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Hodgepodge posted:This is innaccurate. Think about it: the 10 family heads came in as a unit, along with Arlene and V. Furthermore, being climbed by "irregulars" is the normal function of the Tower. They're only abberations from the perspective of Jahad's regime. Are you sure that SIU didn't just mean that in the sense that "Irregular" is just defined as "anyone climbing the Tower who isn't a Regular"? Regardless of anything else, Rachel is definitely the only Irregular we've seen who shows zero advantages in terms of strength and shinsoo manipulation. By all appearances, she progresses at about the same rate as a completely average Regular. Unless SIU specifically said "the Tower also chose to let Rachel in" (and I don't think he did, judging from what I'm seeing), I don't really see any reason to doubt or confirm the idea that she just followed Baam in. For all we know, all of Jahad's cohort were also "allowed" in, or maybe the Tower intended for Rachel to enter but she just doesn't have any advantages in terms of shinsoo-manipulation or any other combat abilities. I guess it's possible Rachel is just the first irregular who isn't abnormally strong in combat for one reason or another. At the very least, it definitely doesn't make sense to assume Rachel can become strong like Baam or some of the other irregulars just because she's an irregular.
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May 31, 2018 23:26
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I also don't see anything super against the idea of the Tower letting Rachel in in some sort of rejection of the god outside the Tower's plan.
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May 31, 2018 23:32
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The idea that the Tower lets Irregulars it needs in comes from Alumik Edrok, and it isn't really certain that the translation was precise enough to take that as a hard rule. It had earlier been established that Irregulars open the doors to the Tower themselves, so on some level he must have been speaking figuratively. Either destiny only leads those the Tower needs to it, or he was referring to Irregulars deemed unecessary being killed on the second floor in the current system. SUI has literally, directly stated that Rachel is an Irregular. There was some debate because Headon calls her "unchosen": quote:For the longest time, there was an extensive debate in the fanbase over whether or not Rachel qualified as an Irregular, stemming from the unusual way Headon addressed her in Chapter 76 - the fact that Headon specifically said that she was "not chosen" (an unusual wording, since by the normal definition all Irregulars are unchosen) and debates over just what it meant to "open the door" led many to believe that either Rachel or Baam was not an Irregular. SIU finally confirmed that both were Irregulars in a live chat with fans, but what, if anything, was meant when Headon said she was 'not chosen' (and, by extension, implied that Baam was) remains unknown. Which seems rather silly because he may have just been calling her an Irregular with that turn of phrase in the first place. She also displays other qualities of Irregulars, such as characters instinctively noticing something special about her and Guides not being able to read her destiny. It's also worth noting that it is foolish to assume that whatever plans are in place for Baam, she has not been part of from day 1. She was chosen as his only human contact before entering the Tower. Given the level of 4-d chess necessary to put these sort of plans into motion, it's silly to assume that someone placed in such a key role is just some random element. Whoever picked her definately chose someone who would lead Baam straight to the Tower and give him motivation to climb. Convenient that it was someone who then divested herself of the incredible influence she had over him as quickly as possible, isn't it? People rarely consider that her betrayal could have been engineered precisely to ensure that as strong a wedge as possible would be placed between Baam and Rachel. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 01:04
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I fully expect Headon to be the secret final boss, to be frank.
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Jun 1, 2018 01:15
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Gologle posted:I fully expect Headon to be the secret final boss, to be frank. He's certainly up to something. Look at the guy- despite the aquatic motif of the guardians, there's something about his face that seems almost noble. Canine, in fact. Yes, it is evident that his intelligence and wit are of the highest caliber. Since Rachel's debt to him was called in by FUG, we know that he's tight with them. He's also in a key role in the formal structure of the Tower. (Note that Baam's first test is actually entirely for Rachel's benefit, which we learn once we see that Headon had her watching. For the top administrator, knowing that Yuri was coming would be simple, and predicting her actions not really that far afield of what can be done in the Tower).
