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Dirk the Average posted:100% this. If I'm a goddamn emperor, I don't want to micromanage 50-60 cities in depth. Let me allocate resources to local development and delegate from there. Your plebs have built 50 clipper factroys in Central Gaul and you are now losing 50 gold a month.
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Jun 5, 2018 17:35
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If steam makes your computer slow how can you play literally any game post 2010
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Jun 5, 2018 17:35
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Dirk the Average posted:100% this. If I'm a goddamn emperor, I don't want to micromanage 50-60 cities in depth. Let me allocate resources to local development and delegate from there. There's an indie game called Stellar Monarch whose mission statement is basically this. "You're an Emperor, you don't have to give a poo poo about all the details, your underlings will handle that while you do the big picture."
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Jun 5, 2018 17:42
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Top Hats Monthly posted:If steam makes your computer slow how can you play literally any game post 2010 For a long time, there was a sizable contingent of people on the Paradox forums who moaned about Paradox moving from the Europa Engine (CK1, Vicky 1, EU2, HoI2, etc) to the Clausewitz engine, because their computers couldn't handle the 3D graphics. Yeah.
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Jun 5, 2018 18:00
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Fintilgin posted:Don't paradox games lack any drm still? So you could literally just boot steam for the initial download and occasional patch, and never ruin it again? Yep. My Paradox games are one of the only Steam games that I can run with Steam closed outright. You learn this when you go without Internet for a week and it turns out Steam will only run in Offline mode for three days before it refuses to activate. All you have to do is locate the launcher file in the Steam folders and every one of 'em will just start right up.
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Jun 5, 2018 18:37
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Hot take from 2003
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Jun 5, 2018 18:39
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I like building buildings. I like seeing the big numbers on the menu, clicking it, getting that satisfying noise and seeing the province change color.
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Jun 5, 2018 18:55
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fspades posted:Hands up, who enjoys building buildings in Paradox games? And no I don't mean the unique buildings or the ones that are sorta expensive and special. I mean the basic ones that you have to build AND upgrade in every province repeat ad nauseam. The ones you have to click through manually, because even though you give no thought whatsoever to them the AI can't figure out how to do it so they can't be automated in a satisfying manner. I liked buildings in HttT (or DW if you mod out the magistrate cost  ) where you would just click on the list until you either ran out of money or provinces to build the building in, and if you had many provinces they'd make a big difference to your country's strength.I am fully aware that I'm weird though
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Jun 5, 2018 18:55
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EU4 buildings are cool and good and the building manager makes the pain go away. CK2 buildings are boring as gently caress.
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Jun 5, 2018 18:59
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I don’t think you’re weird at all, I think people who dislike buildings are in the minority, hence them being in basically every strategy game. Especially in something like EU where there’s precious little else you interact with internally, having something you yourself customized in your empire adds a lot more personal weight to it than if it’s just a wash of interchangeable provinces. I guess I wouldn’t mind seeing them be abstracted out into something us aloof monarchs would actually be totally down with doing ourselves, like a prestige project or maybe even founded cities or something rather than us manually planning the outhouses and whatever, but having that connection is super important, for some people anyway. This is speaking as someone who hasn’t done game design for a day in my life tho so
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Jun 5, 2018 19:01
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Most buildings are basically just cookie clicker in EU4. There's absolutely nothing interesting or cool about them.
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Jun 5, 2018 19:33
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And yet cookie clicker was a loving phenomenon
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Jun 5, 2018 19:35
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That's because people have broken brains, not because it was interesting or cool.
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Jun 5, 2018 19:45
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Buildings are cookie clicker but that's ok I guess. There's a reason there are good and bad spreadsheet games and I can't exactly feed my need for larger numbers by just typing 999999*999999 into a calculator over and over.
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Jun 5, 2018 19:47
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CK2 buildings at least had some purpose with how it affected army compositions. EU4s is just looking at a sheet saying which one gives the most money and dumping trade buildings in primary trade ports.
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Jun 5, 2018 19:47
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Our little quirky strategy game company has come a long way. Paradox just announced that they're purchasing a 100% stake of Hairbrained Schemes.
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Jun 5, 2018 19:53
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Quarterly expansions for Battletech? I'm so down. 
