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Sab669 posted:the company is at a point where they won't back down after we've gone this far into integrating it. It's this. Someone higher up has put a bunch of political points into JIRA and cannot back out now. We're a few weeks away from rolling out JIRA to our whole company. I believe it includes mandatory 100% time tracking, so you have to account for every minute of your day.
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Jun 5, 2018 21:32
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Protocol7 posted:But we still have fixed release dates and predefined scope for those releases
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Jun 5, 2018 21:39
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What does your heart tell you?
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Jun 5, 2018 23:10
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JIRA can be good as long as somebody who understands development is in charge of setting it up before anyone else starts using it. The chances of this happening are left to the user.
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Jun 6, 2018 01:11
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Lumpy posted:JIRA can be good as long as somebody who understands development is in charge of setting it up before anyone else starts using it. Oh yeah, this. JIRA can be amazing. I wish there was better JIRA <--> VSTS integration. I'd be head over heels.
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Jun 6, 2018 01:50
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Pixelboy posted:Oh yeah, this. JIRA can be amazing. Having been involved in several JIRA -> VSTS migrations, I agree. The tools out there (even the paid ones) suck and it's horrifically complex to write your own migration tool.
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Jun 6, 2018 02:01
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Jira was good until about 5 or 6 years ago when they decided to be EVERY SINGLE THING. Our "workflow" at one point was an MC Escher masterpiece. Then we scaled everything back and made it pretty simple. More of the issues now are user management when it comes to access to projects, but simplifying things reduced headaches and problems. But we found the less we try to do with Jira, the better experience we have with it. We're migrating Bitbucket to Gitlab this summer and seriously considering dropping Jira for it, but it's a tough sell at the moment because our backlog after 2.5 years of agile is actually really solid.
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Jun 6, 2018 02:08
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geeves posted:We're migrating Bitbucket to Gitlab this summer and seriously considering dropping Jira for it, but it's a tough sell at the moment because our backlog after 2.5 years of agile is actually really solid. Why GitLab over GitHub?
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Jun 6, 2018 02:27
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Pixelboy posted:Why GitLab over GitHub? I always think about it because “Auto devops” looks nice.
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Jun 6, 2018 02:35
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I haven't used Github professionally, but after 7 month of GitLab, it's a big ol' ehhhhhhhhh (GitLab is the eh to be clear)
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Jun 6, 2018 02:45
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Pixelboy posted:Why GitLab over GitHub? Gitlab fit more into how we already operate and how we want our CI to work. We have Bitbucket and Jenkins at the moment, but while looking into upgrading Jenkins and Bitbucket, we realized that Gitlab was really suited to how we want to work as well as how we already worked. Which basically means it keeps the things we like and helps us with the things we want to improve upon all within one solution. (I'm wary of one solution options, but Gitlab at the moment is the exception) So yes, we have to learn how the gitlab-ci.yaml works, etc. but the fact that I was able to set it up in under a day for one of our smaller products was promising. I got out main app pipeline running not long after that. Gitlab also refreshed their UI (one of the early complaints I had). Their documentation is excellent as hell. Seriously reading their documentation can be as addictive as reading wikipedia. Gitlab was a slightly better pricing model for our organization as well. It wasn't 9-1 decision but it was more 6-3 in the end with gitlab winning. geeves fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 02:56
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Github enterprise is also as expensive, broken randomly depending on when they branched the build and a black box you can’t manage. also most third party tools that work with github either don’t support it, or charge stupendous amounts of money to support github enterprise. Gitlab is cheaper and does more.
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Jun 6, 2018 03:02
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GitLab kicks rear end, it's just hard to build a good UI to represent such a rich set of features
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Jun 6, 2018 03:23
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geeves posted:Jira was good until about 5 or 6 years ago when they decided to be EVERY SINGLE THING. This has been really loving me off since it's taken 5 or 6 years for us to actually get Jira in place, and now a bunch of the stuff I looked at when trialling it years ago is trash. I keep looking up features and finding tickets explaining how they've been removed from the cloud version. Why am i resorting to tampermonkey to get things like timestamps on updates? It didn't help that we had people setting up workflows without trying them out leading to things like START WORK and IN PROGRESS being two different buttons leading into different flow routes and no ability to go back if you clicked the wrong thing Confluence is particularly awful now - you can't even edit using wikitext at this point and it's trying to look like a social media post instead of anything useful.
