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man it really sucks that neolibs/neocons have learned the word tankie and are applying it to literally anyone against american imperialism
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May 28, 2018 20:03
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Kanine posted:man it really sucks that neolibs/neocons have learned the word tankie and are applying it to literally anyone against american imperialism Yeah, I've noticed this a lot; there are only like 2 or 3 (if that) actual tankies I can think of on these forums, but some people are acting like anyone who isn't 100% constantly supportive of all condemnation and aggressive action against certain nations (mainly Syria and Russia) is some crazy tankie. My personal theory is that a certain type of liberal really enjoys being able to establish themselves as being "not far left," because disagreeing with people "on both sides" makes them feel like more reasonable people who come to conclusions based on "the facts." Herstory Begins Now posted:I think intervening would have been the right decision in many respects. I also think not intervening in a more substantial way was the right decision. Somehow both these views seem entirely valid to me. Syria is about the most complicated quagmiriest potential quagmire imaginable and it's hard to conceive of any way whatsoever that intervention would not expand into a massive, terrible, drawn out affair. Simultaneously the brutality of the Assad Regime (and of the other factions involved and especially ISIS) was such that it was a moral failing to not do more to push back. I don't think this makes sense at all. Sometimes there are situations that you just can't solve through having another nation bomb people, and acknowledging that isn't somehow immoral. There's no moral obligation to take action when it's unlikely the action in question will actually have positive effects (and quite possible it'll make things worse). Even if you believe (as Volkerball obviously does) that a hypothetical helpful intervention was possible, I don't think it's reasonable to expect any actual intervention to proceed in this manner. If you're concerned about inaction, it makes sense to be upset about things like the massive amount of wealth held by the global wealth not being used to help people in need, because that's a situation where the action (giving money/goods to people in in need) is a directly good thing. Bombing Syria wouldn't be directly good in this way; it would basically be an inherently negative thing done in the hopes of a positive outcome. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 20:19 on May 28, 2018 |
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May 28, 2018 20:09
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, I've noticed this a lot; there are only like 2 or 3 (if that) actual tankies I can think of on these forums, but some people are acting like anyone who isn't 100% constantly supportive of all condemnation and aggressive action against certain nations (mainly Syria and Russia) is some crazy tankie. its also hilarious how much they tend to prove their lack of understanding of the term after calling me a tankie when ive made it very clear im an anarchist. like holy poo poo the term was invented by anarchists/leftcoms
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May 28, 2018 21:02
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Anarchism is a toy ideology best kept in the bin with monarchy. Don't even try to pretend to be serious.
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May 28, 2018 21:21
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fishmech posted:Anarchism is a toy ideology best kept in the bin with monarchy. Don't even try to pretend to be serious. better the trashbag ideology than nothing at all
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May 28, 2018 21:40
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Kanine posted:man it really sucks that neolibs/neocons have learned the word tankie and are applying it to literally anyone against american imperialism It's kinda funny.
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May 28, 2018 22:35
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Russia is now the defacto head of bourgeois repression now however.
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May 28, 2018 22:37
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fishmech posted:Anarchism is a toy ideology best kept in the bin with monarchy. Don't even try to pretend to be serious. 
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May 29, 2018 02:52
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Blut posted:Wouldn't the alternative to that, not paying the militiamen, be worse? The demobilization of large numbers of Iraqi soldiers after the American invasion there is usually credited with providing a large pool of unemployed, trained, young men for extremists to recruit. I believe this was part of what motivated the policy. However the situations were very different. Former members of the Iraqi army had plenty of reason the resent the occupation government even before they were all fired, while throwing away its centralized bureaucracy meant sacrificing the ability to direct and control it's soldiers. By contrast Libya's militias had no centralized organization. The Libyan government just started sending a monthly subsidy to every self-proclaimed revolutionary battalion. The result was that in the year following Ghadaffi's death when the civil war was ostensibly over, the number of armed groups and men actually increased. Anyone could buy a rifle and demand a government salary. The Libyan state had created a perverse incentive for Libya's many unemployed young men to start arming and mobilizing themselves en masse Once the government started subsidies t became almost impossible to reign the armed groups in. WIthout any kind of hierarchy groups ran rampant. If the government didn't pay up they resorted to extortion and shakedowns at pop-up checkpoints. I'm just paraphrasing the first third of Wehrey's book here so I'm not really producing any original or critical thought. I'll probably report back once I've finished it. From what I've read so far though I'd recommend it.
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May 29, 2018 03:41
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lollontee posted:better the trashbag ideology than nothing at all Not really, no.
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May 29, 2018 04:14
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Another rocket attack in Israel, lots of roket attacm alarms blaring. Sky lit up twice.
