Israel/Palestine

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(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

https://twitter.com/NTarnopolsky/status/1002085395931324416

# ? Jun 1, 2018 16:59

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 22:39

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

Disinterested posted:

https://twitter.com/NTarnopolsky/status/1002085395931324416

The intel chiefs in Israel have thankfully been more restrained than their insane politicians.

# ? Jun 1, 2018 18:24

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

Most moral army slaughtered a volunteer nurse by sniper this evening. Disgusting bunch of disgusting ... words fail me.

# ? Jun 1, 2018 18:25

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

Most moral army slaughtered a volunteer nurse by sniper this evening. Disgusting bunch of disgusting ... words fail me.

https://twitter.com/benabyad/status/1002599615336796160

# ? Jun 1, 2018 18:28

By popular demand: Jul 17, 2007; IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!

C'mon world just one nuke, a small one to decapitat this loving snake of a state. Just one. This poo poo can't keep happening.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jun 1, 2018 20:36

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

FlamingLiberal posted:

The intel chiefs in Israel have thankfully been more restrained than their insane politicians.

This reminds me of an article I saw this morning from a mega-hawk who was angry that the Israeli military was subverting democracy by...being too nice to Palestinians and advising that the Israeli government should loosen its grip on Gaza.

https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Column-One-Who-leads-Israel-558895

quote:

Israel has a problem with its security brass. And this week we received several reminders that the situation needs to be dealt with.

Since the Hamas regime in Gaza announced in March that it was planning to have civilians swarm the border with Israel, through this week�s Hamas-Islamic Jihad mortar and rocket assault on southern Israel, the IDF General Staff has been insisting there is only one thing Israel can do about Gaza.

According to our generals, Israel needs to shower Hamas with stuff. Food, medicine, water, electricity, medical supplies, concrete, cold hard cash, whatever Hamas needs, Israel should just hand it over in the name of humanitarian assistance.

Every single time reporters ask the generals what Israel can do to end Hamas�s jihadist campaign, they give the same answer. Let�s shower them with stuff.

The fact that the Palestinian Authority is blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza makes no impression on the generals. For months now, PA chief Mahmoud Abbas has refused to pay salaries to Hamas regime employees or pay for Gaza�s electricity and fuel. Hamas, for its part, destroyed the Kerem Shalom cargo terminal two weeks ago, blocking all transfer of gas and food to Gaza. And this week it blew up its electricity lines with a misfired mortar aimed at Israel.

Hamas�s determination to use civilians as human shields for its terrorists is a pretty clear message that it does not care about the people it controls. But for whatever reason, it didn�t register with the General Staff. As residents of the South were rushing to bomb shelters every 10 minutes or so on Tuesday, generals were briefing reporters that Israel must give them medicine.

When Hamas then refused to receive medical supplies from Israel, the generals doubled down and said that the only card Israel has to play is to give Gaza humanitarian aid. And they told reporters that their job at the next security cabinet meeting will be to convince Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his ministers that Israel needs to give the Hamas regime stuff.

Then there is the issue of terrorist bodies.

Hamas holds the bodies of Lt. Hadar Goldin and St.-Sgt. Oron Shaul, both killed in action during Operation Protective Edge in 2014. Hamas also holds Israeli civilian hostages Avra Mengistu and Hisham a-Suwaid.

In January 2017, the security cabinet decided that Israel will retain the bodies of terrorists rather than transfer them to Palestinian authorities for burial. The purpose of the decision was to pressure Hamas to release the Israeli hostages and remains of the IDF personnel it holds.

Despite the cabinet decision, since the cabinet made its decision, Israel has transferred to Hamas the bodies of five terrorist murderers. Each time, the IDF General Staff stood behind the move.

Currently, the government is holding the body of Hamas terrorist Aziz Awisat who just died in prison.

Media reports indicate the IDF is pushing for the government to appease Hamas again and transfer his body to Gaza for burial. To block the move, Goldin�s parents petitioned the High Court on Monday and demanded the government inform them 72 hours in advance of any transfer of a terrorist�s body to Hamas. The government agreed to the Goldin family�s demand on Thursday morning.

