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Squashing Machine posted:We all know you can never really understand someone who is different from you, you can only pretend to. I have no idea how you can read anything I have said and believe this is my position. Like, what is your foundation for your critical perspective? Name your five most influential critical theorists. What school do you subscribe to? Hell, just tell me if you consider yourself a continentalist or an analyist
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Jun 6, 2018 23:31
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Human doesn't actually mean anything inherently, which is the point. All labels are ultimately arbitrary, and because of that wholly subject to deconstruction. There is nothing inherent in any category, because it is built on the weak foundation of language.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:32
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I have no idea how you can read anything I have said and believe this is my position. Like, what is your foundation for your critical perspective? I didn't go to school, I went to books.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:33
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i don't have much to add to this discussion but as a middle-class white man filled with ennui i find reading about middle-class white men filled with ennui inherently boring and would rather read about other stuff thats beyond my everyday experience
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Jun 6, 2018 23:34
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Actually, Homo sapiens sapiens is a category with pretty inherent qualities. You do realize the flexibility of taxonomic categorization is actually a major part of biology right? There are entire schools of thought dedicated to the boundaries of what is considered acceptable variation within a species.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:You do realize the flexibility of taxonomic categorization is actually a major part of biology right?
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Jun 6, 2018 23:35
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WASDF posted:I just bask in the empathy, and feel something kind of cosmic about things like DEATH and LOVE. You're saying it's been done before? Well that's a waste of the forty thousand words I wrote about death.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:36
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Are you literally appealing to "human biodiversity"? No I am saying that pointing to "Homo Sapiens Sapiens" as an objective categorization is false because all categorization is inherently arbitrary to some extent, and even the biologists who do the categorization acknowledge this. I am not saying there are non human humans, but I am also saying that the criteria we use to define what is a human being at a biological level is not unambiguous, because all taxonomy deals with issues of ambiguity.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:39
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noted defender of the hegemonic perspective, chinua achebe:quote:Once you allow yourself to identify with the people in a story, then you might begin to see yourself in that story even if on the surface it's far removed from your situation. This is what I try to tell my students: this is one great thing that literature can do —it can make us identify with situations and people far away. If it does that, it's a miracle. I tell my students, it's not difficult to identify with somebody like yourself, somebody next door who looks like you. What's more difficult is to identify with someone you don't see, who's very far away, who's a different color, who eats a different kind of food. When you begin to do that then literature is really performing its wonders.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:40
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Clipperton posted:noted defender of the hegemonic perspective, chinua achebe: Mel Mudkiper posted:I think the point of art to expand our limited scope of subjective human experience. If you can empathize and connect with elements of an experience or struggle, that is a good thing. However, I do not think that connection speaks to anything "universal" as much as it is a bridging of subject positioning and experience. Nothing he is saying is speaking to universality as much as finding connections between yourself and others, which I already explicitly said is my view of the purpose of art. I don't see how claiming we should identify with others means that human experience shares a universal core.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:43
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Clipperton posted:noted defender of the hegemonic perspective, chinua achebe: you are killing it with these quotes. I support it whole-sale. Okonkwo is something of an icon for the importance of empathy to me. Things Fall Apart is amazing. Yams.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:44
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Mel Mudkiper posted:No I am saying that pointing to "Homo Sapiens Sapiens" as an objective categorization is false because all categorization is inherently arbitrary to some extent, and even the biologists who do the categorization acknowledge this. I am not saying there are non human humans, but I am also saying that the criteria we use to define what is a human being at a biological level is not unambiguous, because all taxonomy deals with issues of ambiguity.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:45
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Nothing he is saying is speaking to universality as much as finding connections between yourself and others, which I already explicitly said is my view of the purpose of art. I don't see how claiming we should identify with others means that human experience shares a universal core. I think you're getting bullied right now cause you recognized what people meant when they said "universal" and yet you misconstrued it as their assertion of the hegemonic human experience.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:45
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People don't deserve to read books if they think the reason literature has value is to show that actually we're all the same if you think about it man
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Jun 6, 2018 23:46
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Sham bam bamina! posted:You're reading me backwards. I'm not saying that because the taxonomical category exists it dictates the qualities of its examples; I'm saying that unavoidable commonalities necessitate a larger category. Even your own arguments support this; when you talk about "an endlessly complex series of interlocking subjective experiences", that you conceive of "subjective experiences" as an idea that can stand for literally every mind on the planet means that you are simply writing Homo sapiens sapiens with different letters. Well sure, but my issue with the argument of universal human themes is that if A shares something with B and B shares something with C, and A shares something with C, it doesn't necessarily means that they all share the same thing. My point is that we can all find common elements to create empathy between each other, but it doesn't mean those elements are universal to all people.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:49
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Mel Mudkiper posted:My point is that we can all find common elements to create empathy between each other, but it doesn't mean those elements are universal to all people.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:49
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J_RBG posted:People don't deserve to read books if they think the reason literature has value is to show that actually we're all the same if you think about it man 
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Jun 6, 2018 23:52
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Let's keep in mind, though, that you're the one who actually brought up the idea of universality in the first place. Here's the post that started all this:Squashing Machine posted:They can, but it's a pretty lovely place to start your criticism from. And, obviously, these books were widely purchased and read by large swathes of the population, poor included. Maybe it's wish-fulfillment, maybe it's the same impulse that makes people wave at the President's limo, or maybe it's because these characters are depicted navigating problems of life and existence that are relevant even outside their individual caste.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:52
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Let's keep in mind, though, that you're the one who actually brought up the idea of universality in the first place. Here's the post that started all this: Because, from experience, the way he phrased it felt like a traditional universal truth preamble and it turns out I was right
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Jun 6, 2018 23:56
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Because, from experience, the way he phrased it felt like a traditional universal truth preamble and it turns out I was right Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Jun 7, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 23:59
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Sham bam bamina! posted:like a book's virtue couldn't be that its themes resonate with most people. It's ridiculous. It could but I would find it difficult to prove that much less argue it in terms of literary merit.
