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They are still preparing the meeting w fat kim? WTF. The Singapore location never made sense. Singapore is not a neutral site.
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Jun 5, 2018 15:22
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tino posted:They are still preparing the meeting w fat kim? WTF. It actually kind of is; Singapore has always had great relations with China and the US, and they've had an unofficial embassy for NK since the 70s, though they closed it recently because of the missile testing.
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Jun 5, 2018 15:28
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yea Singapore is fine. There is no real 'neutral site' within reason and Singapore has historically been open to both China and America diplomatically while treating NK as a 'yea ok you do you and say you won't blow us up and we're cool I guess' thing.
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Jun 5, 2018 15:32
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They could have always had it at the DMZ
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Jun 5, 2018 15:36
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Grapplejack posted:It actually kind of is; Singapore has always had great relations with China and the US, and they've had an unofficial embassy for NK since the 70s, though they closed it recently because of the missile testing. Singapore has US/UK bases and has the worst relationship with China out of all SEA countries.
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Jun 5, 2018 16:00
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I don’t understand why Moon would lock in the the existence of two states and therefore end all hopes for reunification indefinitely. That’s what he would do essentially be doing with declaring an end to the Korean War. The war is over and this is the new normal. NK/SK split for at least this generation because Kim is pretty young at 34. What’s he going to get in return that he would trade that in?
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Jun 5, 2018 17:00
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Vladimir Putin posted:lock in the the existence of two states and therefore end all hopes for reunification indefinitely.
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Jun 5, 2018 17:12
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Vladimir Putin posted:I don’t understand why Moon would lock in the the existence of two states and therefore end all hopes for reunification indefinitely. That’s what he would do essentially be doing with declaring an end to the Korean War. The war is over and this is the new normal. NK/SK split for at least this generation because Kim is pretty young at 34. What’s he going to get in return that he would trade that in? It seems like the reality you're describing exists whether or not they formally end the war, unless you think the South should conquer the North.
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Jun 5, 2018 17:13
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mystes posted:Can you explain why declaring an end to he war would have that effect? I don't really understand. Because it normalizes the relationship between NK and SK. It’s saying Ok war over this is what we recognize as a ‘normal’ state of affairs. NK does it’s thing and SK does it’s think indefinitely.
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Jun 5, 2018 17:14
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Vladimir Putin posted:Because it normalizes the relationship between NK and SK. It’s saying Ok war over this is what we recognize as a ‘normal’ state of affairs. NK does it’s thing and SK does it’s think indefinitely. So do you think the path to peace should be based on saying 'the war will not end until the south conquers the north' because it's not like NK is about to just say 'yep absorb us peacefully' any time soon even under a hypothetical more modernist outlook.
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Jun 5, 2018 19:02
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sexpig by night posted:So do you think the path to peace should be based on saying 'the war will not end until the south conquers the north' because it's not like NK is about to just say 'yep absorb us peacefully' any time soon even under a hypothetical more modernist outlook. So far its "the war will not end until the north changes its behavior" and the degree to which it must change its behavior is the sticking point. Personally I reject the notion that dictatorships should be accommodated by democracies and think it's bizarre that everyone throws out "KJU's right to rule a 21st century personal fiefdom" as something non-negotiable. poo poo, I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't even strictly be about denuclearization at this point, but rather a nuclear freeze plus verifiable political reforms in exchange for sanctions relief. If KJU can't entertain the idea of even giving up a small amount of power then negotiation is a non-starter. Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 00:50
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If the South Korean's don't want to spill the blood and the North Korean's don't want to spill the blood then why should they spill the blood because of your personal preference? Edit: To put things a different way, the two nations see a peace treaty as the best way to prevent a third nation from forcing everyone's hand and starting a war those two nations don't want. These terms might prevent a war but they still need to be agreeable to the North and South Koreans. RandomPauI fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 02:00
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Fojar38 posted:So far its "the war will not end until the north changes its behavior" and the degree to which it must change its behavior is the sticking point.