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Jun 6, 2018 04:36
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My boss wants to get rid of all unit tests because he gets annoyed at us having to debug that and not "actual" code. He's pushing super hard for us to move to functional testing only. edit: Or is that normal and I'm being unfair? Shirec fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 15:29
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Shirec posted:My boss wants to get rid of all unit tests because he gets annoyed at us having to debug that and not "actual" code. He's pushing super hard for us to move to functional testing only. It's bad and you should 
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Jun 6, 2018 15:36
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Shirec posted:My boss wants to get rid of all unit tests because he gets annoyed at us having to debug that and not "actual" code. He's pushing super hard for us to move to functional testing only. It is a terrible idea
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Jun 6, 2018 15:39
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Jun 6, 2018 15:39
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Shirec posted:My boss wants to get rid of all unit tests because he gets annoyed at us having to debug that and not "actual" code. He's pushing super hard for us to move to functional testing only. It's normal in that there are plenty of lazy people who can't be bothered to test their code. Have fun tracking down where the bug is when the "test the thing does the thing" test fails and the surface area you have to check is the entire feature. Our legacy codebase is exclusively functional tests and it's a nightmare, both because the functional areas are rather large and because the whole codebase was written in a way to be antagonistic to unit testing and refactoring. It's not fun.
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Jun 6, 2018 15:39
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Shirec posted:My boss wants to get rid of all unit tests because he gets annoyed at us having to debug that and not "actual" code. He's pushing super hard for us to move to functional testing only. holy poo poo lol
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Jun 6, 2018 15:53
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People that want to get rid of the unit tests want to get rid of the units too and write one huge procedure instead.
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Jun 6, 2018 15:53
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Just use customers as your QA, problem solved.
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Jun 6, 2018 15:59
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Shirec posted:My boss wants to get rid of all unit tests because he gets annoyed at us having to debug that and not "actual" code. He's pushing super hard for us to move to functional testing only.
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Jun 6, 2018 16:09
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Clanpot Shake posted:Have fun tracking down where the bug is when the "test the thing does the thing" test fails and the surface area you have to check is the entire feature. Unit tests catch some of these, but not all. The important thing is to add a unit test in these scenarios so the code constantly has more unanticipated edge cases covered.
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Jun 6, 2018 16:20
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Shirec posted:My boss wants to get rid of all unit tests because he gets annoyed at us having to debug that and not "actual" code. He's pushing super hard for us to move to functional testing only. Functional testing only is awful and does not work. It wasn't effective when software was shipped in boxes every 18 months, and it's only gotten less effective over time as software release cadences have accelerated. Removing the unit tests is fine if you can say with certainty: 1. The tests are unreliable 2. The tests are invalid (not testing the correct things) 3. The tests are not salvageable as written In that case, dumping them entirely is fine -- as long as the next step is to start rewriting them and addressing points #1 and #2. That said, his reaction is totally normal. Among people who are bad at software development. New Yorp New Yorp fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 16:40
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Hooo boy. Well I don't have any say either way so I'm sure I'll have trash fire things to talk about either way. Maybe someone will take pity and hire me with the job applications I'm papering Chicago with. I think the big breakdown was, like y'all said earlier about doing tests and then fulfilling them, there was a major slowdown in creating them and having someone else do them (me and offshore). I also think another part of it was that for the assertions we were testing against, he wanted things verified down to an insane level (every property on every test, every conceivable type of negative testing), like maybe 30-40 assertions on some tests. When that started having problems, he threw fits about time wasted and had us strip everything but happy path out. Then we ran into problems where our database isn't saving milliseconds so he can't verify the exact time something was created and updated. Led to a day of debugging unit tests and now wanting to get rid of testing in general. I've noticed he has a tendency to choose a big new path for us to follow, and we do it for a week or so, run into a bump, and he gets mad. Then we get a new big better thing to do. Which leads to fragmentation. Which he then discovers way later and blames us for not spending more of our free time fixing. Again, I might be being unfair edit: Thought of an example of changing his mind all the time. We've had 4 very different ways of returning error codes this year. Each of them would come into logging differently and requires a not insubstantial amount of refactoring. Shirec fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 17:02
