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tsob posted:Are they though? I mean, for every Amuro, Kamille & Judau you have a Katz, Sarah, Hathaway, Quess etc. There's a lot of bad to middling mobile suit teenage pilots who allow their emotional problems to interfere with their piloting or just don't become that great as pilots, even if they have Newtype powers to enhance them. Thunderbolt even has that ludicrous scene where the Federation deploys a child soldier squadron and they all panic and die horribly the moment they get thrown into combat because it turns out most children and teenagers aren't natural ubermensch mobile suit whizzes.
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Jun 1, 2018 14:39
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i think i've been pretty well convinced that child soldiers are cool and good, actually, thanks for this valuable life lesson gundam!
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Jun 1, 2018 14:40
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Child soldiers are actually incredibly effective killing machines but they cannot be relied upon to create a better society.
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Jun 1, 2018 14:58
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sassassin posted:Child soldiers are actually incredibly effective killing machines but they cannot be relied upon to create a better society. They can transcend human limitations and understanding and become half metal, though.
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Jun 1, 2018 15:39
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chumbler posted:They can transcend human limitations and understanding and become half metal, though. In IBO if child soldiers transcend human limits they go progressively more paralyzed.
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Jun 1, 2018 16:50
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Kanos posted:Thunderbolt even has that ludicrous scene where the Federation deploys a child soldier squadron and they all panic and die horribly the moment they get thrown into combat because it turns out most children and teenagers aren't natural ubermensch mobile suit whizzes. Again with this and apart from how the scene itself is framed in the context of the story, there's really nothing out of the ordinary for sending kids into combat in the OYW.
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Jun 1, 2018 17:56
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Apprentice Dick posted:In IBO if child soldiers transcend human limits they go progressively more paralyzed. Be fair, that's pretty metal itself  Arcsquad12 posted:Again with this and apart from how the scene itself is framed in the context of the story, there's really nothing out of the ordinary for sending kids into combat in the OYW. Yea, it's just surprising we don't see more child soldiers in the One Year War during 0079 honestly. Beyond the White Base crew I mean. Tem Ray and Bright discuss that personnel is strained enough that kids Tem's kids age (i.e. Amuro) are being used by both sides in the introduction scene for both those characters if I recall. It makes sense given the scale of the war and death involved, but it'd still have been nice if more of the Zeon characters had been around that age to highlight just how desperate both sides were getting. Lalah was I suppose, but that was about it for Zeon that I can think of; and even then, Char brings her for reasons other than shortage of pilots. I suppose some unnamed characters, like the guys in "Time, Be Still" might be teenagers. tsob fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 18:03
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The majority of Zeon pilots at A Baoa Qu were flight cadets rushed into service, leading to a poor performance by the Gelgoog squadrons during the fight.
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Jun 1, 2018 18:14
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Arcsquad12 posted:The majority of Zeon pilots at A Baoa Qu were flight cadets rushed into service, leading to a poor performance by the Gelgoog squadrons during the fight. A guy in the control room mentions that the Gelgoogs are performing poorly because they're new recruits when Kycilia questions it, though he assures her they've received training and are buoyed by their patriotism or something if I recall; but we don't actually see any of them in person and I don't recall him even confirming they're teenagers. It's probable given the context, but it's not actually confirmed and more importantly, we don't see them so it's kind of hard to care really.
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Jun 1, 2018 18:18
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Arcsquad12 posted:Again with this and apart from how the scene itself is framed in the context of the story, there's really nothing out of the ordinary for sending kids into combat in the OYW. You know, this idea is thrown around a lot, but is there any material supporting this besides the off-handed discussion involving Kycilia and the Gelgoogs and that one scene in Thunderbolt? The White Base crew was basically a youth club, but they were a gaggle of civilian irregulars brought together by necessity and circumstance rather than an official drafted military unit. Virtually all of the side story material that gives us a broader look at the OYW stars characters ranging from their late teens to late 20s. The youngest member of the 08th MS Team was Michel at 18. Christina was 21 and Bernie was treated as a raw rear end rookie newbie at the age of 19. Even getting into the video games, manga, and more dubiously "canon" material doesn't really change this; the White Dingos are in their mid to late 20s, Agar from Zeonic Front is 26, and Yuu Kajima is also in his 20s. Like aside from literally that one single silly scene in Thunderbolt I don't think it's ever stated or shown that the Federation is raiding junior high schools for troops, and it wouldn't fit with the narrative that the Federation has an overwhelming manpower advantage if they were scraping the barrel for recruits that badly at the same time Zeon was.
