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It's 1000% Jrod. What "Jill Stein voter" would have links to a bunch of obscure Libertarian think tank pieces handy?
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Jun 2, 2018 17:26
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YggiDee posted:One one hand I feel like Jrod wouldn't bother hiding his identity if he came back? He uses the same username on every site he visits. But also the way this guy steadfastly ignores the entire issue is... Very Jrod. Like at one point or other, if you jump into a forum for the first time and all the thread regulars keep calling you by another name, wouldn't you ask for clarification at any point? At least acknowledge the seemingly mistaken identity? Whoever it is they seem smart enough to get that denying it would only be further evidence they are in fact jrod. So they can't be jrod, clearly. Logic.
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Jun 2, 2018 17:41
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YggiDee posted:One one hand I feel like Jrod wouldn't bother hiding his identity if he came back? He uses the same username on every site he visits. But also the way this guy steadfastly ignores the entire issue is... Very Jrod. Like at one point or other, if you jump into a forum for the first time and all the thread regulars keep calling you by another name, wouldn't you ask for clarification at any point? At least acknowledge the seemingly mistaken identity? Well, I imagine he'd hide his identity given that Jrod is perma'd for attempting credit card fraud. Probably wants to keep his  quote:Whoever it is they seem smart enough to get that denying it would only be further evidence they are in fact jrod. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. God, remember when he came back to his thread and that was his catch phrase for like... three weeks because he kept treating it like some sick burn? Good times.
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Jun 2, 2018 17:41
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Goon Danton posted:When we're calculating a libertarian poster's zero-to-pedophile time, do we include the time they spent on probation for non-pedophile offenses? No, but it counts as time served when they get to prison.
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Jun 2, 2018 18:19
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RealTalk posted:
Right up until 1917, no communist had ever lived that had done a fraction of the evil as the Catholic church. Or killed as much as the East India company. Which is why it's immensely vital that we keep you and yours as far away from all levers of power as possible.
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Jun 2, 2018 18:31
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Caros posted:I'm still not 100% on this guy being Jrod. Some of it is very convincing, his wall of text posting style, for example, is pretty similar, as is his habit of coming back into the thread and saying something along the lines of... actually: Yeah, that pattern of "I want to discuss X" openers sent up a yellow flag for me, but I'm not sold that it's our proselytizing praexological pal come back to preach once more.
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Jun 2, 2018 18:41
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Sephyr posted:Right up until 1917, no communist had ever lived that had done a fraction of the evil as the Catholic church. Or killed as much as the East India company. It really is the dumbest argument. I'm also a huge 'fan' of his 'communism is worse than fascism in total deaths' argument because it ignores the existence of WW2 (and all the deaths that go straight at the Nazi doorstep as a result of it) and the fact that the only reason the Nazi killcount is so comparatively low is that we loving stopped them. If the nazis had won the war they had a plan in place to liquidate 200 million slavs as an opening salvo.
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Jun 2, 2018 18:49
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I was thinking of doing some kind of lexical/semantic analysis to compare the text samples but I'm traveling... maybe can whip something up at the airport tomorrow.
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Jun 2, 2018 18:50
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Caros posted:It really is the dumbest argument. '"Attempted genocide!" Now, honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry? Do they?'
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Jun 2, 2018 18:52
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I was a latecomer to this thread, so this is probably the first time I'm seeing the real-time version of a libert publicly self-flagellating for some unknown purpose, be it the actual Jrod or not. It's quite the sight to behold. It's really impressive how you're able to keep at it, Caros. If I did what you did, after a while I would just lose heart.
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Jun 2, 2018 18:54
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Statist-0 standing by.Morroque posted:I was a latecomer to this thread, so this is probably the first time I'm seeing the real-time version of a libert publicly self-flagellating for some unknown purpose, be it the actual Jrod or not. It's quite the sight to behold. You must cultivate your faith in humanity until you can observe the monsters who try to subvert it in righteousness and unwavering faith. I'm kidding, preserving the best of us is a never ending task.
