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frugalmaster posted:Also, how can you guys analyze the moral message of a movie that changed directors when it was pretty much 90% done and completely changed in tone and style? Besides that Ron Howard saw fit to put his name on the final product, there is a final product here. The final product is just a weird one where the movie starts with a context-less sequence where Han steals 8000 space bucks from an old lady and then throws acid in her face. Like TFA, there’s the weird thing where our hero starts just spontaneously murdering space-American troops, despite having no big motivation to do so. One of the most remarkable things in Solo is how nobody really gives a poo poo about anything they do. Han doesn’t care where coaxium comes from or what it does. He gives a shitload of it to a girl because she says something nonspecific about a rebellion. What is she rebelling against, in this context? Woody Harrelson never actually acts untrustworthy, but Han dupes him anyways. The ‘lifeblood of the rebellion’ was extracted from Wookiee slaves. Kira leaves and Han... shrugs? Han brutally kills a building-sized space god creature. You can go on like this, while moments where characters actually care can certainly be counted on one hand.
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Jun 8, 2018 04:17
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Luke just gives up. God drat do I hate this more than anything about the Nu Star Wars. After all he's been through, Luke Skywalker ends up as a pathetic Yoda parallel. loving brilliant screenwriting, Rian Johnson. You took a clear character arc from the OT and utterly ruined it. Luke is as dumb as Anakin. Nobody learns anything in the Star Wars universe. It's an exercise in redundancy.
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Jun 8, 2018 05:48
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Lmao #NotMyLuke
CelticPredator fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 06:18
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CelticPredator posted:Lmao #NotMyLuke It's true though. His whole character arc in the OT was about learning those lessons and growing into the kind of person who would not repeat the mistakes of the past.Hell it's the same with the Rebellion/Galaxy as a whole. But TLJ acts as though ANH Luke is the only Luke, when we for a fact saw him develop into Ewok Celebration Luke through the course of two whole additional movies. It's painfully obvious that instead of being organic believable character growth the returning characters in the sequels act arbitrarily at the whims of corporate mandates. It's the same reason that the Nu New Republic was such a wet fart. It was decided that the story would repeat Rebel vs. Empire even though it made no sense to the story. So they bent the setting and characters into unnatural contortions to make it so. Likewise since they wanted there to be no reformed Jedi Order they have to bend Luke's character into whatever bizarre shape will let them do that.
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Jun 8, 2018 07:31
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Weird that people are more upset by Luke Skywalker being a fat coward loser than when the whole attempted murder of his nephew thing.
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Jun 8, 2018 07:48
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Ewok Celebration Luke was my favorite action figure.
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Jun 8, 2018 07:49
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They're making a Hot Toys of Han when he's on that mud planet that was like 15 minutes of screen time.
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Jun 8, 2018 08:23
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Star Wars collectors are buying hot toys troopers with a china dish style deco. I don’t really get it. The only way I can see the figure working is if he had that  look when poo poo was going down right at the start of that scene.
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Jun 8, 2018 08:28
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galagazombie posted:But TLJ acts as though ANH Luke is the only Luke, when we for a fact saw him develop into Ewok Celebration Luke through the course of two whole additional movies. I've actually got a crackpot theory that RotJ didn't happen in TLJ's continuity. Like, the whole theme of Rey's interaction's with Luke is that he doesn't live up to the legend she believed, and when he finally goes into action, it turns out to be another illusion. Why not extend that backwards? Rey believes what we saw in RotJ was the truth, but what if that's just another legend that the real Luke never lived up to? Rey says that Luke believed that Vader could be turned, but Luke never confirms that it actually happened, he just looks sad and says because of that he became a legend. Nobody else really saw what happened on the Death Star between Luke, Vader and the Emperor - what if, in reality, Luke failed there? What if everything we saw onscreen is just the legends Rey grew up on? And so we get what we saw in TLJ, a Luke that still sees the failure of the old Jedi order, yet cannot see the alternative. A Luke that's terrified of being exposed as a fraud, and so hides rather than fights. A Luke that no longer believes in redemption, either for his nephew or himself. A Luke that hates and despises the legend that grew from the lie he told to try and redeem the memory of Anakin Skywalker, and wants nothing to do with the people that still might believe in it. Tell me that doesn't make more sense.
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Jun 8, 2018 08:55
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I like the idea of heroes failing morally after they "win". In real life, you should never have "heroes" (though of course you may admire others for their achievements) because they wil always let you down. It's fair enough to have that in fiction as well sometimes.
Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 10:31
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Angry Salami posted:I've actually got a crackpot theory that RotJ didn't happen in TLJ's continuity. Like, the whole theme of Rey's interaction's with Luke is that he doesn't live up to the legend she believed, and when he finally goes into action, it turns out to be another illusion. Why not extend that backwards? Rey believes what we saw in RotJ was the truth, but what if that's just another legend that the real Luke never lived up to? or, and hear me out here because this might sound crazy, its just a really badly written movie e: Wheat Loaf posted:I like the idea of heroes failing morally after they "win". In real life, you should never have "heroes" (though of course you may admire others for their achievements) because they wil always let you down. It's fair enough to have that in fiction as well sometimes. even if you favor that, it's something the movie essentially tells you rather than actually showing you (despite film being a visual medium)- Luke is essentially a different character and all we get to explain that is some tossed off exposition we don't see what led to his failures, and the failures we're told of are not what would be expected to organically emerge out of the character we had previously known, or even failures that might emerge because of some unexplored aspect of his personality- they're in direct contradiction to what we know about him, i.e. the most hopeful guy in the OT, the man who saw the potential for good in Darth Vader and went to great lengths to redeem him, is now trying to preemptively murder his student/nephew and spends the limited time he has available before the backlash of his overcast wizard spell kills him mocking Kylo LGD fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 11:59
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Wheat Loaf posted:I like the idea of heroes failing morally after they "win". In real life, you should never have "heroes" (though of course you may admire others for their achievements) because they wil always let you down. It's fair enough to have that in fiction as well sometimes. You know, they say people don't believe in heroes anymore. Well, drat them! You and me, we're going to give them back their heroes! They should have let George Miller write and direct the sequel trilogy.
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Jun 8, 2018 12:02
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LGD posted:or, and hear me out here because this might sound crazy, its just a really badly written movie Bad writing? In a Star Wars movie?!
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Jun 8, 2018 12:16
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Weird that people are more upset by Luke Skywalker being a fat coward loser than when the whole attempted murder of his nephew thing. Maybe because he never actually attempts murder? Just a thought. SuperMechagodzilla posted:she says something nonspecific about a rebellion. What is she rebelling against, in this context? That's actually a question I had coming out of Solo; is Enfys talking about The Rebellion? Or just a rebellion? Cause she goes on about rising up against the crime syndicates, but doesn't mention the Empire at all.
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Jun 8, 2018 12:16
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SimonCat posted:
Picture it as Max walks into the desert after freeing The Citadel of immortan Joe's terrible reign, Furiosa looks up to see a battle in the upper atmosphere and a star destroyer crashing through the sky on its way into the planet surface ,cue the John Williams music. tarzan fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 12:24
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jivjov posted:Maybe because he never actually attempts murder? Just a thought. He goes to his sleeping nephew with intent to kill and readies a weapon. He then claims in a flashback from his perspective that he totally changed his mind and wasn't actually going to do it. It's clear bullshitting and self-delusion. What's especially disturbing is that fans don't seem to have a problem with Luke Skywalker planning to murder his nephew. Like what you're objecting to is the claim that he "actually attempts murder," but blithely accept that he was planning and ready to kill a family member placed in his trust. Fans are that broken.
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Jun 8, 2018 12:33
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The narrative of the film is that Rey is surprised to see the change in Luke, then learns about the reasons for it. It stands to reason then that we'd be introduced to Luke after he's undergone a change, then learn about why it happens through flashbacks. It's up to you how you interpret the character, but I've never seen Luke as someone who doesn't make mistakes. He came pretty close to killing Vader before stopping himself, and I believe what he did with Ben Solo was similar. Unfortunately in that case just coming close was enough of a mistake. The part where he taunts Kylo is an important part of his plan. He needed him to call off his army and have an extended 1v1 fight with an intangible hologram. Ren would only do that and not realize the trick if he were too angry to think straight.
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Jun 8, 2018 12:35
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The part where he taunts Kylo is an important part of his plan. He needed him to call off his army and have an extended 1v1 fight with an intangible hologram. Ren would only do that and not realize the trick if he were too angry to think straight. Let's remember that the reason he's angry is that Luke Skywalker was going to murder him in his sleep.
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Jun 8, 2018 12:38
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:He goes to his sleeping nephew with intent to kill and readies a weapon. He then claims in a flashback from his perspective that he totally changed his mind and wasn't actually going to do it. It's clear bullshitting and self-delusion. Did you watch the film? He has a moment of blind instinct that he immediately regrets
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Jun 8, 2018 12:49
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Weird that people are more upset by Luke Skywalker being a fat coward loser than when the whole attempted murder of his nephew thing. I am more upset Luke never got to meet a girl, marry and have children, live a normal fulfilling life in the Disney """Canon""". You know that moment in the end of LOTR where Sam hugs Frodo in sunset and then goes home with the end theme play in the background? Disney took it from him, in the name of pimping bland rear end new characters.
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Jun 8, 2018 12:51
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jivjov posted:Did you watch the film? He has a moment of blind instinct that he immediately regrets That's just another way of saying "temporary insanity". In fact, it being instinctual would be revealing of his character. And we find out that he hesitated from a flashback that's explicitly from his perspective. He's simply deluding himself. tino posted:I am more upset Luke never got to meet a girl, marry and have children, live a normal fulfilling life in the Disney """Canon""". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5yRi1jgOlE
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Jun 8, 2018 12:52
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Wheat Loaf posted:I like the idea of heroes failing morally after they "win". In real life, you should never have "heroes" (though of course you may admire others for their achievements) because they wil always let you down. It's fair enough to have that in fiction as well sometimes. No, do you follow history? IRL heroes go into politics in the 2nd half of their lives and run reckless economic policies. Look at the dude on your 20 dollar bill. This happens in a lot of different countries too.