It is inarguable that these bodies of terrorists are valuable bargaining chips in the government�s efforts to repatriate its hostages and the remains of its soldiers. The fact that the IDF General Staff repeatedly undercuts the government�s efforts to secure their release, by surreptitiously transferring the terrorists� bodies to Hamas, is of a piece with its irrational belief that it is Israel�s responsibility to ensure a quality of life for denizens of Hamasland.

If the IDF General Staff�s chronic insubordination on behalf of Hamas terrorists weren�t enough, there�s also Iran.

In 2012, former Mossad director Meir Dagan first revealed to celebrity leftist reporter Ilana Dayan that in 2010 he went behind Netanyahu�s back and informed then-US defense secretary Leon Panetta that Netanyahu had just ordered the IDF and the Mossad to prepare an attack against Iran�s nuclear installations.

In 2016, after Dagan passed away, Dayan released a tell-all interview with Dagan where he detailed precisely how he blocked Netanyahu�s order; Dagan told Dayan that he used both the Obama administration, and an appeal to Israel�s legal establishment, to block Netanyahu from ordering the IDF and Mossad to attack Iran�s nuclear installations.

On Thursday morning, Dayan was at it again.

Her show, Uvda, released a preview of an interview set to air that evening with Dagan�s successor, recently retired Mossad chief Tamir Pardo. In his interview, Pardo relates that a year after Dagan scuttled Netanyahu�s order to prepare an attack against Iran�s nuclear installations, it was Pardo�s turn.

Pardo told Dayan that in 2011, Netanyahu again ordered the Mossad and the IDF to prepare the security services to attack Iran�s nuclear installations within 15 days. Pardo told Dayan that as he saw it, he had two choices: comply or resign.

So he chose a third option: legal subterfuge.

Dagan insisted at the Jerusalem Post Conference in 2015 that Netanyahu did not have the legal authority to order an attack against Iran. Only the security cabinet had the authority, he said. Dagan said he demanded that Netanyahu receive the approval of the security cabinet for the attack.

Apparently, Dagan based his legal position on a unique interpretation of the law regarding authority to declare war.

Under the law, the security cabinet is authorized to declare war. Dagan decided that Netanyahu�s order to strike Iran�s nuclear installations constituted a declaration of war. And so he said Netanyahu lacked the authority to order the attack. Perhaps afraid that he wouldn�t have the votes, perhaps afraid his plans would leak in the larger forum, Netanyahu stood down.

Pardo told Dayan that like Dagan, to get out of his dilemma of obeying Netanyahu�s order or resigning, he applied Dagan�s radical interpretation of the law to Netanyahu�s order.

Instead of resigning, or preparing the attack, Pardo said he went behind Netanyahu�s back to then-attorney-general Yehuda Weinstein, to get him to sign on to the Dagan-Pardo legal theory of what constitutes a declaration of war. And just as Pardo assumed would happen, Netanyahu stood down again.

Thanks to Pardo and Dagan, Iran�s nuclear expansion went on unimpeded. Thanks to Pardo and Dagan, then-US president Barack Obama had a clear path to negotiate his 2015 nuclear deal with the mullahs that gave them an open path to a nuclear arsenal by 2025 and $150 billion to finance their regional aggression.

Early last month, the media and opposition lawmakers expressed outrage when the Knesset amended the law for declaring war. Under the amended law, under certain extreme circumstances, the prime minister and defense minister are empowered to declare war without security cabinet approval.

The media and opposition lawmakers presented the amendment as an arbitrary move. Netanyahu, the commentators and opposition lawmakers insisted, was giving himself dictatorial powers.

Cabinet ministers were embarrassed into action.

Last week, they voted to freeze the amendment and retain all power to declare war, even in extreme circumstances, in the cabinet�s hands.

Given that the normal interpretation of the phrase, �power to declare war,� would not include �power to order a strike against an enemy state�s nuclear installations,� no one made the connection between the amended law and the subversive behavior of two Mossad directors. No one realized that the purpose of the amendment was to prevent insubordination at the top levels of the security community. No one realized that the move was a means to ensure Israel�s elected leaders have the minimal authority they require to order the military and the intelligence services to take actions they deem necessary to ensure the national security of Israel.