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Shirec posted:Again, I might be being unfair you are not testing is one of those things where a lot of people have different ideas of how to do it correctly, and there are a lot of different ways to do it correctly that can fit certain workstreams your boss, however, has no idea how to do it correctly, and no idea how to fit anything to your workstream I think the thing that sticks with me most about testing is the major idea I learned in my testing class in university, which was that every decision you make while testing should be prefaced with "is this worth the time I am spending writing the test". At my previous job, some people were dogmatic about "any code change should have an associated new test or test change" and I spent a fair amount of time arguing that adding an assertion on a field mapping that someone had fatfingered to cause the defect was not worth the time spent to write the assertion (although usually I just added it if someone commented about the absence on a PR because arguing about it took more time than just adding it)
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Jun 6, 2018 17:16
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Shirec, every time I see your name in the Killed By column, I hope it's you telling us all you've finally  and won't have to deal with that guy anymore.e: hell, any time there are a batch of new posts I hope you got out and people are congratulating you Munkeymon fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 17:30
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Shirec posted:Again, I might be being unfair lol, no you aren't
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Jun 6, 2018 17:58
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Munkeymon posted:Shirec, every time I see your name in the Killed By column, I hope it's you telling us all you've finally  I'm emotionally invested in Shirec gtfo of there and her boss getting what's coming to him
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Jun 6, 2018 18:05
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Munkeymon posted:Shirec, every time I see your name in the Killed By column, I hope it's you telling us all you've finally TBH that's what I'm hoping I can post in here every time! I feel super bad that my one interview that I thought was going to result in an offer never materialized, I know a lot of folks posted support and encouragement, and I never was able to provide satisfaction. Debating sending another follow up email tomorrow but I'm assuming I was ghosted (was supposed to get something on the 28th). Jose Valasquez posted:
 It's really motivating to know I've got a bunch of folks rooting for me to succeed
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Jun 6, 2018 18:25
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To follow up on test chat, the "tests" he was asking for sound incredibly brittle and would have provided a net negative to development time, especially once you consider the costs you've added to any refactoring you do. I understand that when you're going with a cheap overseas outsourcing plan you have to create VERY aggressive testing at every level to ensure that they actually and correctly do the thing you ask (likely negating any savings you may have gotten in using them) but it sounds like he just outright doesn't understand testing, just like he doesn't understand anything else. Shirec, please do go to local developer meetup and networking events. It's not what you know, it's who you know.
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Jun 6, 2018 19:28
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Volmarias posted:To follow up on test chat, the "tests" he was asking for sound incredibly brittle and would have provided a net negative to development time, especially once you consider the costs you've added to any refactoring you do. Ah! That makes total sense. As to meetups, ugh I totally need to be. I’ve been battling depression/anxiety since dealing with all this but I can gumption up to get out of this hole. I’m a little worried I’ll be too obviously wanting a new job though. What are y’alls tips for meetups and networking, with the end goal of getting a new job? I’m good with people so at least I have that (except for horrible monsters, I’m bad with them)
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Jun 6, 2018 20:43
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Shirec posted:What are y’alls tips for meetups and networking, with the end goal of getting a new job? I’m good with people so at least I have that (except for horrible monsters, I’m bad with them) You're overthinking. You talk to people there like you'd talk to other people and form relationships, and sometimes those relationships lead to job opportunities.
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Jun 6, 2018 20:46
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Shirec posted:(except for horrible monsters, I’m bad with them)
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Jun 6, 2018 20:49
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Vulture Culture posted:I have bad news for you about every industry
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Jun 6, 2018 21:51
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It can't be worse than my current boss, who just shouted "Sieg Heil" as an apparently hilarious joke. edit: Insert Illinois Nazi joke here
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Jun 6, 2018 21:57
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Shirec posted:It can't be worse than my current boss, who just shouted "Sieg Heil" as an apparently hilarious joke. Jesus Christ. Just when I think things can't get any worse, it's almost like he's trying to take being an awful human to its absurd maximum.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:03
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Shirec posted:It can't be worse than my current boss, who just shouted "Sieg Heil" as an apparently hilarious joke. Surprised it took this long to trip Godwin’s Law.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:14
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Shirec posted:edit: Insert Illinois Nazi joke here Adolf Hitler, Hermann Göring, and Harry Caray walk into a bar…
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