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Jun 2, 2018 19:06
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It's not surprising a libertarian will ignore that the Nazis intended to kill so many more than the communists ever did. It's like how they're against regulations because until a corporation actually destroys an eco system or kills people they should be allowed to do whatever they want, and even if they do blow up the planet it's alright because you can always sue them in the courts they pay off (because they can, because there's no laws against it, and it's not like the judge gets paid by a neutral party since there's no taxes).
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Jun 2, 2018 19:13
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Caros posted:It really is the dumbest argument. There's also the inconvenient detail that even if we accept the enormously inflated death toll numbers WRT the USSR and China, capitalist countries have killed just as many or more people, which is something that you actually never hear about. The British Empire alone killed more people than Stalin no matter how you look at it.
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Jun 2, 2018 19:19
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Caros posted:RealTalk hasn't really once talked about consent, the NAP or any of his other cargo-cult anarcho nonsense. He's just trying to hide it, and not very well. He mentioned 'time preference' in the climate change thread, he's suggested only aggression makes racism here.
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Jun 2, 2018 19:23
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Morroque posted:I was a latecomer to this thread, so this is probably the first time I'm seeing the real-time version of a libert publicly self-flagellating for some unknown purpose, be it the actual Jrod or not. It's quite the sight to behold. What's funny to me is that his shtick would probably work loving great over on Reddit or in a random news site's comment section, but he has to wade into the loving lions den and try to take on goons who have been forged in online debate tactics.
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Jun 2, 2018 19:24
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Cerebral Bore posted:There's also the inconvenient detail that even if we accept the enormously inflated death toll numbers WRT the USSR and China, capitalist countries have killed just as many or more people, which is something that you actually never hear about. The British Empire alone killed more people than Stalin no matter how you look at it. For ~*some odd reason*~ libertarians seem only to count ideologically-aggravated natural disasters that occur under socialist regimes.
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Jun 2, 2018 19:35
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The utter magic of watching libertarians in LF get usurped socialists via a rigorous campaign of amazing mockery and effort posts is an aspect of the internet I'll always love and never see again. It's almost alarming how much of my worldview was shaped in between laughing fits about King Obama fan fiction, the Ultimate Hustler and the Infratreal vs. Heebie-GBS threads.
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Jun 2, 2018 19:37
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Grammarchist posted:The utter magic of watching libertarians in LF get usurped socialists via a rigorous campaign of amazing mockery and effort posts is an aspect of the internet I'll always love and never see again. It's almost alarming how much of my worldview was shaped in between laughing fits about King Obama fan fiction, the Ultimate Hustler and the Infratreal vs. Heebie-GBS threads. "Now you're immune to rubella."
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Jun 2, 2018 19:38
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Cerebral Bore posted:There's also the inconvenient detail that even if we accept the enormously inflated death toll numbers WRT the USSR and China, capitalist countries have killed just as many or more people, which is something that you actually never hear about. The British Empire alone killed more people than Stalin no matter how you look at it. the lesson to learn from this is that government is the root of all evil
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Jun 2, 2018 19:49
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smoke sumthin bitch posted:the lesson to learn from this is that government is the root of all evil No I am, dingus.
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Jun 2, 2018 19:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:There's also the inconvenient detail that even if we accept the enormously inflated death toll numbers WRT the USSR and China, capitalist countries have killed just as many or more people, which is something that you actually never hear about. The British Empire alone killed more people than Stalin no matter how you look at it. In the unlikely event you get a libertarian to approach intellectual honesty I suspect you'd get something like: the British Empire wasn't capitalist / yes but it was crony capitalism / some other No True Free Market garbage (see also: the most "economically free" countries are slave states)
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Jun 2, 2018 19:58
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Oh dear me posted:He's just trying to hide it, and not very well. He mentioned 'time preference' in the climate change thread, he's suggested only aggression makes racism here. Oh, cool. I was wondering if he was idiot posting in other threads, but I couldn't check due to the post history button being as broken as Lowtax's spine. Edit: quote:But having the debate begin and end by appealing to the authority of climate scientists is insufficient. Climate scientists can explain the relationship between natural phenomenon and make predictions, of widely varying reliability, about future temperatures and the negative externalities to human well-being they believe will result. Fair enough. Okay, yeah, he's probably jrod. I can't be assed to find it but I know he used that line in this thread before at some point. It stuck in my mind because of how loving stupid you need to be that using scientific data to support a position is an appeal to authority fallacy. He also dropped some FEE links and 'a priori' at least once, so yeah. Welcome back fuckface. Caros fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jun 2, 2018 |
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Jun 2, 2018 19:59
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Polygynous posted:In the unlikely event you get a libertarian to approach intellectual honesty I suspect you'd get something like: the British Empire wasn't capitalist / yes but it was crony capitalism / some other No True Free Market garbage I think that's the point of that strategy - If you can get the libertarian to say 'well that wasn't real [whatever],' which they just called an evasion a second ago when you said it about Stalin, you can shift the debate into actual structural and policy questions, rather than an endless game of historical deathcountsmanship.