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Jun 1, 2018 18:28
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Kanos posted:You know, this idea is thrown around a lot, but is there any material supporting this besides the off-handed discussion involving Kycilia and the Gelgoogs and that one scene in Thunderbolt? The White Base crew was basically a youth club, but they were a gaggle of civilian irregulars brought together by necessity and circumstance rather than an official drafted military unit. Virtually all of the side story material that gives us a broader look at the OYW stars characters ranging from their late teens to late 20s. The youngest member of the 08th MS Team was Michel at 18. Christina was 21 and Bernie was treated as a raw rear end rookie newbie at the age of 19. Even getting into the video games, manga, and more dubiously "canon" material doesn't really change this; the White Dingos are in their mid to late 20s, Agar from Zeonic Front is 26, and Yuu Kajima is also in his 20s. The Federation has the same problem as Zeon, but is coming at it from the opposite direction - it doesn’t have enough trained soldiers for its suits because its manufacturing capacity is so vast that GMs and Guncannons are being pumped out faster than it can scrape together pilots for them. The child soldiers in Thunderbolt are a demonstration of that embarrassment of riches.
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Jun 1, 2018 18:34
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Kanos posted:You know, this idea is thrown around a lot, but is there any material supporting this besides the off-handed discussion involving Kycilia and the Gelgoogs and that one scene in Thunderbolt? The White Base crew was basically a youth club, but they were a gaggle of civilian irregulars brought together by necessity and circumstance rather than an official drafted military unit. Virtually all of the side story material that gives us a broader look at the OYW stars characters ranging from their late teens to late 20s. The youngest member of the 08th MS Team was Michel at 18. Christina was 21 and Bernie was treated as a raw rear end rookie newbie at the age of 19. Even getting into the video games, manga, and more dubiously "canon" material doesn't really change this; the White Dingos are in their mid to late 20s, Agar from Zeonic Front is 26, and Yuu Kajima is also in his 20s. i mean, there's also this bit at the very beginning of the show tsob posted:Tem Ray and Bright discuss that personnel is strained enough that kids Tem's kids age (i.e. Amuro) are being used by both sides in the introduction scene for both those characters if I recall. junior high schools, maybe not, but high schools? at the very least if a 15 year old turns up at the recruiting office they're certainly not saying no
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Jun 1, 2018 18:40
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tsob posted:He might have gotten over being a shut in nerd to live a normal, happy lifestyle, but the same is true of being a child soldier. So if we accept that the end point is the same, ie: he lives a normal happy life. Surely the one where he isn't forced to be a child soldier is the better one? That's all my opinion is really.
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Jun 1, 2018 19:27
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My opinion is that the life you know is better than the life you don't, at least so long as you're happy. Which Amuro seemed to be. I'd also say that despite the trauma, being a child soldier offered him opportunities and experiences he wouldn't be likely to have otherwise.
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Jun 1, 2018 19:44
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i don't think amuro is better off for being a child soldier i think he came out ok despite being a child soldier
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Jun 1, 2018 20:17
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i think that while being a child soldier might not've been a 100% life ruining experience, it's really weird to suggest that amuro being forced into becoming a child soldier is in some fashion a good thing
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Jun 1, 2018 20:26
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ninjewtsu posted:i think that while being a child soldier might not've been a 100% life ruining experience, it's really weird to suggest that amuro being forced into becoming a child soldier is in some fashion a good thing I think he had plenty of opportunity to become something other a soldier in the years between 0079 and Char's Counterattack, along with the time to contemplate that idea but chose to be continue being a pilot and seemed happy with the decision so him being okay with his past makes it fine for him. I'm not advocating for child soldiers, I'm saying it can work out for the good even if it normally doesn't and shouldn't ever happen ideally. tsob fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 20:34
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ninjewtsu posted:i think that while being a child soldier might not've been a 100% life ruining experience, it's really weird to suggest that amuro being forced into becoming a child soldier is in some fashion a good thing If anything being exposed to Bright and the others and forced to come out of his technerd cave was the good thing. It just took some very tragic and traumatizing events to get him out of it and push things along afterwords. "He's not better off for it, but he did turn out good despite it" does seem to be a fairly good summary of Amuro post OWY. The dude has issues, but he's not trying to bombard Earth into a new ice age just to make humanity gently caress off entirely into space or anything else crazy like that. All things considered he still has a fairly positive outlook by CCA despite everything he's seen and experienced first hand.
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Jun 1, 2018 20:37
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i don't know if amuro's later decision to fight against an extinction level event was motivated by nostalgia for his time as a teenaged soldier man i really don't think "good thing amuro was pressed into frontline military service as a child, otherwise the earth would've been blown up by a crazy dude with an asteroid decades later" is really the takeaway from the story of gundam in fact, i find this to be kind of an absurd sentiment
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Jun 1, 2018 20:39
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ninjewtsu posted:in fact, i find this to be kind of an absurd sentiment I think your summary is absurd when he's been fighting for 3 years prior to Char's plan being revealed, and chose to fight in Zeta for a different reason too.