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Jun 1, 2018 01:32
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Hodgepodge posted:The idea that the Tower lets Irregulars it needs in comes from Alumik Edrok, and it isn't really certain that the translation was precise enough to take that as a hard rule. It had earlier been established that Irregulars open the doors to the Tower themselves, so on some level he must have been speaking figuratively. Either destiny only leads those the Tower needs to it, or he was referring to Irregulars deemed unecessary being killed on the second floor in the current system. Rachel being explicitly stated to be an Irregular doesn't contradict anything I said; all I said is that an Irregular is only defined as "a non-Regular that is climbing Tower," and it's entirely possible for Rachel to have entered the Tower "on Baam's coat-tails" while still being just as much of an Irregular as he is (though I realize this isn't confirmed or denied yet, so it's not something I'm asserting; I'm just saying it's possible). I also doubt Rachel is a random element, but that doesn't equate to being chosen by the Tower; it could be the mechanications of either people or the God(s) outside of the Tower as well. So a situation where someone other than the Tower (or its "agents" like Headon) chose Rachel and Rachel entered the Tower in a way where she wasn't "chosen" by the Tower itself is entirely possible. I agree that it's very plausible she was selected solely to act as a motivation for Baam, though. I definitely don't think she was just some totally random person. I just think that it's possible for her to have been chosen by something other than the Tower, and thus not have the sort of advantages other Irregulars have had. One other thing sorta related to this is that I don't think stuff like Guides not being able to read her destiny somehow implies she has the other special properties other Irregulars have. It seems like not being able to read her destiny is just a natural result of her not being "a being of the Tower." The situation I'm suggesting is one where the special control of shinsoo and other abilities folks like Baam or Mazino have is a result of being "chosen" by the Tower, while the "obviously being an alien entity whose destiny can't be read by Guides" is just a natural result of not being a Tower denizen.
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Jun 1, 2018 04:11
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Isn't the guides "not being able to read her" more of a Emily thing than a Rachel thing? I'm almost certain I've heard that mentioned in-comic before. P.S. It was from the last page but someone was arguing about the 1st floor (Haedon floor) test for Baam and how it was so rigged in Bam's favor and I wanted to weigh in: Baam didn't pass the test because he had a princess help him, and because an ignition weapon responded to him, he passed it because he showed the bravery to leap into the eel cage. If Yuri hadn't shown up he still would've passed, but Haedon would've stopped him before he reached the point of actual danger. https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-1-ep-1-1fheadons-floor/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=2 Look at the last few images, Haedon says "Welcome to the Tower", Baam has already passed the test before Yuri has even been introduced. https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-1-ep-77/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=78 Rachel definitely has some important role though, and at this point I could do nothing more than speculate. You can bet your bottom bum cheek though that I'll be here ready to take in every detail until we find out, and beyond. PPS. I've finally gotten 2 other people irl hooked on TOG, and it's interesting seeing their perspective of things, reading years worth of material in just a few months 
Hirethor fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 04:54
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Ytlaya posted:Rachel being explicitly stated to be an Irregular doesn't contradict anything I said; all I said is that an Irregular is only defined as "a non-Regular that is climbing Tower," and it's entirely possible for Rachel to have entered the Tower "on Baam's coat-tails" while still being just as much of an Irregular as he is (though I realize this isn't confirmed or denied yet, so it's not something I'm asserting; I'm just saying it's possible). The extraordinary abilities of Irregulars are also likely in large part due to their not being from within the Tower as well. Obviously the abilities of Irregulars vary, but that is the one thing that defines them: the Tower and its Shinsoo responds to those born outside of it than those born within it (although Baam is a weird case since he was technically born on what is now the Floor of Death and then reborn outside the Tower). Most importantly, Rachel is like any other Irregular in that she has the right to use Shinsoo without an Administrator's permission, and is not affected by contracts such as the one which prevents inhabitants of the Tower from killing Jahad. The whole thing about the Tower "choosing" people and people opening the door seems shaky due to translation difficulties. Meanwhile, people fail to pay attention to what is in front of their face: we see Baam and Rachel enter the Tower, and Baam doesn't even want to open the Tower until Rachel has opened the Door and is vanishing. Headon says that the Tower did not choose Rachel, but everything he does in the scene in question is blatantly manipulative and he is repeatedly shown to be deceptive for both presumptive gain and simply for his own amusement. From the moment Rachel shows up, he insults her and praises Baam in order to make her resent Baam so she will betray him, whereas when she sees Baam decide to attempt the test she is distraught at the idea of him being hurt. In other words, Headon is lying. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 04:57
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Hodgepodge posted:... I don't have access to the blog posts anymore (so I can't cite sources) but I think I remember SIU saying that Baam was the one that opened the door and Rachel kinda just fell in. She didn't open that door herself.