But now, with Pardo�s interview, and recalling Dagan�s subversive actions, the need for the amendment is obvious.

It is past time for Israel�s political leaders to rein in our generals. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.

Israel�s civilian responsibility for Gaza ended the moment the last soldier shut the gate.

Hamas is not Israel�s enemy because it lacks money or electricity. It is Israel�s enemy because it is a jihadist terrorist group committed to the annihilation of the Jewish people. No amount of free electricity or medicine will change this basic truth.

Hamas will not transfer the bodies of Israel�s fallen soldiers or release the Israelis it holds hostage because Israel gives it money or concrete. Hamas will not embrace Israel if Israel purifies the Gaza water supply which Hamas deliberately polluted by over-drilling.

The fact that the IDF General Staff hasn�t figured this out does not speak well of our generals� cognitive capabilities.

In response to Pardo�s revelations, Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan told Israel Radio on Thursday morning, �It seems problematic to me that the head of the most secret security organization we have is describing the [national security] decision- making process. And the fact that he placed doubt in the legality of the orders he received from Israel�s prime minister seems deeply problematic to me.

Erdan added, �If security or intelligence officials began questioning their orders, I assume they did great damage to Israel�s deterrence. Everyone who undermined Benjamin Netanyahu�s ability to advance his policies toward Iran over time has been deeply wrong.�

Over the past several months, the IDF General Staff�s handling of Hamas�s offensive along the border, like its handling of this week�s rocket and mortar offensive, has been marked by a lack of creativity.

Rather than consider new ways to handle old threats, the IDF repeated the tactics it has used to inconclusive ends for the past decade.

As for Iran, Netanyahu�s revelation of the Mossad�s stunning capture of Iran�s nuclear archive makes clear that Mossad officers have the capacity to do the impossible. Had Dagan and Pardo unleashed those capabilities in 2010 and 2011 rather than subverting Netanyahu�s authority, there is every reason to believe that Iran would not constitute the multidimensional threat to Israel it poses today.

Lt. Goldin�s parents, Simcha and Leah Goldin, told reporters this week that if the cabinet would simply implement its own decision to hold terrorists� bodies, they would have had no need to petition the High Court against it.

They are right, and not just about the bodies of terrorists.

The cabinet � and the Knesset � must take ameliorative action against the security brass to end their subversion of our duly elected leaders. A first step in that direction would be to unfreeze the amendment to the war declaration law and give the prime minister and defense minister the ability to stand up to insubordinate commanders.

# ? Jun 1, 2018 20:38

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Horrible Lurkbeast posted:

C'mon world just one nuke, a small one to decapitat this loving snake of a state. Just one. This poo poo can't keep happening.

I don't think nuking Gaza is the solution here, but you do you.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 09:10

Grape: Nov 16, 2017; Happily shilling for China!

GaussianCopula posted:

I don't think nuking Gaza is the solution here, but you do you.

As a far right German I'm going to assume you'd suggest moving them to a transitional work camp next surely.

Grape fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Jun 2, 2018

# ? Jun 2, 2018 09:13

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Grape posted:

As a far right German I'm going to assume you'd suggest moving them to a transitional work camp next surely.

As a German I suggest learning from our post WW2 history and integrating the Palestinian refugees into their new countries instead of cultivating an eternal refugee status, like Germany did with the refugees from Silesia and East-Prussia.

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# ? Jun 2, 2018 09:29

By popular demand: Jul 17, 2007; IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!

GaussianCopula posted:

I don't think nuking Gaza is the solution here, but you do you.

On the off chance you misunderstood, I'm referring to the Knesset.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 09:29

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

Horrible Lurkbeast posted:

On the off chance you misunderstood, I'm referring to the Knesset.

He didn't, he's a neo nazi.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 09:55

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Disinterested posted:

https://twitter.com/benabyad/status/1002599615336796160

If you haven't memorized her name yet, you will. Everybody is talking about this. She's probably the biggest symbol to emerge out of this whole round of protests.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 11:47

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

Volkerball posted:

If you haven't memorized her name yet, you will. Everybody is talking about this. She's probably the biggest symbol to emerge out of this whole round of protests.

