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Ras Het posted:I don't think that's what you believe, but cultures do grow from history so there's plenty of problems in thinking that We should all share these wonders of the past, no matter where we're from, no matter whether we flew here or whether our forefathers have lived here for millenia Oh, my apologies. I took what you said as some kind of attack or something. On the subject, I think I understand what you mean and I don't entirely disagree, but I'd like to point out that culture changes over time, people get conquered and reconquered and sometimes there's barely any descendants of the original people in the first place. Borders changes, countries come and go.... As I stated before, I don't think its okay to go into another country and just take what you want in the name of historical preservation, but i don't think that emptying museums and giving everything back solves anything.
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Jun 7, 2018 16:05
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Honestly as long as we can prevent the British from stealing such cultural touchstones as Randy's Donuts and KFC's secret blend then all that other stuff is kind of a wash,
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Jun 7, 2018 16:12
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You'd have to start with emptying out the oldest holdings of the Uppsala and Stockholm libraries first, it's all deliberately taken war loot
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Jun 7, 2018 16:30
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Ras Het posted:I faintly recall Britain joining a war that certainly didn't help with the preservation of Iraq's historical monuments. No wait, several wars Meanwhile the people who are actually losing their lives to protect manuscripts from ISIS are trying to either photograph them or smuggle them out of their countries as fast as possible https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/02/the-monk-who-saves-manuscripts-from-isis/517611/
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Jun 7, 2018 16:34
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HEY GUNS posted:This smacks of hostage-taking. "Behave like we want or these priceless things get it." What quote:Meanwhile the people who are actually losing their lives to protect manuscripts from ISIS are trying to either photograph them or smuggle them out of their countries as fast as possible I don't think anyone believes we should be shipping those Assyrian lions off to Raqqa right now. Unless they have a reason to want those objects destroyed. Which does have its attraction of course
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Jun 7, 2018 16:40
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Kuiperdolin posted:Every Western country was founded by Trojan refugees so looting Greece is just payback. You misspelled "Korean" there.
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Jun 7, 2018 16:48
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ship the elgin marbles to bolivia so that they can be preserved by the atlanteans
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Jun 7, 2018 16:56
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HEY GUNS posted:This smacks of hostage-taking. "Behave like we want or these priceless things get it." quote:“Although most of the manuscripts are connected with the Islamic religion, they also make you also understand the culture of the society at the time they were written,” Salameh said. “These works do not belong only to Arabs, Muslims or Palestinians. They are a heritage for everyone in the world.” Pretty much the point I was trying to make earlier
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Jun 7, 2018 17:05
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Honestly as long as we can prevent the British from stealing such cultural touchstones as Randy's Donuts and KFC's secret blend then all that other stuff is kind of a wash, We have KFC in the UK. No idea about that other one. (I do miss Wendy's now and then)
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Jun 7, 2018 17:10
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Isn't the core of modern nationalism taking a bunch of things from the same geographic vicinity and putting them all together as the one culture, linking them with various national myths? The temporal distance doesn't make a difference, or even helps so they can pull a 5,000 year old China routine. And so beyond whatever historical value the artifacts have, as well as tourism and artistic value, there's the modern day value as a part of forging the new national identity, just as to the British it's all part of their whole thing about their museum being the best in the world and their academic tradition, so it's part of their current national identity as well. CoolCab posted:it belongs to the people who loving own it and while we can weep at the loss of historical context if it’s destroyed or left to degrade it is their poo poo. See the most fun part of this post is I have literally no idea what side of the argument it's on. Grand Prize Winner posted:Honestly as long as we can prevent the British from stealing such cultural touchstones as Randy's Donuts and KFC's secret blend then all that other stuff is kind of a wash, Japanese KFC is cooler anyways.