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Jun 1, 2018 05:11
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Hirethor posted:I don't have access to the blog posts anymore (so I can't cite sources) but I think I remember SIU saying that Baam was the one that opened the door and Rachel kinda just fell in. She didn't open that door herself. It's always frustrating discussing Manwha because of that; you remember some important point by the author but can't remember where in the maze of blog post and after-chapter comment translations you saw it. That doesn't make much sense visually, unless the Tower reacted to Baam's pretense and opened automatically for him. Which doesn't sound much like the normal process, but it is Baam we're talking about, and it's clear that he's important to the Tower on the sort of level that would allow that.
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Jun 1, 2018 05:44
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Hodgepodge posted:It's always frustrating discussing Manwha because of that; you remember some important point by the author but can't remember where in the maze of blog post and after-chapter comment translations you saw it. I hear ya, but I also think that people may be taking the "tower choosing what it wants" thing a bit too literally. That idea I don't have any evidence for at all other than a gut feeling really, but on the one hand they're saying "these certain people opened the door themselves" and also saying "the tower chose these people to be not chosen". We do know from SIU that The Tower is only one part of a grand universe with Axis Users, so the whole idea of The Tower choosing people on it's own could be thrown out by the "Author/Axis User" of the tower choosing to allow or disallow whatever happens. Ignoring the whole "Axis User" thing, just as a reader, I like the idea more of these Irregulars showing up and throwing things for a loop rather than "The chosen UNchosen". And also, the only people that have said that the tower chooses what it needs have been people from inside the tower, so it could be a case of a big fish in a small pond explaining the world. We don't need to necessarily take their word as gospel.
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Jun 1, 2018 06:12
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I went and read the conversation where Alumik says that the Tower only opens its gates for someone it needs, and what he actually says is that it "doesn't open its gates for just anybody. It only opens its gates to 'something' that it needs." He lists change, stability, revolution, etc. The context is that he's telling Evan that Baam is alive after his supposed death at the end of part 1, and explaining that an Irregular can survive even when it seems impossible, even when they seem to possess no special ability that would allow them to do so. Alumik and Evan are Guides, so they have insight into how the Tower works, but also see it in what we might think of as mystical terms (ie, personification of the Tower, etc). Being able to predict the future is also just daily life for them, although Guides themselves can't do so for Irregulars. Alumik, the more experienced Guide, seems to be saying that the Tower won't bother letting someone in who will just die a few floors in; but this is not determined by their measurable capabilities or potential, it has to do with the actions they will take and the effects those actions will produce. With regards to Rachel, I think it's rather improbable that the Tower would accidentally let someone in, even assuming someone else opened the door. In practice, of course, we know that the Tower let her in because she was fated by its ultimate overgod, SUI, to be the antiheroic secondary protagonist of the story. Alumik, like all cryptic mystics, is effectively a character who exists to convey foreshadowing by speaking for the author without breaking the 4th wall. In this sense, the observation that she has precisely the qualities she needs to do whatever the author needs her to do is just observing that SUI isn't incompetent. The notable thing about Rachel is actually that she is in the story to serve as a foil to the shonen elements of the story. In other words, the special quality that the Tower/story needs from her is that she isn't a shonen character defined by her unique special powers and her plucky determination to do the right thing. In that sense, she's actually much less like Jahad and more like Baam's father than Baam himself, in the sense of being closer to the experiences of ordinary people. Despite being an Irregular, she has been put in the shoes of normal inhabitants of the Tower who have to seek out patrons within the existing power structure and has to deal with the pain of putting herself before others because the alternative isn't actually finding some magical out, it's giving up. Part of the hate for Rachel is that her character is there to critique the ideology of shonen stories in precisely this sense, not by presenting some revolutionary alternative, but just by pointing out that real people don't get special powers that let them subdue oppressors because they grew as a person, and advancement in life is more likely to come because you cut a deal and sold out a friend than because you trained hard and were a loyal person. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 11:16