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May 29, 2018 06:04
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Syria got the rotating presidency of the UN Conference on Disarmament
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May 29, 2018 06:22
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Sergg posted:Syria got the rotating presidency of the UN Conference on Disarmament 
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May 29, 2018 11:40
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To be fair, the Syria is doing a lot to clear out their weapons stockpiles.
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May 29, 2018 11:54
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Q0KBgaRS4 Sham Legion in action against US backed terrorists YPG.
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May 29, 2018 12:11
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Toplowtech posted:Now this is a middle east thread by the previous thread standart to be fair, the presidency rotates every month. Still, though.
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May 29, 2018 19:21
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Squalid posted:I believe this was part of what motivated the policy. However the situations were very different. Former members of the Iraqi army had plenty of reason the resent the occupation government even before they were all fired, while throwing away its centralized bureaucracy meant sacrificing the ability to direct and control it's soldiers. Ah. It sounds like the best solution then would have been in the middle, between the two approaches. If the new Libyan government had only paid the pre-existing soldiers/militia a salary it might have helped prevent them being used for other purposes. But it would also not have encouraged a rapid expansion in their numbers the way offering to pay anyone did. Valuable lessons for the next Middle-Eastern country to be torn down by the West and left to its own devices to build itself back up again I guess.
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May 29, 2018 20:00
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Huh, the unrecognized nations club just got slightly less unrecognized: http://agenda.ge/news/101503/eng quote:The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Syria has released an official statement regarding the recognition of occupied Abkhazia and Tskhinvali regions. quote:Recognition of independence of historic regions of Georgia, Abkhazia and Tskhinvali (South Osetia), by Russian manipulated Assad regime in Syria, is another blatant violation of Int Law by Assad and should be condemned by the int community Georgia is pissed, as you would obviously expect them to be: https://twitter.com/alexkokcharov/status/1001432748349972481 quote:#Georgia began the procedure of terminating diplomatic relations with #Syria due to Damascus' today's recognition of "independence" of 2 Georgian breakaway regions under #Russia|n military occupation
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May 29, 2018 21:49
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Georgia should just recognize Rojava as an independent nation
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May 30, 2018 03:27
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A Typical Goon posted:Georgia should just recognize Rojava as an independent nation They share a border with Turkey, and obviously already face a hostile northern neighbor, so that sounds like a bad idea. Recognizing israel's annexation of Golan would be a more interesting troll. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 04:15 on May 30, 2018 |
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May 30, 2018 04:12
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Blut posted:Ah. It sounds like the best solution then would have been in the middle, between the two approaches. If the new Libyan government had only paid the pre-existing soldiers/militia a salary it might have helped prevent them being used for other purposes. But it would also not have encouraged a rapid expansion in their numbers the way offering to pay anyone did. "do not give your weapons up when the Americans ask" is mostly the lesson tbh
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May 30, 2018 19:20
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Ze Pollack posted:"do not give your weapons up when the Americans ask" is mostly the lesson tbh I'd have gone for "don't promise to bathe your cities in rivers of blood" but that's just me tbh
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May 30, 2018 19:35
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Cat Army 
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The Iron Rose posted:I'd have gone for "don't promise to bathe your cities in rivers of blood" but that's just me tbh did the Saudis say "flood" instead of "bathe" about Yemen, and that's why it's okay for us to help them murder them all
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May 30, 2018 20:43
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The Iron Rose posted:I'd have gone for "don't promise to bathe your cities in rivers of blood" but that's just me tbh Yup, that really forced everyone to “do something”. This is the second time you have said this. If you think that some hyperbolic language is enough to destroy a country, eat poo poo. It’s an excuse to destroy an enemy of the west, you are ok with that, we know.
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May 30, 2018 20:58
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We should have taken Qaddafi seriously, not literally!
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May 30, 2018 21:00
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Gen. Ripper posted:We should have taken Qaddafi seriously, not literally! The British parliamentary report basically said that, and admitted they knew he was being hyperbolic when they used it as a justification for war.
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May 30, 2018 21:02
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it is necessary for the US to act swiftly and decisively against state sponsors of middle eastern terror, and as a result Petraeus and McChrystal will need to be sodomized to death with bayonets
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May 30, 2018 21:18
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Ze Pollack posted:it is necessary for the US to act swiftly and decisively against state sponsors of middle eastern terror, and as a result Petraeus and McChrystal will need to be sodomized to death with bayonets
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May 30, 2018 21:21
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Yes this man who is currently ordering jets and helicopter gunships to bomb protesters is not speaking literally about his intentions to kill as many protesters as possible.