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Jun 8, 2018 12:56
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That's just another way of saying "temporary insanity". In fact, it being instinctual would be revealing of his character. Yeah, cause Luke Skywalker has never run off and done something like that before. https://youtu.be/U1MnMA0TzGIt=3m59s
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Jun 8, 2018 12:58
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jivjov posted:Yeah, cause Luke Skywalker has never run off and done something like that before. So you're saying it's characteristic of him to try to murder people, including young placed in his trust? As in, the excuse that he changed his last moment would be uncharacteristic and thus bullshit?
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Jun 8, 2018 13:01
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The real Star Wars is the story told to the kids in Reign of Fire.
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Jun 8, 2018 13:11
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:So you're saying it's characteristic of him to try to murder people, including young placed in his trust? As in, the excuse that he changed his last moment would be uncharacteristic and thus bullshit? I'm saying he's grown from RotJ. He gets through his moment without actually attempting murder, unlike with Vader.
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Jun 8, 2018 13:13
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CelticPredator posted:Lmao #NotMyLuke #MyLuuke
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Jun 8, 2018 13:15
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tino posted:No, do you follow history? IRL heroes go into politics in the 2nd half of their lives and run reckless economic policies. Look at the dude on your 20 dollar bill. I am not an American so I genuinely have no idea who isn't on a 20 dollar bill, sorry. If they were someone bad, then that reinforces my view - never have heroes because they'll always let you down. It is literally the only thing they can ever do. It isn't impossible for them to live up to the fantasy we project on to them.
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Jun 8, 2018 13:19
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LGD posted:even if you favor that, it's something the movie essentially tells you rather than actually showing you (despite film being a visual medium)- Luke is essentially a different character and all we get to explain that is some tossed off exposition It is the same Luke. He learned to control his darker impulses and focusing on the future rather than the present, but he has been consistently shown in the OT as a guy whose basic character is to buck authority, rush off heedless, daydream of the future and neglect the present. I say he learns to control it, but he can't suppress it fully on an instinctive level. He fails with Kylo because of his own human nature - because of original sin - and that failure leads him to despair. He suddenly realizes he can't change even himself, on the deep level required so that he never fails again. This is character growth - the dark night of the soul. It's not pleasant to see Luke going through it, but it's believably in character for it to have happened because he is a hero, and thus feels his failure all the more acutely.
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Jun 8, 2018 13:25
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jivjov posted:I'm saying he's grown from RotJ. He gets through his moment without actually attempting murder, unlike with Vader. He simply "gets through" desire to murder his nephew, as one would get over a bad mood.
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Jun 8, 2018 13:26
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Wheat Loaf posted:I am not an American so I genuinely have no idea who isn't on a 20 dollar bill, sorry. You sound like some angst Rion Johnson type who doesn't know anything about history and just randomly make up poo poo from your rear end. Like, what even is your definition of "hero." tino fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 13:33
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jivjov posted:I'm saying he's grown from RotJ. He gets through his moment without actually attempting murder, unlike with Vader. Hahaha holy poo poo.
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Jun 8, 2018 13:45
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:He goes to his sleeping nephew with intent to kill and readies a weapon. He then claims in a flashback from his perspective that he totally changed his mind and wasn't actually going to do it. It's clear bullshitting and self-delusion. His near killing Ben was an act of cowardice, so people being upset him being a fat coward is inclusive of that
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Jun 8, 2018 13:57
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Schwarzwald posted:DJ's point of view isn't that nothing matters and that fighting for something good isn't worthwhile. It's that the Resistance/Republic/Rebellion do not fight for good, and therefore they specifically do not matter. turn left hillary!! noo posted:It is the same Luke. He learned to control his darker impulses and focusing on the future rather than the present, but he has been consistently shown in the OT as a guy whose basic character is to buck authority, rush off heedless, daydream of the future and neglect the present. I say he learns to control it, but he can't suppress it fully on an instinctive level.
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Jun 8, 2018 14:03
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Lord Hydronium posted:
It’s not though. Nothing Luke did in Disney Star Wars added anything interesting or relevant to the character. He’s now an idiot quitter. I swear some of you will like any Star Wars movie regardless of quality.
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Jun 8, 2018 14:15
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Rose does save Finn from death, and doesn't really get credit for that. But she was sacrificing the lives of the entire resistance to do it, if not for the rogue space wizard she didn't know about. They should have tried to write the scene so Finn's suicide run was more out of revenge and more explicitly futile for Rose's message to make any sense. Also Finn did not consent to kiss you and that is NOT ok.
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Jun 8, 2018 14:19
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Lol at anyone in the fictional Star Wars universe entertaining the concept of original sin
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Jun 8, 2018 14:21
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Finn would not have stopped the laser.
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Jun 8, 2018 14:22
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What makes you say that
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Jun 8, 2018 14:29
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:What makes you say that his maneuver was ineffective and hopeless and he was throwing his life away out of blind rage towards the first order .
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Jun 8, 2018 14:33
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