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Ytlaya posted:She is clearly good enough with people that she's managed to make her allies invested in her as a person, though, and that counts for something. Unlike Baam, she didn't have a "try hard and become strong on my own" option, because she isn't a ridiculously powerful child of prophecy like he is. Like I said in the other post, this is the only way she could successfully climb in the first place; there is no feasible "Rachel does things herself" option, because she obviously isn't very talented (in combat, anyways) and talent is paramount to success in the Tower. She is also in a very precarious position. While she's managed to avoid too many close life or death scenarios, she is heavily reliant on people helping her and doesn't have personal power to fall back on if she somehow fell out of their favor. I would much rather be in Baam's position, where he at least has the ability to fight against threats, than hers. To all of this I say: Lee Soo. He's everything Rachel could've been if her ego wasn't in her way. But she doesn't have to develop in any significant way like Lee Soo did because all the luck in the world keeps falling into her lap.
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Jun 2, 2018 02:48
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https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-304/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=385 I actually wonder if this will be a shifting point in the series, considering the exponential changes to our main character within just the last few floors. He may finally be reaching that point of "no matter how small a baby shark is, it can't swim with the sardines..." and I wonder how it'll affect relationships for him from now on. Edit: Or, for the "new/official" translation: "Even if it's small, he's a baby tiger. He can't run with house cats..." (S1 Ep.49 / Ch50) Hirethor fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 05:25
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Rip and tear, Bam, rip and tear... I am also wondering how will the administrators on the different floor react to basically a baby admin coming to them
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Jun 4, 2018 07:37
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The first thorn having it's own skills is rather ominous.
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Jun 4, 2018 08:33
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I want data Jahad to join the Baam Harem and go kick his real self's rear end.
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Jun 4, 2018 08:50
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Hinting really hard at Jahad being redeemable here. I mean, how happy can the guy be, he's so stimulated by being a king that he's spent the last few thousand years asleep. It's probably clinical depression due to boredom.
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Jun 4, 2018 09:09
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He could always have kept climbing the tower instead
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Jun 4, 2018 09:19
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Jose posted:He could always have kept climbing the tower instead How could that compare to his new hobby, collecting shoes? In case no one remembers, that's a metaphor for his Princesses, which itself seems to be a dig at harem anime protagonists.
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Jun 4, 2018 09:23
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Hirethor posted:
eh thats clearly the reason that khun and rak also got power ups. they'll obviously not be on baam's level but should be on ran/anaks
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Jun 4, 2018 11:08
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I think that it's important to note that Rachel isn't suddenly entirely without talent 'unlike every other irregular'. The comic, and blog posts, have made it very clear that the family heads didn't start out enormously OP, but walked into an untamed tower and were forced to work together and grow to be quite amazingly powerful, just to survive. Besides Zahad, nothing has pushed the idea that the family heads walked in and were badasses who easily conquered floors like the irregulars since then. Rachel isn't a Mazino, or a Baam, or an Axis User. But is she actually that low in talent? People have remarked multiple times through the comics that she seems pretty great with her lightbearer stuff, despite her never pushing herself to train in the way Khun does for the same role. Is she really a talentless hack like Headon likes to claim she is? Or was that him insulting and pushing her for his own reasons? It's quite clear that capabilities wise, even if she isn't a Khun tier threat, she could match or beat most of Baam's companions, besides the Princesses + Khun, in terms of pure talent and but work would be needed to be better.
