the sight of drunken Egyptian men wouldn't have horrified the Greeks. Drunken Egyptian women, on the other hand. they would find shocking. People in our culture get drunk all the time and the mainstream belief is that it's not a good thing, and often the drunk people themselves don't regard it as a particularly good thing to have done when they wake up. I don't see why it's so hard to imagine that a much more socially regulated culture would have regarded it as an immoral behavior notwithstanding it being commonplace.
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May 28, 2018 17:47
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Epicurius posted:And historically, Alexander the Great's symposia were pretty notorious for not stopping at 3 drinks.
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May 28, 2018 18:39
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HEY GUNS posted:alexander wasn't greek either neither was greece after he got done with it
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May 28, 2018 18:48
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HEY GUNS posted:alexander wasn't greek either That is highly controversial and subjective. The Macedonians definitely thought they were, and so did Herodotus, and either way he was part of the cultural milleu that at least philosophically believed it was bad to be a drunk.
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May 28, 2018 19:02
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the macedonians can think what they like and everyone knows herodotos was a panhellenist
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May 28, 2018 19:04
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By this way of thinking, though, Aristotle is potentially not Greek.
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May 28, 2018 19:05
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Epicurius posted:The line in Eubulus? It says "After three bowls, wise guests go home" Man, I thought after three bowls is when you queue up weird music videos and order pizza, I've been doing it wrong
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May 28, 2018 19:08
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They're all Greek to me.
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May 28, 2018 19:09
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Macedonians are half barbarous anyway, nobody should be surprised if they get piss drunk and start demanding everyone do proskynesis to them
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May 28, 2018 19:10
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Disinterested posted:By this way of thinking, though, Aristotle is potentially not Greek. No one is greek, but the Atlantean Bolivians!
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May 28, 2018 19:12
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Mantis42 posted:They're all Greek to me.
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May 28, 2018 19:28
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im greek
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May 28, 2018 19:34
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 just sayin
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May 28, 2018 19:41
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https://www.central.edu/campus-life/get-involved/ Looks like they have Greek Culture 
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May 28, 2018 19:48
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Disinterested posted:https://www.central.edu/campus-life/get-involved/ case closed then Alexander is
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May 28, 2018 19:55
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Disinterested posted:That is highly controversial and subjective. The Macedonians definitely thought they were, and so did Herodotus, and either way he was part of the cultural milleu that at least philosophically believed it was bad to be a drunk. Might wanna pull that fish hook outta your mouth my dude.
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May 28, 2018 20:55
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Beamed posted:Might wanna pull that fish hook outta your mouth my dude. Sometimes you gotta bite on it for the sake of the innocent bystander
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May 28, 2018 21:04
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I just read that Mark Antony went fishing one day with Cleopatra, got pissed off that he wasn't catching anything so he got some servants to dive underwater and hook fish onto his line so he could pull them out while Cleopatra cooed over how great he was. The next day they went out fishing again and Cleopatra asked him to show off again, and to his great surprise and delight he immediately hauled out a big fish as everybody cheered and then burst out laughing... because Cleopatra had sent down her own servants to do the same for him, only this time with a gutted, seasoned and cooked fish to make it absolutely clear she knew what he'd been up to the previous day  Best part of the story is that apparently Mark Antony found the whole thing hilarious too 
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May 29, 2018 03:25
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FAUXTON posted:
Home of Kyle Korver and windows.
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May 29, 2018 06:17
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HEY GUNS posted:alexander wasn't greek either I've got a Greek friend, who is trained as a classicist, who refuses to talk about Alexander the Great and especially the question of whether or not he is Greek. Its a really touchy subject.
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May 29, 2018 07:58
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I'm now sad that the fishing anecdote is only portrayed by James Purefoy in my head. The guy absolutely nailed Big Mark and I'd watch the gently caress out of any kind of spin-off where he just goes on adventures and has a cool time.
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May 29, 2018 09:50
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Jerusalem posted:I just read that Mark Antony went fishing one day with Cleopatra, got pissed off that he wasn't catching anything so he got some servants to dive underwater and hook fish onto his line so he could pull them out while Cleopatra cooed over how great he was. The next day they went out fishing again and Cleopatra asked him to show off again, and to his great surprise and delight he immediately hauled out a big fish as everybody cheered and then burst out laughing... because Cleopatra had sent down her own servants to do the same for him, only this time with a gutted, seasoned and cooked fish to make it absolutely clear she knew what he'd been up to the previous day If those divers had spent less time dicking around, and more time checking for remoras, they might have won the battle of Actium.
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May 29, 2018 11:03
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https://twitter.com/pompeii_sites/status/1001381588058492928 That's a find alright
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May 29, 2018 12:12
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Jerusalem posted:I just read that Mark Antony went fishing one day with Cleopatra, got pissed off that he wasn't catching anything so he got some servants to dive underwater and hook fish onto his line so he could pull them out while Cleopatra cooed over how great he was. The next day they went out fishing again and Cleopatra asked him to show off again, and to his great surprise and delight he immediately hauled out a big fish as everybody cheered and then burst out laughing... because Cleopatra had sent down her own servants to do the same for him, only this time with a gutted, seasoned and cooked fish to make it absolutely clear she knew what he'd been up to the previous day Unlikely that it was cooked but gutted and prepped I could envision.