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Jun 6, 2018 02:08
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Don’t worry everybody. Dennis Rodman is heading to Singapore just in case he’s needed. https://nypost.com/2018/06/05/dennis-rodman-will-be-in-singapore-for-trump-kim-summit/
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Jun 6, 2018 02:22
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If Moon accepts an end to the war under current conditions he’s had a shot at going into the history books in infamy for locking in two states potentially forever and one of which is currently ruled by Kim.
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Jun 6, 2018 02:27
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I think the South Korean's are more worried about the Korean Peninsula as a whole than how a peace treaty will look to right-wing publishers.
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Jun 6, 2018 02:38
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Realistically, I think what would happen if things go on this positive trajectory is similar to what EU countries have or the relationship between Australia and NZ - rather than one country be annexed or absorbed into the other. Rights to live and work in the other country without the need for visas, potentially the one currency. Maybe after all that is completed a union could occur, or the populace of both countries would be happy with the status quo. Hell, they can pull a China and have a 1 country - 2 systems approach.
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Jun 6, 2018 02:47
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MythLisp posted:Realistically, I think what would happen if things go on this positive trajectory is similar to what EU countries have or the relationship between Australia and NZ - rather than one country be annexed or absorbed into the other. I don’t think any of that is going to happen with Kim at the helm of NK.
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Jun 6, 2018 02:51
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RandomPauI posted:I think the South Korean's are more worried about the Korean Peninsula as a whole than how a peace treaty will look to right-wing publishers. No Korean history book is going to look at the permanent fracture of their country with a positive eye
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Jun 6, 2018 02:52
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Vladimir Putin posted:No Korean history book is going to look at the permanent fracture of their country with a positive eye
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Jun 6, 2018 02:57
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they should stay at war to maintain the prospect of peace. i'm very smart
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Jun 6, 2018 03:08
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mystes posted:You are literally the only person on the planet who thinks that anyone is going to look at this as the moment when the country was permanently fractured. Go back to why we are in this situation in the first place and why there are two countries. NK and SK are one country artificially separated by the peculiarities of the Cold War, like east/west Germany. And the Cold War has been over for decades. The only thing really stopping the reunification of NK/SK is the desire for the Kim family to remain in power using brutal methods. There’s many ways to a ‘one Korea’ and all of the outcomes DO NOT involve Kim. The government of a reunited Korea cannot involve Kim, nor his family, nor anything related to the current system of government in NK in any meaningful way. By formalizing the end of the Korean War without a clear pathway to reunification you’re formalizing what is really an artificial separation of one country. Kim gets to remains in power indefinitely (he’s only 34) and so you’ve basically thrown away any hope of resolving the situation for a generation with the risk of it being a permanent situation. That’s not something that is positive in a Korean history book. Vladimir Putin fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 03:10
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Vladimir Putin posted:If Moon accepts an end to the war under current conditions he’s had a shot at going into the history books in infamy for locking in two states potentially forever and one of which is currently ruled by Kim. This is one of the dumbest geo-political takes I've read on all of something awful. There's just something about the naivety/ignorance of it all that has left me flabbergasted.
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Jun 6, 2018 03:12
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R. Guyovich posted:they should stay at war to maintain the prospect of peace. i'm very smart Peace at this point which excludes reunification is taking an immediate solution while the long term prospects of the Korean people remain unresolved. I would hope that no leader in their right mind would take such a deal of convenience. Especially SK since they should be in absolutely no rush to make any sort of deal. It’s NK that’s pressing for a deal; SK is doing fine and could continue indefinitely.