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Jun 4, 2018 15:59
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I didn't read any of the Rachel posts so I'm just going to assume everyone forgot about the sting ray of death. Rachel is going to be the antihero that kills the hero-turned-psycho, the Twenty-fifth Baam
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Jun 4, 2018 18:07
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Coffee Mugshot posted:I didn't read any of the Rachel posts so I'm just going to assume everyone forgot about the sting ray of death. Rachel is going to be the antihero that kills the hero-turned-psycho, the Twenty-fifth Baam "I can control the fabric of nearby spacetime." "I have a stingray pet." That'll kill Steve Irwin, rip, but not Baam.
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Jun 4, 2018 18:25
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Two Tone Shoes posted:To all of this I say: Lee Soo. Unlike Lee Soo, Rachel climbing the Tower was entirely predicated on taking the deal with Headon. Rachel's options were basically "die or accept the help (or leave the Tower I guess)," so I'm not sure if it really makes sense to consider that "luck"; unlike Lee Soo, she didn't have the option of climbing the Tower normally, since she wasn't a Regular. And Lee Soo also benefited heavily from meeting many other talented people, who he then befriended. Which isn't that unlike what's ended up happening with Rachel, since some of the people with her now are following her voluntarily. The only difference between those situations is that Rachel was given (some of) her companions, but I don't really see how that's somehow her fault (due to the aforementioned "she had no choice" plus the fact that it's common sense to take all the advantages you can get in the Tower). In general, I think this attitude is completely unjustified and heavily motivated by the reader having a biased perspective with Baam being the protagonist (so they feel protective of him and want to hate his enemies as a result). As I said in my earlier post, we don't really know Rachel. We don't know her history or full motives, so it's far too early to assume she's just some terrible selfish person. As also mentioned before, she is not particularly immoral by the standards of the Tower, and has actually shown more difficulty with stuff like killing than probably most other Tower people. Many other characters are absolutely worse people who have done worse things, like, say, Aka Williams. (The only reason I feel the need to comment on this stuff is that I think Rachel is actually a very interesting and unique character that basically falls outside of all the typical shounen archetypes, so it kinda annoys me when people try to shoe-horn her as just being some selfish villain.) KittyEmpress posted:It's quite clear that capabilities wise, even if she isn't a Khun tier threat, she could match or beat most of Baam's companions, besides the Princesses + Khun, in terms of pure talent and but work would be needed to be better. Do we really have any evidence that she isn't working hard? The only thing I can think of is Koon making some comment about her not improving much, but Koon is about as far as you can get from an unbiased observer (the dude probably hates Rachel more than anyone else in the entire setting). From what I can recall, the only thing we have to go by is her brief fight against Koon, where she seemed reasonably impressive and started out confident, which implies she had been practicing pretty hard (though we don't really have anyone to compare her against other than Koon, who is abnormally good).
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Jun 4, 2018 20:29
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Ytlaya posted:Unlike Lee Soo, Rachel climbing the Tower was entirely predicated on taking the deal with Headon. Rachel's options were basically "die or accept the help (or leave the Tower I guess)," so I'm not sure if it really makes sense to consider that "luck"; unlike Lee Soo, she didn't have the option of climbing the Tower normally, since she wasn't a Regular. Technically, literally every single Regular skips the first floor by accepting an offer from Headon. Not many people seem to have picked up the point of seeing Baam's test from Rachel's perspective, which wasn't that she wussed out; it was that the absurd difficulty of the test wasn't Headon trying to stop Baam and being foiled by Yuri, it was a show put on by Headon, who knew what would happen with Baam, engineered to make Rachel feel inferior to Baam and put her in Headon's debt. This is also the case with her relative talent; the people who give her gifts and allies aren't just accidentally minimizing her growth and independence, they're stifling it in order to keep her under their thumbs to the greatest degree possible. It's not like anyone involved is an idiot who will go "whoops we accidentally didn't let our pet regular realize her true potential." She's basically under the patronage of the sort of people who wanted to melt Baam into the Thorn to have greater control over it, and her underhandedness is ultimately just her version of Baam's shonen-friendship powers: the best chance for her to get free of other people's doomed attempts to use her as a pawn against King "was already a golden God at this point" Zahard and actually make something worthwhile of her life. It would help if she didn't do dumb poo poo like try to assassinate Khun because... umm.. ??? Like seriously, SUI, what is her motive here? It makes sense when she would gain something, but she just looks stupid this time. I can't even be mad at her.