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Jun 7, 2018 00:02
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Mel Mudkiper posted:It could but I would find it difficult to prove that much less argue it in terms of literary merit.
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Jun 7, 2018 00:05
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Mel Mudkiper posted:It could but I would find it difficult to prove that much less argue it in terms of literary merit. it's girth and shape of thematic resonation that's what counts anyway apparently
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Jun 7, 2018 00:06
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There, I fixed the goddamn post for you.
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Jun 7, 2018 00:08
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You seem pretty mad, it's a literary debate man. Chill, we are just book nerding here.
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Jun 7, 2018 00:10
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GAS
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Jun 7, 2018 00:15
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CestMoi posted:GAS Don't make me bring up video games
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Jun 7, 2018 00:16
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CestMoi posted:GAS
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Jun 7, 2018 00:21
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I propose a new subject: dumb as heck marginalia in used books. In my used copy of Pedro Paramo there are these """observations""" made by what seems to be an alien-being. ...and I would have promised her [the dying mother] anything.: "characterizes protagonist as a man wh loves his mother and would do right by her. he spent time with her on her last days." another, "the motif of God is used to develop the theme of religion..." I can only guess that this person may not be a native English speaker, but I'm intrigued by what an English speaking person may have thought observations like these would reveal. AND, what's a classic move with excessive highlighters of books, there are absolutely zero notes beyond the half-way mark.
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Jun 7, 2018 00:25
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WASDF posted:I propose a new subject: dumb as heck marginalia in used books. So can I have my book back, then?
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Jun 7, 2018 00:30
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Franchescanado posted:So can I have my book back, then? you had the decency to write most of them in pencil, and I've already gone through each page (before reading) and erased everyone I could.
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Jun 7, 2018 00:33
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Everyone? 
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Jun 7, 2018 00:36
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Those seem like fairly typical literature 101 notes from a first-year student who is to write a 500-word essay on basic literary theory buzzwords and started reading too late or is attempting to internalise 'close' reading by making basic notes while doing so and realised halfway through that it wasn't necessary. In-/direct characterization, motifs; it's standard first-semester language/literature studies stuff. Why would those examples be indicative of a non-native speaker?
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Jun 7, 2018 01:00
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Everyone? not a soul left living in that book Lex Neville posted:Those seem like fairly typical literature 101 notes from a first-year student who is to write a 500-word essay on basic literary theory buzzwords and started reading too late or is attempting to internalise 'close' reading by making basic notes while doing so and realised halfway through that it wasn't necessary. In-/direct characterization, motifs; it's standard first-semester language/literature studies stuff. quote:Why would those examples be indicative of a non-native speaker?
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Jun 7, 2018 01:12
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Tree Goat posted:the real white noise is all of these loving posts Thank you.
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Jun 7, 2018 02:15
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Good god almighty the last few pages have caused me to contract HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.
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Jun 7, 2018 02:23
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But at least the argument gave us this post:Mel Mudkiper posted:I have no idea how you can read anything I have said and believe this is my position. Like, what is your foundation for your critical perspective?
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Jun 7, 2018 02:44
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No regrets bitch
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Jun 7, 2018 02:55
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WASDF posted:I propose a new subject: dumb as heck marginalia in used books. Whoever last had my copy of Nella Larsen's Passing was strangely determined to prove Irene Refield was secretly a lesbian. They highlighted every instance where she described other female character's beauty or desirability and every cold-fish description of Irene's husband, to finally conclude: 
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Jun 7, 2018 04:52
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Mel Mudkiper posted:No regrets bitch Let's begin the unhealable TBB critical schism, you and me bud
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Jun 7, 2018 05:01
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