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21 Muns posted:I'm not Metalogical and I don't hate Ward, but I'll try to provide some of my own insight on it. I'm tentatively positive on Ward, but I think this is largely because it's ongoing and I'm disinclined to seriously criticize it as long as I don't actually know where it's going. I have a lot of problems with Ward so far that I've been suppressing out of some hope that they'll eventually be resolved. I'm honestly having trouble wrapping my head around this complaint. Can you provide some examples, because I'm having trouble thinking of a single problem that's been "not so bad," as opposed to a Chekov's Gun that just hasn't gone off yet. The one threat that's been mostly resolved, the Fallen, came at a huge cost for both the heroes and the world. The Hollow Point guys are still out there, presumably now very angry. Tattletale thought war with Earth Cheit was only a week away, and that was before the portals became impossible to use as defensive chokepoints. Society is coming apart at the seams after the portal incident, with basic infrastructure like power and food distribution failing, riots and crimes of opportunity becoming commonplace, and all of the frustrated anti-parahuman people we learned about in the prologue apparently forming impromptu vigilante groups. Broken triggers are still a thing, and may be much more widespread then the cast knows, given what we've learned fairly recently about Rain's cluster and Ashley. None of the character's mental issues have been resolved except maybe Rain's. In summary, poo poo's hosed, yo. If anything, I think the story has the opposite problem: it's a very slow burn, with a huge amount Chekov's Guns and doomsday scenarios being set up without being resolved. I mean, I think you can understand why WB is structuring the story like that, when the worst part of Worm (Taylor joining the heroes) was necessitated by him running out of established threats to throw at the protagonists, but it's still a valid complaint. You could also accuse the story of being meandering or unfocused, although I don't necessarily agree with that. I just don't get the argument that things... aren't hosed enough, yet? Am I misunderstanding what you are saying? Edit: VVV You might be right about that, I don't recall. Still, there's no real reason to suspect we've heard the last of them. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 10:59
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the main team of the wardens was waiting in cedar point for those guys to get back home after the fighting, i thought?
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Jun 8, 2018 14:38
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As much as I'm enjoying Practical Guide to Evil, I have noticed that the author seems to really, really love grunting and "mirthlessly smiling."Falstaff posted:The government of the Wormverse is completely corrupt, top to bottom. And still better than some powered teenagers running everything as effectively dictators. If I had to choose between the Brockton Bay heroes and Taylor/the Undersiders, I would absolutely choose the former. edit: Like, the government might be corrupt, but Taylor/Undersiders are just directly dictators, which isn't exactly better.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:21
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Random rear end in a top hat posted:If anything, I think the story has the opposite problem: it's a very slow burn, with a huge amount Chekov's Guns and doomsday scenarios being set up without being resolved. I mean, I think you can understand why WB is structuring the story like that, when the worst part of Worm (Taylor joining the heroes) was necessitated by him running out of established threats to throw at the protagonists, but it's still a valid complaint. Well this was my complaint. Ward has taken forever to go anywhere at all, and has filled the intervening time with minutiae or wallowing in its characters' psychological trauma. Most chapters lack any dramatic tension and are just about Victoria trying to avoid a mental breakdown while talking to the team lawyer or whatever. I also think the powers and consequently action scenes lack a sense of logic and groundedness that was present in most of Worm, though there are exceptions. The Ashley arc was good.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:21
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Metalogical posted:Well this was my complaint. Ward has taken forever to go anywhere at all, and has filled the intervening time with minutiae or wallowing in its characters' psychological trauma. Most chapters lack any dramatic tension and are just about Victoria trying to avoid a mental breakdown while talking to the team lawyer or whatever. I also think the powers and consequently action scenes lack a sense of logic and groundedness that was present in most of Worm, though there are exceptions. The Ashley arc was good. I wonder - and this is an actual "I wonder" and not a pointed "gently caress you you're wrong" - if people feel this way about Ward because they're reading it as it comes out, rather than bingeing it in two weeks like most people did Worm.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:42
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Calef posted:I wonder - and this is an actual "I wonder" and not a pointed "gently caress you you're wrong" - if people feel this way about Ward because they're reading it as it comes out, rather than bingeing it in two weeks like most people did Worm. I'm sure it's a factor but Worm just objectively has snappier pacing. There's a lot less internal monologue and a lot more throwing the characters into the next crisis.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:56
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Ytlaya posted:As much as I'm enjoying Practical Guide to Evil, I have noticed that the author seems to really, really love grunting and "mirthlessly smiling." And the clenching and unclenching of fists.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:03
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My mind was blown at the revelation that Juniper has hair. Catherine occasionally mentions how she has to remind herself that, despite being likeable, Black is bad. But I'm not really seeing what Black is doing wrong in the specific context of their world, and I get the impression that he would be okay with less executions if it could produce the same outcome. It's not clear to me what Catherine would do differently.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:35
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Ytlaya posted:My mind was blown at the revelation that Juniper has hair. Black is trying to win the game by forging a new, less super, more banal evil. Catherine is going to end up flipping the table entirely and just ending the game.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:14
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NinjaDebugger posted:Black is trying to win the game by forging a new, less super, more banal evil.