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Jun 4, 2018 21:38
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can headon travel to floors past the 134th and the reason he appears to be working with FUG is because he never wanted Jahad to stop climbing one of the things i'd kind of like to see is characters getting new items either improved versions of the lighthouses/spears or seeing someone get a lighthouse who wasn't given one at the start of the tower. its never really explained how people get them and why not every ranker has a lighthouse considering their usefulness Jose fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 22:18
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I really don't understand the positions at all since they seem like don't even matter honestly. Like wave controller + light bearer is supposed to be the strongest 2 person team but Khun is being pushed towards spears now cuz light bearer is useless. What can he do with a light house that Bam can't do on his own? And even if it were Khun + a normie once they climbed high enough why couldn't they just do their wave controller stuff with their own light houses and ditch the light bearer for someone that can fight? I guess maybe it's just wave controllers being dumb since they can basically do anything they want at any time
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Jun 4, 2018 22:31
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Ran uses shinsoo to create lightning spears and khun uses them to make ice spears but apparently thats not being a wave controller?
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Jun 4, 2018 22:38
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Ehwa fights exclusively with shinsoo and burns everything around her - not a wave controller Ran uses lightning spears, bigger lightning spears, more lightning spears, other lightning shinsoo attacks - hmmm fisherman? maybe spearbearer? def not wave controller Yuri blows up everything she looks at with shinsoo - def a fisherman Jahad's mastery over shinsoo was so good data eduan thinks going up against him is a lost cause - sounds like a fisherman to me Enryu is such a powerful wave controller he killed a creature thought to be immortal - spearbearer
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Jun 4, 2018 22:57
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A single sweat drop rolls down my head as I pick "Wave Controllers" for $2,000 and get the daily double
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Jun 4, 2018 22:59
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lil baby anime posted:Ehwa fights exclusively with shinsoo and burns everything around her - not a wave controller So they mention at some point a ways back in the story that a true "fisherman" is someone good at everything and not just a close range melee fighter. Or when Khun says "I am not a light bearer because i'm poo poo at fighting. I'm one cause I like bossing people around." Then he beats the crap out of someone. Like you can be good at more than one thing in the tower, just light bearer stuff uh... most people don't like doing InfoSec that much tbh.
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Jun 5, 2018 00:13
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the roles were more distinct at the start before it all became about throwing beams at each other
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Jun 5, 2018 00:20
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lil baby anime posted:I really don't understand the positions at all since they seem like don't even matter honestly. That's because they don't. They're an archaic holdover from when Zahard and co. climbed the Tower originally. They're based more around being able to deal with the Shinheuh and other natural obstacles and issues in the Tower. It's a traditional thing, rather than something that tells you anything useful or important for the sort of climb that folks do now.
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Jun 5, 2018 00:23
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IIRC, the more you climb the Tower and become stronger the less the roles matter. It was stated somewhere way back that all Rankers can fill any role adequately at least because they're all so generally strong that they don't have overly clear specializations.