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May 29, 2018 13:01
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Disinterested posted:That is highly controversial and subjective. The Macedonians definitely thought they were, and so did Herodotus, and either way he was part of the cultural milleu that at least philosophically believed it was bad to be a drunk. The Greeks didn't think the Macedonians as a whole were Greeks, though depending on who you'd ask they might concede the aristocracy or the royal family as Greeks. They were at least Philhellenes, who spoke Greek and embraced Greek culture to a large extent. Whether that made them Greek or not depended on who was writing and observing I'd say, if you say it doesn't then a good comparison may be how the Russian aristocracy form Peter the Great's time spoke mostly French amongst themselves and embraced many parts of Western, particularly French, culture, though they still were Russian. If I recall correctly from Arrian there are mentions of Alexander and his officers at times communicating in Macedonian so the Greeks present would not understand them, so it appears that it at least was a different language, incomprehensible to Greeks (though quite possibly related to Greek). As regards Alexander's symposiums, the Macedonians are remarked upon as going quite a bit further with theirs than the Greeks, drinking themselves into stupors, something the Greeks did in fact find barbarous, the Greeks also mixed their wine about 50/50 with water and thought people who didn't do this were savages (and I think the Macedonians were among these people). Anyway, even if the Macedonians might fall on the not Greek line. Alexander himself was anyway half Greek, by way of her mother who was an Epirote. They were definitely Greek, if a little backwards and savage due to not living in a polis. 9-Volt Assault posted:I've got a Greek friend, who is trained as a classicist, who refuses to talk about Alexander the Great and especially the question of whether or not he is Greek. Its a really touchy subject. The Greek-Macedonian namefight is probably the stupidest conflict/controversy in the modern era. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 21:33 on May 29, 2018 |
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May 29, 2018 21:28
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I'm not even sure what category of thing the concept of greek/not greek would be back then. I'm a little embedded in the modern idea of nationalism. Closest I can think of is the Commonwealth of Nations. A bunch of independent groups of people with related histories and mostly the same language and religion. Of course, most of the time when people bring up the subject, they don't so much care about the mindset of the people at the time as they do about modern nationalism and what have you.
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May 29, 2018 23:15
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Greek identity is a myth invented by the Atlanteans, of course.
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May 29, 2018 23:25
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Mr Enderby posted:If those divers had spent less time dicking around, and more time checking for remoras, they might have won the battle of Actium. Pfffft like they’re beating Agrippa 
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May 29, 2018 23:43
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SlothfulCobra posted:I'm not even sure what category of thing the concept of greek/not greek would be back then. I'm a little embedded in the modern idea of nationalism. Closest I can think of is the Commonwealth of Nations. A bunch of independent groups of people with related histories and mostly the same language and religion. Greeks divided all people in to two types, based on language. If you spoke Greek you were a Hellene, if you didn't you were a barbarian. The problem is that while this is the framework everyone purports to use they still will merrily call Greek speakers barbarians if they feel rustic to whoever's speaking. Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek, and people from the area participated in the olympic games and visited and donated to the oracle at Delphi, which are the two big pan-hellenic activities. And yet some Greeks called them barbarians. On the other hand, there's not really a mention of Macedonians in the Trojan War.
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May 30, 2018 01:01
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I'm wondering if this discussion was sparked by the Hellenistic Age Podcast, which covered the same question a couple episodes ago. It's only just starting, but it's pretty good so far, and the Hellenistic era is the best era. I think the mainland Greeks considered the Macedonians as somewhere between "proper" Greeks and the Thracians or Illyrians. The Macedonians were northern barbarians, but more civilized than the rest. I think it's accepted that all the peoples in the Balkans were related linguistically and culturally, and I suspect Greek identify was a bit more fluid than we'd think of it now.
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May 30, 2018 01:28
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Disinterested posted:Greeks divided all people in to two types, based on language. If you spoke Greek you were a Hellene, if you didn't you were a barbarian. so are the myrmidons the northernmost hellenes mentioned in the illiad? it's been over a decade since i read it, getting awfully spotty
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May 30, 2018 01:48
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V. Illych L. posted:so are the myrmidons the northernmost hellenes mentioned in the illiad? it's been over a decade since i read it, getting awfully spotty Uh, yeah. Achilles was a Myrmidon.
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May 30, 2018 01:51
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V. Illych L. posted:so are the myrmidons the northernmost hellenes mentioned in the illiad? it's been over a decade since i read it, getting awfully spotty No, the greeks who came from further north in Thessaly, like Leonteus. The Paeonians are contenders but they fought for Troy and are very dubiously greek.
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May 30, 2018 02:00
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LingcodKilla posted:Unlikely that it was cooked but gutted and prepped I could envision. Yep, I got overenthusiastic in my description, the story is naturally great without needing any embellishment. Cleopatra posted:Better to leave fishing to us poor Egyptians—your game is conquering kingdoms. Now that was a lady who knew how to flatter 
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May 30, 2018 02:34
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