Good. I hope you are right.

But she's not mentioned on any of the front pages of the daily rags that I've seen today.

Imagine if she'd been an israeli nurse shot by someone from hamas (or indeed any palestinian) - it would be top news in every paper. I can't find it anywhere on the bbc news home page.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 12:27

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

Good. I hope you are right.

But she's not mentioned on any of the front pages of the daily rags that I've seen today.

Imagine if she'd been an israeli nurse shot by someone from hamas (or indeed any palestinian) - it would be top news in every paper. I can't find it anywhere on the bbc news home page.

A lot of the politics bigwigs on BBC are tories, so don't hold your breath.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 13:17

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Horrible Lurkbeast posted:

On the off chance you misunderstood, I'm referring to the Knesset.

So you want to use nuclear weapons to kill Jews?

# ? Jun 2, 2018 13:21

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

GaussianCopula posted:

So you want to use nuclear weapons to kill Jews?

Conflating Israel and Jewish people is antisemitic, btw. Also, gently caress off you nazi poo poo.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 13:27

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Miftan posted:

A lot of the politics bigwigs on BBC are tories, so don't hold your breath.

Nevertheless, their I/P coverage is usually serviceable, so this is an unusual omission.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 13:27

Not Operator: Jan 1, 2009; Not A doctor, THE Doctor!

I think it might be exasperated hyperbole, Jack Bauer. That poster probably doesn't even have a nuclear weapon. And stop saying Jew where you mean Israeli, it's super loving weird of you.

Anyway, I'd like to think this nurse's death will change things, but I thought the Mavi Marmara being boarded would be a bigger deal than it was, or those kids who got shelled on a beach for chasing a soccer ball.

I'll be shocked if the guy who shot her even gets a slap on the wrist.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 13:34

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

Good. I hope you are right.

But she's not mentioned on any of the front pages of the daily rags that I've seen today.

Imagine if she'd been an israeli nurse shot by someone from hamas (or indeed any palestinian) - it would be top news in every paper. I can't find it anywhere on the bbc news home page.

Generally western media doesn't go trying to create the big story when it comes to Palestinians. They just report on big stories after they've already been established as big organically through other media. Same sort of dynamic like we saw with the largest media not giving the Trayvon Martin story a second glance until people started protesting. Arab media and Palestinian sympathizers are rallying around her in a big way right now.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 13:34

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Not Operator posted:

Anyway, I'd like to think this nurse's death will change things, but I thought the Mavi Marmara being boarded would be a bigger deal than it was, or those kids who got shelled on a beach for chasing a soccer ball.

The beach bombings were probably the most prominent example of Israeli abuses of the entire protective edge operation. The UN had a fact finding mission on it and Israel had to address it publicly. They even had to go through the motions of an internal investigation who's findings were widely criticized by prominent rights groups. It was a shitshow for Israel and this could very well be another. Every instance like that is a step closer towards Israel becoming a pariah on the international stage.

Volkerball fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Jun 2, 2018

# ? Jun 2, 2018 13:40

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

Not Operator posted:

I think it might be exasperated hyperbole, Jack Bauer. That poster probably doesn't even have a nuclear weapon. And stop saying Jew where you mean Israeli, it's super loving weird of you.

Anyway, I'd like to think this nurse's death will change things, but I thought the Mavi Marmara being boarded would be a bigger deal than it was, or those kids who got shelled on a beach for chasing a soccer ball.

I'll be shocked if the guy who shot her even gets a slap on the wrist.

He won't. There's a guy called John Brown who sort of collects all the times IDF soldiers have killed Palestinians intentionally and gotten away with it because the IDF won't prosecute them, or gotten away with 'minor negligence' as the cause of death. It's pretty bullshit.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 13:50

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Miftan posted:

He won't. There's a guy called John Brown who sort of collects all the times IDF soldiers have killed Palestinians intentionally and gotten away with it because the IDF won't prosecute them, or gotten away with 'minor negligence' as the cause of death. It's pretty bullshit.