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Jun 7, 2018 17:50
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SlothfulCobra posted:
 do you think i think it would be...good if someone took the cenotaph
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Jun 7, 2018 17:54
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Dalael posted:But who owns it is up to debate. Take the Elgin Marble for example.. Do they belong to Greece? Yes. quote:Or do they belong to the now defunct Roman Empire who owned Greece for hundreds of years? Or maybe it belongs to the Ottomans who were the ones in charge of Greece when the marbles were taken? Again this is ignoring the continuity with a still existing living descended culture, which wasn't Roman (well not that incarnation of it anyway) or Ottoman. Nor do the closest modern equivalents to inheritors of both those legacies even make claim to them, so this is some pretty faux muddying of the waters. The marbles were part of an exact structure, which sits in Greece. It's pretty clear cut. Also Greece is not about to collapse into militia ridden anarchy any time soon. quote:The people who built it are long dead, and so is their culture. Greek culture as we know it is not the same Greek culture of antiquity obviously, but it is a descendent. I know classicists can be really blind to anything Greek related post-Alexander but yikes dude. quote:History is important and there are far too many countries who do not give a poo poo and/or simply do not have the resources to protect it. And yet you're choosing the Elgin Marbles as an example of this?
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Jun 7, 2018 18:09
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Dalael posted:That's a pretty stupid way to twist what I said. True, the legacy of Ancient Greece is shared by Turkey and much of the Balkans. As well as Cyprus, Italy, and many other places in some smaller ways. While Greece has the lion's share and the main cultural connection, there is a broader world than them and it's healthy to realize that and not shape this around modern Greek nationalism. England is not one of these places.  Dalael posted:On the subject, I think I understand what you mean and I don't entirely disagree, but I'd like to point out that culture changes over time, people get conquered and reconquered and sometimes there's barely any descendants of the original people in the first place. Borders changes, countries come and go.... Ignoring that most of these artifacts "traveled" during the past 200 years during the age of European imperialism, and weren't being shunted around all willy nilly throughout history. Also the "barely any descendants" meaning what here lol. Culturally? Or genetically. Grape fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jun 7, 2018 |
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Jun 7, 2018 18:17
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Greece, the most stable country in the European Union. A country with a strong and stable economy and which never sees citizens throwing molotov cocktails at anything. gently caress it, send them all artifacts from every nation, they're clearly the best at safe keeping their poo poo.
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Jun 7, 2018 18:19
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If Greece wants the Elgin marbles back, they should do as any civilized country would do. Invade Britain and take them back by force.
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Jun 7, 2018 18:19
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Grape posted:True, the legacy of Ancient Greece is shared by Turkey and much of the Balkans. As well as Cyprus, Italy, and many other places in some smaller ways. While Greece has the lion's share and the main cultural connection, there is a broader world than them and it's healthy to realize that and not shape this around modern Greek nationalism. I'm not saying that the British share a culture. I'm saying if the Greeks really wanted to keep them marbles safe, they should have given up the phalanx earlier. Vae Victis and all that 
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Jun 7, 2018 18:22
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lol the possession of the Elgin marbles was " actual, open and notorious, exclusive, adverse, and continuous" for long enough that adverse possession has kicked in.
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Jun 7, 2018 18:22
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Deteriorata posted:If Greece wants the Elgin marbles back, they should do as any civilized country would do. Isn't invading Britain what any civilized country should do?
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Jun 7, 2018 18:23
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Yup, the English sure have no hellenic influence whatsoever and don't trace any of their cultural touchstones back to that area as some kind of "birthplace of western civilization" no sirree. But I guess it's all about where you draw the lines. CoolCab posted:
I didn't notice that bit, I was thinking more about how the crown jewels also have the same deal where some people are clamoring to return them to their native lands.
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Jun 7, 2018 18:31
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SlothfulCobra posted:Yup, the English sure have no hellenic influence whatsoever and don't trace any of their cultural touchstones back to that area as some kind of "birthplace of western civilization" no sirree. Where’s the crying Churchill when you need it? I once had this conversation with a socialist Greek bartender and he, uh, had strong opinions about it.