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Jun 5, 2018 01:38
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Regarding Bam's improved Orb ( ) usage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlLbsTP0C_UAlso, re-reading it: It's really cute/flashbacky?/foretelling? how he makes up his own skill called "Endless Sky"  Edit: And the thorn skill has a name in the same vein. SIU Hirethor fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 03:03
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KittyEmpress posted:I think that it's important to note that Rachel isn't suddenly entirely without talent 'unlike every other irregular'. The comic, and blog posts, have made it very clear that the family heads didn't start out enormously OP, but walked into an untamed tower and were forced to work together and grow to be quite amazingly powerful, just to survive. Besides Zahad, nothing has pushed the idea that the family heads walked in and were badasses who easily conquered floors like the irregulars since then. At the very least we know they were pretty darn powerful compared to the cast as we see them. Eduan is significantly more powerful than everyone but Baam in the core cast, for instance, and I don't think the data has gotten particularly more powerful while in the Data world? Maybe they have? I don't think so though. I'm guessing this fight with Jahad is a preview of the future and a kind of benchmark to show that Baam is, thanks to his absurd about of acquired assets, on par with the family heads and Jahad despite climbing much faster and taking easier tests (iirc the original climbers had to take harder, Administrator tests rather than the ones we usually see the main cast take). Ytlaya posted:Unlike Lee Soo, Rachel climbing the Tower was entirely predicated on taking the deal with Headon. Rachel's options were basically "die or accept the help (or leave the Tower I guess)," so I'm not sure if it really makes sense to consider that "luck"; unlike Lee Soo, she didn't have the option of climbing the Tower normally, since she wasn't a Regular. And Lee Soo also benefited heavily from meeting many other talented people, who he then befriended. Which isn't that unlike what's ended up happening with Rachel, since some of the people with her now are following her voluntarily. The only difference between those situations is that Rachel was given (some of) her companions, but I don't really see how that's somehow her fault (due to the aforementioned "she had no choice" plus the fact that it's common sense to take all the advantages you can get in the Tower). I think you're shifting back into justifying Rachel's horrid actions by her character. All we know and all we've seen is all we can judge her on. She's done heinous and spiteful acts only a monster would do, and she can only get away with it because she's played along with this plan. You can't spin this situation on her like she's a victim. She had the option to leave. At the very least we know her ego to continue on her quest, for whatever reason it is, is enough to make her betray, torture, and kill people. Stuff she wouldn't be able to get away with if she wasn't so darned lucky and had so much fall into her lap because people want to use her as the carrot on the end of a stick. And if/when she outlives her usefulness I'm guessing all this karma and good luck in spite of personal shortcomings is going to come back and bite her. And like I said, whatever she's been given was not a struggle to accept. Or at least we've seen no struggle in her gaining what she has and climbing. She has convinced a couple of people to come around to her side of things, but that accounts for so little of her success and she'd never have been in that position without FUG hand choosing people for her (to what degree, maybe even finding compatible people for her, we don't know). I think only the traveler is someone FUG didn't deliver to her or direct her towards? It's true that a lot of Rachel is a mystery. What isn't is what she's been given and what she's done. She's not really interesting to me until we get that character insight. That's my biggest problem with her. Not that she's an awful person who does awful things, not that she's super lucky (even if that's the core of our argument), but that we've been waiting, what, 7 years since her betrayal and 8 years in total to see what her deal is? She's not the compelling part of the story and hasn't been for ages, at least to me, because there's absolutely nothing to her story besides what we've seen Baam project at her. All we know in all these years is she's connected to Arlene. I need a bit more than that to be invested in her. Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 04:05
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lil baby anime posted:Ehwa fights exclusively with shinsoo and burns everything around her - not a wave controller Technically, the purpose of a Light Bearer is to literally provide light because there wasn't any in most of the Tower originally. Also there are a bunch of niche positions which sort of come down to "wave controller but with a specific effect." Like Ehwa is a "flame user." Which seems poorly thought out because now being suited for making a specific type of Shinsoo is something everyone has to some degree, and it just difficult to learn or something. Which was added specifically to keep Khun and Rak from falling behind Baam. So yeah, it's pretty clear SIU needs to plan ahead more instead of just adding new characters and ideas as they occur to him. Jahad actually pulls out his needle, the weapon of a Fisherman, once things get serious in the recent fight. That's what Lecalicus is... it just ends up resulting in more giant lasers and explosions.
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Jun 5, 2018 04:27
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Notably Ehwa was able to tank the nuke that Yuri used via the "Flame" So its not really poo poo per say.
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Jun 5, 2018 23:55
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Catching up on the final forty chapters or so now. Having a hidden floor within a hidden floor is like the most ToG thing I can think of tbqh. This snakes lad is loving mental though, dunno what's happening here but I like it. e: Also I was really into Hansung being a decent person when he was younger but getting corrupted but drat snakesy went HAM on him as being a secret prick e2: Endorsi is superior to Rachel, Bam 
EmmyOk fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 02:01
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