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Jun 5, 2018 19:56
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Rynoto posted:CK2 buildings at least had some purpose with how it affected army compositions. EU4s is just looking at a sheet saying which one gives the most money and dumping trade buildings in primary trade ports. i feel like this is an oversimplification of the strategic thinking involved with spending money on buildings rather than other stuff, developing specific provinces to get building slots, etc. just for the sake of making a pithy point building management in EU4 is not brainless and it's silly to pretend otherwise, even if building the buildings is not a very deep system in itself
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Jun 5, 2018 19:58
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Monthly dlc Mechs that have slightly different mechanics that don't work with any other mechs.Jazerus posted:i feel like this is an oversimplification of the strategic thinking involved with spending money on buildings rather than other stuff, developing specific provinces to get building slots, etc. just for the sake of making a pithy point Also what. Buildings are useless up until the point you have a good monthly surplus and then you just build temples in whatever has the biggest bonus for an even bigger bonus. That's it. If you're building tall then you follow the same formula but also dump mana into the province for more slots. The logic behind upgrading is simple enough it could just be automated fully. Rynoto fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 19:58
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eu4 in general is "here's a bunch of not particularly complex systems, but they come together to form a complex game"Rynoto posted:Monthly dlc Mechs that have slightly different mechanics that don't work with any other mechs. what about barracks, universities, and manufactories? what if you have a war coming up and would rather spend the money on that, but the automated building system decides now is the perfect time to blanket your provinces with temples? buildings have strategic implications beyond the silo of their own system.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:03
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Manufactories are a gimmick sink for when you have more money than god. Universities only matter if you're going tall and yet again have more money than god. Barracks are useful on the handful of high mil provinces you'll run across - unless you're going tall again.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:05
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Tomn posted:There's an indie game called Stellar Monarch whose mission statement is basically this. "You're an Emperor, you don't have to give a poo poo about all the details, your underlings will handle that while you do the big picture." There's also MoO, where upgrades in industry, unlike in MoO2, just required you to tell the planetary governor to spend time building factories. Colonizing a planet late-game in MoO is dead simple - toss some funding in industry, send colonists from other planets, spend some reserve treasury money. MoO2 required you to click several dozen times to queue up all the loving different iterations of each factory, and then if you wanted to spend money, you had to spend money each turn to buy out the factory one damned building at a time. It was a step backwards from a very elegant system (and don't even get me started on Stellaris or GalCiv with the way tile management works). I like the idea of investing money in the economy vs keeping the money for a rainy day or using it for mercs. It's a good dynamic. I do think there are better ways to go about it than building each individual building.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:05
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Rynoto posted:Manufactories are a gimmick sink for when you have more money than god. Universities only matter if you're going tall and yet again have more money than god. Barracks are useful on the handful of high mil provinces you'll run across - unless you're going tall again. Have you ever played outside of Europe?
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Jun 5, 2018 20:10
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Rynoto posted:Manufactories are a gimmick sink for when you have more money than god. Universities only matter if you're going tall and yet again have more money than god. Barracks are useful on the handful of high mil provinces you'll run across - unless you're going tall again. tall nations are not the only nations that develop provinces or build non-money buildings, and manufactories are not nearly as niche as you imply. i'm starting to get the feeling that you don't have a complete grasp on how all of the systems fit together in this game. i'm happy to admit that there's probably a better solution to simulating internal investment, but unlike stellaris tiles, eu4's building system and how it interacts with development has significantly impacted my decisions many times while playing the game - it's not something you can just gloss over unless you are playing a very easy nation. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 20:12
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Drone posted:Our little quirky strategy game company has come a long way. Paradox just announced that they're purchasing a 100% stake of Hairbrained Schemes. Welp.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:16
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Jazerus posted:buildings have strategic implications beyond the silo of their own system. Spending money on buildings has greater implications, yes, but the actual building system does not. The building system could be replaced entirely by two buttons that say "spend 100 ducats to increase your income by 0.1" and "spend 100 ducats to increase your manpower by 100" and literally nothing would change. Hence the cookie clicker comparison.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:17
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Fister Roboto posted:Spending money on buildings has greater implications, yes, but the actual building system does not. The building system could be replaced entirely by two buttons that say "spend 100 ducats to increase your income by 0.1" and "spend 100 ducats to increase your manpower by 100" and literally nothing would change. Hence the cookie clicker comparison. That's not quite the case due to limited slots and tell development system.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:20