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Jun 2, 2018 20:10
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Juffo-Wup posted:I think that's the point of that strategy - If you can get the libertarian to say 'well that wasn't real [whatever],' which they just called an evasion a second ago when you said it about Stalin, you can shift the debate into actual structural and policy questions, rather than an endless game of historical deathcountsmanship. Oh, you sweet summer child. We've gotten to the point where, after faced with example after example of bigotry, RealTalk is straight faced arguing that it isn't real bigotry unless you're coming at them with a knife. The idea that he'd actually engage is sort of hilarious.
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Jun 2, 2018 20:15
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Caros posted:Oh, you sweet summer child. Well, yes, that's right. At some point rhetorical strategy stops being the right sort of strategy. But I'm not good at any of that other stuff so everything's a nail to me.
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Jun 2, 2018 20:19
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RealTalk posted:The Neo-cons will continue to be treated as serious intellectuals worthy of respect on cable TV and even MSNBC, the supposedly "progressive" network. How do you square the fact that right-wing extremists are featured prominently on even, as you say, supposedly left-leaning mass media with your claim of dangerous mass censorship of the far right? Given that leftist positions, thinkers, and politicians have been almost universally ignored if not outright opposed by U.S. media for over a century, how can we possibly consider you intellectually honest when you focus on anything other than communists being given equal representation in American public discussion? e: Bonus round! Since you want so badly to talk about the results of political ideology on Russians, can you explain why it took less than 20 years from the fall of the Soviet Union before capitalism led to a far-right dictatorship, and why the majority of Russians wish they could return to communism? Would you agree with the historical evidence that capitalism is simply incompatible with democracy? Mornacale fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jun 2, 2018 |
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Jun 2, 2018 20:27
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Mornacale posted:why the majority of Russians wish they could return to communism? I mean, some russians wish they could return to the reign of Ivan the Terrible..
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Jun 2, 2018 21:32
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Are only libertarians allowed to gently caress watermelons? Do you become a libertarian if you gently caress a watermelon? Asking for a friend.
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Jun 2, 2018 22:12
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WrenP-Complete posted:I was thinking of doing some kind of lexical/semantic analysis to compare the text samples but I'm traveling... maybe can whip something up at the airport tomorrow. Very clever smokescreen, but it's obvious this ironically-named "real talk" is just your latest and greatest jrodbot. Kudos just the same.
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Jun 2, 2018 22:41
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Mornacale posted:the majority of Russians wish they could return to communism? I would love to see some numbers with a reliable source on this; even I am very sceptical about this, and I'm as anti-capitalist as you come without actually being Karl Marx or maybe Gramsci. I did read an article about how a great deal of people, older ones specifically, who lived in former Soviet "republics" think that they were better off of under communism, but I lost the link.
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Jun 2, 2018 23:45
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Why is there even a discussion on which is the shittier authoritarian, genocidal ideology? As far as I know, no prominent person on the Left ever waxes nostalgic over Stalin and Mao, yet our very own president said that literal Nazis were "very fine people". I feel there's some kind of disconnect here...