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Jun 7, 2018 18:50
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Grape posted:True, the legacy of Ancient Greece is shared by Turkey and much of the Balkans. As well as Cyprus, Italy, and many other places in some smaller ways. While Greece has the lion's share and the main cultural connection, there is a broader world than them and it's healthy to realize that and not shape this around modern Greek nationalism. Eh, the whole thing basically smacks of ahistoricity, with a touch of racism. If the Ottoman Empire isn't considered a legitimate government or part of Greek culture after governing for 400 years, then nothing around today has a particularly legitimate claim on the product of an Athenian artist either. Your perspective seems to basically be "strip away any complexity or the validity of other stakeholders, and don't worry about establishing any sort of precedent about intercultural repossession". And that's just overly simplistic.
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Jun 7, 2018 19:14
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Dalael posted:Isn't invading Britain what any civilized country should do? Pretty much every culture at some point in history invaded Britain.
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Jun 7, 2018 19:43
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I'm glad we all agree that the Roman Empire never ended as long as it's in our hearts.
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Jun 7, 2018 19:46
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Alhazred posted:Pretty much every culture at some point in history invaded Britain. This might actually be true if you count british imperial holdings as part of britain
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Jun 7, 2018 19:47
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Kaal posted:Eh, the whole thing basically smacks of ahistoricity, with a touch of racism. If the Ottoman Empire isn't considered a legitimate government or part of Greek culture after governing for 400 years, then nothing around today has a particularly legitimate claim on the product of an Athenian artist either. Your perspective seems to basically be "strip away any complexity or the validity of other stakeholders, and don't worry about establishing any sort of precedent about intercultural repossession". And that's just overly simplistic. Spain: a legitimate part of Aztec and Incan culture.
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Jun 7, 2018 20:42
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Deteriorata posted:If Greece wants the Elgin marbles back, they should do as any civilized country would do. I already made the ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ joke but nobody noticed >_< I don't think this issue has a good answer but hopefully in the near future everyone all over the world will be able to visit a molecule-level reproduction of the Elgin Marbles in VR anyway, rendering the "where is the physical original" question somewhat moot in a practical sense. Not that the practical sense is the only one that matters.
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Jun 7, 2018 20:48
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Senor Dog posted:Spain: a legitimate part of Aztec and Incan culture. I’ll never forgive the bastards for banning the traditional pozole recipe of my people.
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Jun 7, 2018 20:48
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:I'm glad we all agree that the Roman Empire never ended as long as it's in our hearts. The real Roman Empire was the friends we made along the way.
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Jun 7, 2018 21:06
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I honestly believe that the best case for sending them back to Greece is that there's considerable interest in showing all the artifacts in a museum space in to which they can all be re-united and displayed in a unity, which is what Greece has set out to do.
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Jun 7, 2018 21:07
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Dalael posted:Greece, the most stable country in the European Union. A country with a strong and stable economy and which never sees citizens throwing molotov cocktails at anything. I called you a racist like two hours ago and you couldn't hold back on this post
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Jun 7, 2018 21:22
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Move the Colosseum to New Jersey.
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Jun 7, 2018 21:23
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Ras Het posted:I called you a racist like two hours ago and you couldn't hold back on this post Maybe you need to re-evaluate your definition of racism, you ever think of that? There's nothing racist in saying that Greece is currently unstable economically and politically and probably not the best country to safeguard artifacts when they're literally selling their airports for quick cash infusion. Also, I put very little faith in people's claim of racism on the internet because of exactly the type of poo poo you're trying to pull right here. You can gently caress right off with your imagined slights. *edit: Don't try using RACISM as your  button
Dalael fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jun 7, 2018 |
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Jun 7, 2018 21:30
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Also, learn the difference between "RACE" and "NATION"
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Jun 7, 2018 21:32
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Senor Dog posted:Spain: a legitimate part of Aztec and Incan culture. The Aztecs and Incans are actually really good examples here. Aztec society lasted lasted less than 250 years, and Incan lasted less than 100, but that doesn't make their cultures any less authentic. And similarly, the experience of Spanish colonization caused a lot of changes to those cultures, and created a variety of mixed cultural identities, but those cultures were no less real. The heritage of Spanish language, history, and custom certainly became as much a part of Peruvian and Mexican culture as their respective Incan and Aztec heritages - they are not some incidental and separate thing. And that cultural transmission was not one-way either. The process of colonizing South America had a wide range of effects on Spanish culture. There is certainly a tendency around the world for countries to dismiss their colonial past, and the effect that other cultures had on their own. China ignores its Mongolian heritage. Spain struggles to accept its Moorish heritage despite its obvious influence. Britain pretends that it is distinct from the rest of Europe despite centuries of German and French governance. And everyone dismisses the Romans as mere occupiers, as if hundreds of years of mutual society had somehow left their culture and identities unaffected. But of course all of that colonising and invasion was very real, and created new intercultural societies in the process. Perhaps it's simply human nature to struggle to grapple with the immensity of human history.