Link? Sounds like a useful thread resource.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 13:53

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Elor Azaria got sentenced to 14 months and served 9 for manslaughter after he shot a wounded Palestinian attacker execution style. Ahed Tamimi got 8 for slapping a soldier.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 14:03

Not Operator: Jan 1, 2009; Not A doctor, THE Doctor!

And mind Tamimi got only eight months because she took a plea deal. I'm sure it could have been a lot more. I remember Miri Regev was calling her a terrorist.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 14:08

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

Darth Walrus posted:

Link? Sounds like a useful thread resource.

He mostly posts on Facebook in Hebrew as far as I can tell. Sometimes writes for Ha'aretz but again, in Hebrew.

There was a settler with a history of violence towards soldiers that hit a soldier in the same month Tamimi did and walked away scott free. iirc it was because the judge didn't feel she was actually a danger? I can't be assed looking it up right now.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 14:11

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

https://twitter.com/YousefMunayyer/status/1002876745194835968?s=20

# ? Jun 2, 2018 14:28

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

Filming Israeli troops could be banned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5KPcKDSOFY

# ? Jun 2, 2018 18:15

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Darth Walrus posted:

Link? Sounds like a useful thread resource.

https://972mag.com/tag/license-to-kill/

# ? Jun 2, 2018 19:21

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

Filming Israeli troops could be banned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5KPcKDSOFY

Of course, it's because we don't want people to know about all the good things they're doing, us jews are a very humble people.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 19:22

Grape: Nov 16, 2017; Happily shilling for China!

GaussianCopula posted:

As a German I suggest learning from our post WW2 history and integrating the Palestinian refugees into their new countries instead of cultivating an eternal refugee status, like Germany did with the refugees from Silesia and East-Prussia.

So you're suggesting Gaza and West Bank be integrated into Israel, whom militarily occupies them both in one form or another. Aka, the one state solution.
Nice of you to wander into this thread so versed on the topic.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 19:43

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Volkerball posted:

Every instance like that is a step closer towards Israel becoming a pariah on the international stage.

The outrage-o-meter moved another half-inch towards actual measures being passed. Just three or four light-years to go now.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 19:58

By popular demand: Jul 17, 2007; IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!

I keep hope that Trump will manage to bankrupt the USA and then no more military aid.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 19:59

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

GaussianCopula posted:

As a German I suggest learning from our post WW2 history and integrating the Palestinian refugees into their new countries instead of cultivating an eternal refugee status, like Germany did with the refugees from Silesia and East-Prussia.

Lessons Germans should have learned from WW2: Genocides Bad

Lessons Germans should not have learned from WW2: But forced migrations on basis of ethnic and religious groups are not so bad!

# ? Jun 2, 2018 21:12

Groovelord Neato: Dec 6, 2014

the idf murdered an eight month old and americans wrote op eds about how it was the palestinians' fault. they're never escaping their hell.

# ? Jun 2, 2018 21:57

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

That's awesome for you, but maybe you could stop helping elect Republican politicians in the USA who deny these medical and tuition benefits to American Citizens.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Jun 3, 2018 06:04

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

GaussianCopula posted:

So you want to use nuclear weapons to kill Jews?

Are you really this simple? Did you think that was going to work? That it was a gotcha? Sort yourself out.

# ? Jun 3, 2018 06:56

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

VideoGameVet posted:

That's awesome for you, but maybe you could stop helping elect Republican politicians in the USA who deny these medical and tuition benefits to American Citizens.

Many of these are inaccurate, and also you pay us just to kill palestinians.

# ? Jun 3, 2018 07:45

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

VideoGameVet posted:

That's awesome for you, but maybe you could stop helping elect Republican politicians in the USA who deny these medical and tuition benefits to American Citizens.

What do you think this advert is about, and who do you think wrote it?

# ? Jun 3, 2018 08:27

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Xander77 posted:

What do you think this advert is about, and who do you think wrote it?

it's about the globalists and written by American patriots

duh

# ? Jun 3, 2018 08:32

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 22:39

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

laffo at "source: google"

# ? Jun 3, 2018 09:13

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

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