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May 30, 2018 21:23
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yes this man who is currently ordering jets and helicopter gunships to bomb protesters is not speaking literally about his intentions to kill as many protesters as possible. It was well after the protests had already been put down, and it was instead about putting down the rebellion. Its a government report, so they're not nearly as glib as the thread is. Its worth a glance through: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmfaff/119/119.pdf
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May 30, 2018 21:26
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yes this man who is currently ordering jets and helicopter gunships to bomb protesters is not speaking literally about his intentions to kill as many protesters as possible. sorry, didn't you hear, Vision 2020. he's a Reformer now.
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May 30, 2018 21:27
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Ze Pollack posted:sorry, didn't you hear, Vision 2020. he's a Reformer now. I agree, MBS is a bastard and the world would be a better place if he was guillotined tomorrow.
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May 30, 2018 21:28
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Gen. Ripper posted:I agree, MBS is a bastard and the world would be a better place if he was guillotined tomorrow. it is deeply hilarious that there are precisely two states in the Middle East where you can make a compelling case that whatever arose from a bloody regime change would be better than what was there before, and both of them are diehard US allies
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May 30, 2018 21:31
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Ze Pollack posted:it is deeply hilarious that there are precisely two states in the Middle East where you can make a compelling case that whatever arose from a bloody regime change would be better than what was there before, and both of them are diehard US allies If we're talking about Saudi Arabia overthrowing their current government would probably just lead to a crazed Islamist movement a la ISIS, but probably way, way worse considering it's proximity to the Holy cities and the importance of Saudi Arabia's oil to the world's economy. People seem to forget that the SA regime is a horrible hardline nightmare not just for the crack of it but because they have to pacify the powerful Wahhabi fundamentalists within the country who aren't actually that fond of the monarchy and are perfectly willing to cause trouble if they don't get their dues.
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May 30, 2018 22:19
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khwarezm posted:If we're talking about Saudi Arabia overthrowing their current government would probably just lead to a crazed Islamist movement a la ISIS, but probably way, way worse considering it's proximity to the Holy cities and the importance of Saudi Arabia's oil to the world's economy. they are also the single largest funding source for those fundamentalists, soooo
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May 30, 2018 22:21
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Ze Pollack posted:they are also the single largest funding source for those fundamentalists, soooo In our hypothetical scenario where somebody overthrows the government of Saudi Arabia and the country almost inevitably descends into chaos since it's incredibly obvious to everybody that there are horrendous divisions nanometers underneath the surface along with a near lack of civil society and democratic institutions or really any institutions not totally beholden to the monarchy that might have made it possible to transition to something workable, what do you think will happen exactly?
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May 30, 2018 22:28
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khwarezm posted:In our hypothetical scenario where somebody overthrows the government of Saudi Arabia and the country almost inevitably descends into chaos since it's incredibly obvious to everybody that there are horrendous divisions nanometers underneath the surface along with a near lack of civil society and democratic institutions or really any institutions not totally beholden to the monarchy that might have made it possible to transition to something workable, what do you think will happen exactly? See, but then they wouldn’t be our allies.
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May 30, 2018 22:32
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khwarezm posted:In our hypothetical scenario where somebody overthrows the government of Saudi Arabia and the country almost inevitably descends into chaos since it's incredibly obvious to everybody that there are horrendous divisions nanometers underneath the surface along with a near lack of civil society and democratic institutions or really any institutions not totally beholden to the monarchy that might have made it possible to transition to something workable, what do you think will happen exactly? the creation of a government the US is no longer obliged to rubberstamp in mass murdering civilians and exporting terror across the middle east. even the most nightmarish theocratic regime that could result from that whole shitshow becomes FAR less dangerous to the world without a blank check for mass murder signed by uncle sam
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May 30, 2018 22:53
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Ze Pollack posted:"do not give your weapons up when the Americans ask" is mostly the lesson tbh Ah yes, Libya would totally still be under Gaddaffi's hand today with chemical weapons and - sorry I've just been informed that gassing your civilians doesn't actually keep foreign bombing sorties from functioning. Weird how that works.
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May 30, 2018 23:18
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Ze Pollack posted:the creation of a government the US is no longer obliged to rubberstamp in mass murdering civilians and exporting terror across the middle east. ....the USA isn't obliged to rubberstamp the current government, they do so for a variety of cynical geopolitical and business interests and it's highly doubtful that any of that would actually change if the current regime was gotten rid of. Violently overthrowing the current day regime (something you say could be a net good) would almost certainly just make everything worse and throw the whole Arabian peninsula into chaos, which itself would have gigantic reverberations considering the importance of Saudia Arabia not just in the Middle East but the whole world.
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May 30, 2018 23:30
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