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Jun 1, 2018 20:46
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ninjewtsu posted:i don't know if amuro's later decision to fight against an extinction level event was motivated by nostalgia for his time as a teenaged soldier man I don't have a dog in the Amuro child soldier fight, but Amuro didn't come out of retirement to fight Char at Axis. He made a decision in Zeta that it was no longer appropriate for him to hide from the world and went on active duty again and never stopped.
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Jun 1, 2018 20:48
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tsob posted:I think your summary is absurd when he's been fighting for 3 years prior to Char's plan being revealed, and chose to fight in Zeta for a different reason too. You're missing the point, which is that "amuro chooses to fight again at a later date" doesn't necessitate that amuro is happy about being a child soldier. I think the observation that amuro's experiences as a child soldier had shaped who he became as an adult and had an important role in his maturation is an interesting one. I think extrapolating from that that amuro being a child soldier could be characterized as good is insane, has some fairly uncomfortable inplications, and is also somewhat missing the point of gundam (war is bad, child soldiers are bad)
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Jun 1, 2018 21:04
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ninjewtsu posted:You're missing the point, which is that "amuro chooses to fight again at a later date" doesn't necessitate that amuro is happy about being a child soldier. Thank you. I think we're kinda done here.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:11
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ninjewtsu posted:You're missing the point, which is that "amuro chooses to fight again at a later date" doesn't necessitate that amuro is happy about being a child soldier. I didn't say he was happy with having been one, I said he was okay with it having happened and had found happiness later in life. Those are not the same thing. ninjewtsu posted:I think extrapolating from that that amuro being a child soldier could be characterized as good is insane, has some fairly uncomfortable inplications, and is also somewhat missing the point of gundam. I think that uncomfortable implication is right regardless of how uncomfortable it is. And that presenting an uncomfortable thing as necessary even if it's not right is a good theme for a franchise like Gundam to boot. I'd also say Tomino basically betrayed his own theme by making Amuro's life as a soldier work out as nessecary to the overall well being of billions and that just because it wasn't intended doesn't mean it isn't there (presuming he didn't mean it as you claim). And that one exception doesn't a rule make. As well as repeating that Amuro being okay with his past and happy with his present makes it okay that it happened in that one case, and that were I him I'd probably prefer to take the known present over an unknown but possibly better one. tsob fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 21:15
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Child soldiers are bad actually, you loving weirdo
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Jun 1, 2018 21:57
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I never said they weren't, and have in fact repeatedly said that ideally they shouldn't exist. Hell, this whole argument started partially because I questioned whether teenage pilots in Gundam were actually a good thing in general, because while it worked out in some cases it didn't work out that well in a lot of cases too.
tsob fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 21:57
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This is a dumb conversation. Being a child soldier is never good. That's like half the content of the AU stories.
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Jun 2, 2018 00:47
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The Notorious ZSB posted:This is a dumb conversation. Being a child soldier is never good. That's like half the content of the AU stories. I feel like I must be really terrible at communicating a point, because I've literally never said child soldiers are good but that's all anyone seems to be taking from my posts.
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Jun 2, 2018 01:06
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I tend to agree with tsob on this. As long as Gundam uses child soldiers to motivate exciting and cool action scenes, I do think it will continue to just be another part of the inherent contradictions of shows intending to have anti-war themes also having to sell toys.Improbable Lobster posted:You're really bad at expressing anything besides that apparently Raxivace fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Jun 2, 2018 |
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Jun 2, 2018 01:12
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tsob posted:I feel like I must be really terrible at communicating a point, because I've literally never said child soldiers are good but that's all anyone seems to be taking from my posts. You're really bad at expressing anything besides that apparently
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Jun 2, 2018 01:13
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Keep loving that chicken everybody.
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Jun 2, 2018 01:40
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Amuro benefiting by his time in one year war seems like something that is technically supportable by the text but is so blatantly contrary to the themes of both the original and supporting works that it is obviously not an intended take. And honestly I think you have to really want to support it you really have to buy into pretty specific interpretations of events. I have a hard time imagining anyone adopting it as a read except as a devils advocate argument that TECHNICALLY if you look at the details Amuro MAY (or may not since we never see non-soldier Amuro actually play out) have benefited in terms of his personal growth from his being a child soldier. But here we are.