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Nah because there’s a limited number of slots and you in theory have to deal with devastation and autonomy and all sorts of other stuff too which can have broad implications. I’m not gonna pretend it’s a deep system or anything but there’s still a bit to it. I maintain that the actual depth is mostly beside the point though.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:20
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Jazerus posted:tall nations are not the only nations that develop provinces or build non-money buildings, and manufactories are not nearly as niche as you imply. i'm starting to get the feeling that you don't have a complete grasp on how all of the systems fit together in this game. Manufactories especially are a big (500) early investment that could be better spent on cheaper and more powerful temples (100) or keeping the war machine going to increase your income through raw province levels. Or gold. The dumb things shouldn't even be built until late unless you're going trade empire anyways. Developing provinces outside of gold bearing ones is likewise a massive waste of early mana that could be better used on your conquesting to yet again grow more powerful. This all assumes you're actually going for efficiency. If not then it really doesn't matter what you do or build because the game is more than easy enough to carve out an empire either way. E: Eh, will be a bit less mean Rynoto fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 20:20
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Koramei posted:Nah because there’s a limited number of slots and you in theory have to deal with devastation and autonomy and all sorts of other stuff too which can have broad implications. How so? What broad implications do building slots have? What impact does devastation have other than making it a temporarily bad idea to build somewhere?
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Jun 5, 2018 20:27
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Devastation and autonomy, and the potential of losing the province, have broad implications. Also @ guy trashing manufactories: you are totally wrong
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Jun 5, 2018 20:28
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Rynoto posted:Manufactories especially are a big (500) early investment that could be better spent on cheaper and more powerful temples (100) or keeping the war machine going to increase your income through raw province levels. Or gold. who's talking about early on? most of the manufactories don't even unlock until mid-game. conquest is often the best route to having more stuff, it's true, but depending on your circumstances you're not always going to have soft targets available. monarch points also have caps, and if you have a good ruler conquest is often not a good enough sink to prevent capping out - thus, development. the reason i said i felt that you didn't have a full grasp on how everything fits together wasn't to be mean - it's just that your perspective seems like it doesn't take into account anything but the ideal scenario. if you're really pushing the envelope on efficiency, you will very often run your empire so ragged that the small decisions you make about how to spend your excess gold and monarch points decide whether you collapse under your own ambition.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:31
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Manufactories are great as soon as they’re unlocked and they snowball from there. Them being overpowered has been a consistent complaint for years now. Spending on expansion is normally straight better than on building, but manufactories are (situationally) the exception.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:32
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Yeah manufactories are 100% mandatory to build no matter where you are in the world, prioritizing on provinces that get you the most bang for the buck after you have built workshops in them. Delaying them too long can end up crippling you by the mid-late game. Of course this is a general statement and sometimes there are better uses for your money in the short term but if you play MP you'll see quickly who neglected manufactories and what the consequences of that can be.
bees everywhere fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 20:33
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Koramei posted:Devastation and autonomy, and the potential of losing the province, have broad implications. Again, what broad implications? You keep saying that without explaining what they are. As I see it, devastation, autonomy, and the risk of losing a province only make it so that I don't want to build there. That's the exact opposite of broad.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:33
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What if your richer areas are in a place that’s gonna get devastated by wars? The whole fact you have to consider your geography in them changes a lot.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:35
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It would affect my decision, yeah, but that's still not a broad implication. It's still just choosing between building in province A to increase my income by 0.1 or province B to increase it by 0.11.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:40
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You’re being weirdly pedantic. In any case, a button that gave you gold would not be equivalent to the building system. I’m guessing you were being intentionally hyperbolic but there is still something to the mechanics, and imo that’s not the only important part about them anyway.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:42
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The only difference between a cookie clicker button to increase your income and what we have now is that it gives you a list of buttons, and you could, for whatever reason, choose to push the wrong one. You can throw in as many complicating factors as you want and that doesn't change.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:49
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You could as well say that about every single part of the game. There’s numerous situations where there’s not a single obvious right choice.
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Jun 5, 2018 21:00
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