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Jun 7, 2018 21:32
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FWIW in making that post I did not think I was putting forward the kind of ~~hot take~~ that would send a bunch of other people tumbling down a slippery slope; among the museology and history folks I hang out with and in university art history work I’ve done it’s pretty conventional wisdom that imperial museums are increasingly and shakily defensive of their universalist imprimatur  And I will say I’m kind of surprised this thread of all places has readers who so completely refuse to engage with the idea that there might be a spectrum of legitimacy of claims on historical artifacts as to insist that the call to repatriate stuff nabbed in the very late 1800s is the same as calling for un-quarrying pyramid stones (???). If there is a legitimate human interest that might be served, such as allowing colonized places a shot at establishing academic and tourist centers around their own artifacts, rather than having it dictated by London, for instance, that is a concrete benefit that might be enjoyed by (in the case of Benin) 3rd or 4th generation descendants of the people from whom they were taken.
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Jun 7, 2018 21:33
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i don't think anyone can attend the british museum and not leave with the unshakable impression "boy these people took everything that wasn't nailed down. and then came back a crowbar." i actually found the contrast with the imperial war museum - a museum with imperial in the loving title - actually quite shocking. the IWM doesn't try on the same "we're a Compendium of the Human Condition" horseshit. the war museum was more "yeah we shot them and we took it. here's the gun we shot them with!" CoolCab fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jun 7, 2018 |
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Jun 7, 2018 21:50
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I feel like I'm going slightly insane because I half remember a story from the history of Republican Rome (maybe kingdom period even), but I can't find any references to it on the internet. It was something about a father in some high office (consul, maybe censor or praetor), and his son being guilty of some kind of treason. Perhaps there was more than one son. And the father didn't forgive the son and had him put to death, even though he had the legal authority to do so and the Senate (or Comitia or whatever) pleaded with him to let him live. Does this sound familiar to anyone here? It really feels like the basic Republic over family virtue stories, but this is surprisingly hard to search for if you don't know the name of the man.
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Jun 7, 2018 22:34
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I guess my mind keeps going between the whole stylites at the temple of Zeus thing where the wacky history of ancient ruins is itself a really interesting subject that restoration kind of seeks to cover up, and the way that a lot of people act like every interaction between native american groups and the US government is some kind of reparations for centuries past actions, ignoring the fact that native relations is active history involving treaties between them and the US government that go up to the present day (and are often breached). Greece isn't just some long-dead party with reparations going to its next of kin, it's an active actor, and there's a real sort of nationalistic myth-making component there, as well as economic calculations in addition to academic interests. Which is not to say that nationalistic myth-making is an illegitimate practice, it just kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The average Greek person today would probably find more in common with a Ukrainian than a Greek from 2,500 years ago. edit: EricBauman posted:Does this sound familiar to anyone here? It really feels like the basic Republic over family virtue stories, but this is surprisingly hard to search for if you don't know the name of the man. Reminds me of a story about a general executing his own son for disobedience, teaching about the virtues of impartiality and obedience to your commander instead. SlothfulCobra fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jun 7, 2018 |
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Jun 7, 2018 22:36
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SlothfulCobra posted:Yup, the English sure have no hellenic influence whatsoever and don't trace any of their cultural touchstones back to that area as some kind of "birthplace of western civilization" no sirree. Cultural butterfly effect telephone games over millennia is the same connection as the direct descendent culture still living in the exact location. Sure thing mate.
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Jun 7, 2018 22:37
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Meh. You can always make more sons as a man but honor is forever.
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Jun 7, 2018 22:38
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