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Jun 6, 2018 03:13
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Vladimir Putin posted:Peace at this point which excludes reunification is taking an immediate solution while the long term prospects of the Korean people remain unresolved. I would hope that no leader in their right mind would take such a deal of convenience. Especially SK since they should be in absolutely no rush to make any sort of deal. It’s NK that’s pressing for a deal; SK is doing fine and could continue indefinitely. HOW would they reunify without mass death and conquest? Do you think Kim has just been shuffling around watching the 'reunification meter' slowly tick higher and higher or something? The North will never unify under the Kim family and frankly the ROK isn't wild about the idea of suddenly getting a huge influx of citizens fresh from the whatever the Korean word for gulag is.
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Jun 6, 2018 03:23
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Vladimir Putin posted:If Moon accepts an end to the war under current conditions he’s had a shot at going into the history books in infamy for locking in two states potentially forever and one of which is currently ruled by Kim. That's the best scenario for China. A separated Korea also benefit the US but not as much as China.
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Jun 6, 2018 03:33
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tino posted:That's the best scenario for China. Yes it is, I agree
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Jun 6, 2018 03:34
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Do you think the government and ruling elites of East Germany wanted to reunify with West Germany and give up power? The answer, might surprise you.
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Jun 6, 2018 03:53
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Do you think the government and ruling elites of East Germany wanted to reunify with West Germany and give up power? The answer, might surprise you. Hell, not even the French or the British wanted a reunified Germany. They were prepared to keep the DDR on life support through whatever means but Reagan went and bulldozed through their careful plans.
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Jun 6, 2018 04:18
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Peven Stan posted:Hell, not even the French or the British wanted a reunified Germany. They were prepared to keep the DDR on life support through whatever means but Reagan went and bulldozed through their careful plans. Bush, not Reagan. But yeah, Thatcher even asked Gorbachev to stop it. Edit: God these people are loving idiots who can't stop themselves from trying to sabotage the summit: https://twitter.com/dandrezner/status/1004373371503685634 Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 04:30
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Sinteres posted:Bush, not Reagan. But yeah, Thatcher even asked Gorbachev to stop it. The summit isn't gonna be canceled over Rudy Thank god he isn't part of the negotiations.
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Jun 6, 2018 18:53
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That's the same face my dog makes when he steals cat poo poo from the liter box and is trying to act innocent.
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Jun 7, 2018 06:06
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Vladimir Putin posted:Go back to why we are in this situation in the first place and why there are two countries. NK and SK are one country artificially separated by the peculiarities of the Cold War, like east/west Germany. And the Cold War has been over for decades. The only thing really stopping the reunification of NK/SK is the desire for the Kim family to remain in power using brutal methods. There’s many ways to a ‘one Korea’ and all of the outcomes DO NOT involve Kim. The government of a reunited Korea cannot involve Kim, nor his family, nor anything related to the current system of government in NK in any meaningful way. You know you're advocating for war on the Korean peninsula right?
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Jun 7, 2018 07:36
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Xi Dada agrees with you splitter countries should be unified by force, please let him finish the 3rd carrier.
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Jun 7, 2018 11:16
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Charliegrs posted:You know you're advocating for war on the Korean peninsula right? This has been the driving imperative behind joint SK/US strategy since the end of the Cold War. There hasn’t been any sort of shooting war between the two countries during that time. SK/US doesn’t attack NK because it’s not worth it and NK doesn’t attack SK because they don’t want to die a horrible death. At the same time there’s no move by SK/US towards any sort of solution that permanatly closes of any prospect of reunification or formalizes the permanent existence of two koreas. NK strategic moves mostly consist of nuclear blackmail which if they get a peace deal locking in their existence in power will basically mean that their strategy has succeeded.
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Jun 7, 2018 14:31
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Remind me, what is the alternative?
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Jun 7, 2018 14:53
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Bomb both koreas until they make peace
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Jun 7, 2018 14:59
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mystes posted:Remind me, what is the alternative? I guess, try to keep the status quo at all costs despite the fact both sides seem to actually want peace...just to deny Kim a victory.
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Jun 7, 2018 15:03
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If we allow them to declare piece we’ll have to deal with the nightmare of having 2 Koreas. An unthinkable situation.
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Jun 7, 2018 15:04
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