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Jun 3, 2018 00:13
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aware of dog posted:Are only libertarians allowed to gently caress watermelons? Do you become a libertarian if you gently caress a watermelon? Asking for a friend. Technically no to either of these, but in practice there is no greater expression of libertarianism than ruining a perfectly good source of sustenance for short-term satisfaction. For to truly mix one's labor with the land, you must put your dick in it.
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Jun 3, 2018 01:10
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JustJeff88 posted:I would love to see some numbers with a reliable source on this; even I am very sceptical about this, and I'm as anti-capitalist as you come without actually being Karl Marx or maybe Gramsci. I did read an article about how a great deal of people, older ones specifically, who lived in former Soviet "republics" think that they were better off of under communism, but I lost the link. My understanding of it is that, as terrible as the corrupt Stalinist government was, everybody at least had enough to eat. Not long after the USSR fell and the systems broke down things became less totalitarian but more corrupt and getting enough necessities got difficult. Apparently a lot of Russians still have trouble getting the basics where under Stalin and later administration so long as you weren't getting shipped off to the gulag you were at least cared for. As most people weren't getting sent to prison and were just expected to work in some capacity or another, well, life wasn't luxurious but at least you wouldn't go hungry. After the USSR collapsed, well...not so much. The government of Putin and Pals is hilariously corrupt and doesn't give a poo poo about common Russians.
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Jun 3, 2018 01:52
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ToxicSlurpee posted:My understanding of it is that, as terrible as the corrupt Stalinist government was, everybody at least had enough to eat. Not long after the USSR fell and the systems broke down things became less totalitarian but more corrupt and getting enough necessities got difficult. Apparently a lot of Russians still have trouble getting the basics where under Stalin and later administration so long as you weren't getting shipped off to the gulag you were at least cared for. As most people weren't getting sent to prison and were just expected to work in some capacity or another, well, life wasn't luxurious but at least you wouldn't go hungry. After the USSR collapsed, well...not so much. The government of Putin and Pals is hilariously corrupt and doesn't give a poo poo about common Russians. It really depends on what period of Soviet history you're talking about, frankly. There's a good though difficult to read book by Alexi Yurchak called Everything was Forever, Until it was No More: The Last Soviet Generation about what he terms "late socialism" and what expectations the Soviets of the 1980s had of their government and society (I call it hard to read as Yurchak is an anthropologist heavily into theory and it shows in his writing). It's a very different place than, say, the hero-worker stage of Stalinism or war communism or the stagnation, but through all of them you are right that the state mostly made sure that baseline needs were more or less covered, though often inadequately, and invariably with something running short. I'd argue that even quite late in the game, it wasn't so much a case of corruption (though that surely was widespread) and ineptitude and an overemphasis on political orthodoxy for career advancement over technical competence in your field, though again this is a very broad generalization that only scratches the surface and varies considerably depending on time.
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Jun 3, 2018 02:32
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Captain_Maclaine posted:It really depends on what period of Soviet history you're talking about, frankly. There's a good though difficult to read book by Alexi Yurchak called Everything was Forever, Until it was No More: The Last Soviet Generation about what he terms "late socialism" and what expectations the Soviets of the 1980s had of their government and society (I call it hard to read as Yurchak is an anthropologist heavily into theory and it shows in his writing). It's a very different place than, say, the hero-worker stage of Stalinism or war communism or the stagnation, but through all of them you are right that the state mostly made sure that baseline needs were more or less covered, though often inadequately, and invariably with something running short. I'd argue that even quite late in the game, it wasn't so much a case of corruption (though that surely was widespread) and ineptitude and an overemphasis on political orthodoxy for career advancement over technical competence in your field, though again this is a very broad generalization that only scratches the surface and varies considerably depending on time. I've heard of the idea of "socialist stagnation" before, but I assumed rightly that it was a capitalist canard to try and maintain the status quo - I'd like to know more about this. Funny how when people talk about the Soviet Union, and there is a lot to not like, they never bring up how quickly quality of life grew in the earlier Leninist days, or how quickly they were able to go from a near-total agrarian society to an industrial one. All I am saying is keep in mind the good and the bad... it's almost as if people are cherry-picking and distorting history to fit their own biases/agenda. DarklyDreaming posted:Technically no to either of these, but in practice there is no greater expression of libertarianism than ruining a perfectly good source of sustenance for short-term satisfaction. For to truly mix one's labor with the land, you must put your dick in it. A few weeks ago, I had my first taste of ripe watermelon this season as afters at a sushi place, and before my first bite I literally thought "I hope that a libertarian didn't gently caress this" - not joking in the slightest.