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Jun 2, 2018 02:32
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Raxivace posted:I tend to agree with tsob on this. As long as Gundam uses child soldiers to motivate exciting and cool action scenes, I do think it will continue to just be another part of the inherent contradictions of shows intending to have anti-war themes also having to sell toys. It's not even necessarily contradictory to the usual anti-war theme in Gundam. "War is horrible, but there are times it's a necessary evil" tends to be the spin for the UC. Having the personal level narrative be "War is a horrible experience, but there are circumstances where it can lead to personal growth" doesn't contradict it as far as I can see, especially if you don't place it as the default. And there's enough counterexamples that it very much isn't. Even aside from the many, many good people who end up dead (including, eventually, Amuro) there's plenty of people like Sayla and Char who only got worse from their experience. (Sayla less so, admittedly) Which leads us back to the start of this whole conversation, and one of the central ironies of Char and Amuro. Char was a man who'd be expected to be a great leader no matter the circumstances, who was driven to madness and self destruction by violence. Amuro was a shut in nerd who, due to very similar tragedy, wound up an empathetic and driven hero, eventually uniting the Earth sphere to perform a miracle. (And yes, of course Amuro could have gotten over being kind of a poo poo through other circumstances, but they would have to be unusual. In this case, war and tragedy provided the unusual circumstances.)
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Jun 2, 2018 04:13
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Why the gently caress would it require unusual circumstances for a teenaged boy to become more mature as he gets older While it's possible that war-less Amuro stays a manchild forever, I don't know why you'd just take that as the matter of fact default course for him. He's a kid who's dad isn't really around for him, so he's kind of a goober and a slob. It's not like he's the UC equivalent of a brony or whatever.
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Jun 2, 2018 05:59
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tsob posted:I feel like I must be really terrible at communicating a point, because I've literally never said child soldiers are good but that's all anyone seems to be taking from my posts. I feel like the crux of pretty much everything you've posted in this conversation is "Amuro was a child soldier, and everything worked out. We don't know what would happen if Amuro wasn't a child soldier, maybe everything wouldn't work out. I'm terrified of the unknown. Therefore: Amuro being a child soldier is cool and good." I don't think gundam needs to dedicate all future appearances of Amuro to having his life forever crippled by his experiences, the fact that being a child soldier doesn't totally ruin him is in no way proof that being a child soldier was a positive for him. this concept that gundam must be in support of child soldiers unless amuro can't drive a car without having flashbacks of his time in the gundam's cockpit is nuts. During peacetime amuro has a decade to digest on his what like, 3 months of being a child soldier, and ultimately (I'd say probably with therapy but isn't Japanese culture kinda weird about that?) Manages to be a functional human being. As an adult, he makes the conscious decision to be a soldier again, which anyone can tell you is a radically different situation from a child having a gun thrust in their hands and being told to shoot people because no one else can carry a gun right now. His time as a child soldier did make him really good at killing people, if you want to look at that as a positive, but amuro becoming a soldier again 1. Is really a situation that shouldn't be necessary, and it's tragic that it was and 2. Directly leads to his death. If there was no war forcing/making it a really good idea for amuro to be a soldier, amuro would be much better off. He probably would have lived a lot longer. but yeah, sure, in the specific context that UC is constantly riddled with wars, the fact that amuro can fight "for the good guys" is pretty nice, and ignores the whole message that he shouldn't have to fight at all. War is bad for him.
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Jun 2, 2018 06:15
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Was it ever shown what Amuro was up to during ZZ? Been years since I’ve watched it but I don’t really remember any of the war with Neo Zeon being shown outside of the Argamas perspective.
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Jun 2, 2018 13:50
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ManSedan posted:Was it ever shown what Amuro was up to during ZZ? Been years since I’ve watched it but I don’t really remember any of the war with Neo Zeon being shown outside of the Argamas perspective. That’s a particularly open question because we saw Karaba (which Amuro was one of the biggest military assets of) get functionally annihilated at Dublin. Maybe he was fighting a guerrilla war in another theatre?
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Jun 2, 2018 13:57
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Isn't moon Gundam supposed to address this, or at least what amuro was up to in the aftermath?
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Jun 2, 2018 15:24
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Amuro was driving motorcycles, and doing drugs, and bedding tons of women (And men!) cause he was super badass during ZZ, y'all should have seen it. Just....too cool.
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Jun 2, 2018 15:49
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Shinjobi posted:Amuro was driving motorcycles, and doing drugs, and bedding tons of women (And men!) cause he was super badass during ZZ, y'all should have seen it. Just....too cool. And had a bunch of kids, one of whom would give birth to Duker Iq, who would take after his grandfather's love of motorcycles to become unstoppable.
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