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Jun 3, 2018 02:56
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DarklyDreaming posted:Technically no to either of these, but in practice there is no greater expression of libertarianism than ruining a perfectly good source of sustenance for short-term satisfaction. For to truly mix one's labor with the land, you must put your dick in it. relatedly, this is how I got declared king of a bronze age hick valley hail Orlanth
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Jun 3, 2018 02:59
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JustJeff88 posted:I've heard of the idea of "socialist stagnation" before, but I assumed rightly that it was a capitalist canard to try and maintain the status quo - I'd like to know more about this. iirc there was an economic stagnation in the USSR around the Brezhnev era, is what that usually refers to. JustJeff88 posted:Funny how when people talk about the Soviet Union, and there is a lot to not like, they never bring up how quickly quality of life grew in the earlier Leninist days, or how quickly they were able to go from a near-total agrarian society to an industrial one. All I am saying is keep in mind the good and the bad... it's almost as if people are cherry-picking and distorting history to fit their own biases/agenda. I just finished reading October by Mieville today (read it, is good), and it is definitely worth noting exactly how bad things were at the start of the USSR. Two revolutions set off by a vicious war, followed by an even more vicious civil war funded by both their old enemies and their old allies.
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Jun 3, 2018 03:16
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Goon Danton posted:I just finished reading October by Mieville today (read it, is good), and it is definitely worth noting exactly how bad things were at the start of the USSR. Two revolutions set off by a vicious war, followed by an even more vicious civil war funded by both their old enemies and their old allies. That's good to know. I've read accounts by soviet citizens pre-war talking about how bad things were pre-Lenin and how much their life improved. I remember one young farmer talking about how everyone who didn't have one got a mule, which I know from personal experience are excellent farm animals, if stubborn. As for "stagnation", I think that you were talking about a specific incident and I was talking about a supposed problem with socialist systems. Sorry about that.
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Jun 3, 2018 04:03
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Caros posted:It really is the dumbest argument. My point is not to somehow excuse fascism (as if that actually needs to be said), it's only to point out that people who fear the consequences of a left-wing that goes too far have just historical cause for that concern. Of course I oppose fascism and white nationalism, but if I were to bring up the threat of left-wing authoritarianism I'd be lambasted as a paranoid by the left-wing. Contemporary left-wing protest movements are subsumed with many of the same ideological presuppositions as many twentieth century communist movements. Pointing out that we have to guard against extreme identity politics and radical egalitarianism (equality of outcome) doctrines is the sane thing to do. The twentieth century provides a grim historical record of what happens when radical authoritarian ideologies are allowed to take root. Ya'll are living in a limited, binary spectrum of political debate. If I criticize left-wing authoritarian movements, and the ideological presuppositions that drive them, this doesn't mean I am defending right-wing authoritarian movements. One historical lesson we should learn from 1930s Germany is that in times of crisis, radical authoritarian leaders can rise to power with startling speed. You might cite Donald Trump as an example of this, though I'd argue that his actual policies are not dissimilar from those of Obama or Bush (which doesn't excuse them in the least, only that he's not as much of a departure as is sometimes claimed). But I believe that we should also guard against a violent swing back towards left-wing authoritarian government. To illustrate the potential threat, I cited statistics from the twentieth century that put into context the astronomical death toll caused by communist regimes.
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Jun 3, 2018 04:03
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RealTalk posted:My point is not to somehow excuse fascism (as if that actually needs to be said), it's only to point out that people who fear the consequences of a left-wing that goes too far have just historical cause for that concern. Because as we all know, $15/hour and Medicare 4 All is the first step on the slippery slope to Full Gay Space Communism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfelqZpapZA
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Jun 3, 2018 04:12
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