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Jun 8, 2018 21:06
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Cicero posted:Black's evil doesn't even sound very evil most of the time. Most of the political fights and sniping each others' Named are things that both sides engage in, Black is just better at it. My theory is that we're not actually dealing with good and evil here, but shin megami tensei order and chaos. Those tend to overlap varyingly with good and evil. Black is essentially trying to move the empire's chaos away from evil enough that it becomes effective. NinjaDebugger fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 21:19
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Metalogical posted:Well this was my complaint. Ward has taken forever to go anywhere at all, and has filled the intervening time with minutiae or wallowing in its characters' psychological trauma. Most chapters lack any dramatic tension and are just about Victoria trying to avoid a mental breakdown while talking to the team lawyer or whatever. I also think the powers and consequently action scenes lack a sense of logic and groundedness that was present in most of Worm, though there are exceptions. The Ashley arc was good. Metalogical posted:I'm sure it's a factor but Worm just objectively has snappier pacing. There's a lot less internal monologue and a lot more throwing the characters into the next crisis. I like your feedback, it's interesting to see the story through a lens I wouldn't have necessarily put it through myself.  EDIT: As a mentally ill person I enjoy the thought put into mental illness and psychological trauma, but that's also not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
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Jun 8, 2018 21:30
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This is just top-of-my head impressions, not a particularly well-thought out critique, but for me Ward is occupying a weird place; it's probably the best-written WB serial to date, and there are tons and tons of individual scenes that I enjoy the heck out of, but the work as a whole just isn't gelling for me. This is subjective, but my main critiques: 1) The structure and pacing are terrible. I know part of this is because it's a serial, but I'm extremely bored and frustrated with the meandering narrative in a way I never was when I followed Twig. WB needs to either hire an editor, or start planning his stuff better and building a buffer so he's not writing by the seat of his pants. 2) There is no story. I'm sure this point will become moot in retrospect, but I'm hundreds of thousands of words into a story and still couldn't tell someone else what it's about in ten words or less. It feels like he knows what characters and themes he wants to play with, but doesn't have a clear story to tell with them. It feels like there are a million characters, dozens and dozens of intersecting plotlines and fakeouts, and no payoff. By this point I've stopped caring, and the only reason I'm still reading are because the stand-out sections are genuinely great, and because I like his prior work. 3) Too many nazis. I hope Rain dies offscreen and never bothers us again. (Spoilers: this will never happen.) 4) The worst parts get the most screentime. I love the mental illness and slice-of-life stuff, but I am studiously apathetic to the cape BS and world-saving hijinks at best. Entire arcs spent on complicated action scenes make me miss the days when Worm could introduce a problem, have a fight, and wrap it up within 4-5k words.
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Jun 8, 2018 23:30
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NinjaDebugger posted:My theory is that we're not actually dealing with good and evil here, but shin megami tensei order and chaos. Those tend to overlap varyingly with good and evil. I agree for the most part. However the gods below are obviously order and not chaos. Easy mistake to make because you usually think chaotic evil and lawful good. I do at least. Above: different choirs with different agendas and methods, procer is a tangled mess of small kingdoms, hordes of throw away named. Wandering bard throwing wrenches everywhere. Bumbling conjurer, rogue sorcerer (just the names really) It goes on and on. Below: devils are lawful, the tower is order, gods below have no obvious schisms. Small close knit teams of named or even solo named. The legions. Black is self evident, he’s described as a methodical machine. Warlock and hierophant (categorising and trying to figure out how he world works) (compare it to rogue sorceror, bumbling conjurer, witch of the woods) (name wise it reeks of chaos) I’m counting demons as outside the whole devils and angels (and I think the story also mentions this)
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Jun 8, 2018 23:48
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Affi posted:I agree for the most part. However the gods below are obviously order and not chaos. Easy mistake to make because you usually think chaotic evil and lawful good. I do at least. Hard disagree. Individual nations may look disorderly, but fundamentally, the empire is absolutely SMT chaos, which is all about the strongest ruling regardless of where they started. The current Dread Empress was a barmaid when it all began, and that's a story that fundamentally is not allowed in the 'good' nations, where such a person would turn out to have been a noble all along, and therefore have the right to rule, like they offered Catherine when she pulled the sword out of the stone. Essentially, SMT Order is about hierarchies and how you're not allowed to step outside them, while Chaos is about the only hierarchy that matters being power. Hell, even your examples point to that. Villains are about taking as much power as you can for yourself, however you can get it, while heroes are about doing what you can with what you're given, accepting the decree of the heavens because they're above you. NinjaDebugger fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Jun 9, 2018 |
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Jun 9, 2018 01:00
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I lol'd at Catherine suddenly deciding to take no prisoners because her buddy happened to be among the casualties in the battle against the Silver Spears. She is constantly focusing on how it's important to make the logical choices even if they bloody your hands, etc, and then suddenly decides to just throw the idea of gaining information from captives (or the human rights of killing fleeing enemies, though it's questionable if that's A Thing in this setting) out the window because she's pissed about her friend dying. As a side thing, I get the impression Warlock is more Actually Evil in a way Black isn't. Like, Warlock mentioned cutting open living people, and I get the impression that's something he'd do just out of curiosity. Black doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to hurt/kill people for no reason. Captain is also mentioned to have killed a bunch of innocents for no reason (it was mentioned she slaughtered a village in anger when she thought something had happened to Black in the past). edit: I feel like the sort of broader plotting of Practical Guide is really good, but the prose can be kinda eh. There's the aforementioned heavy overuse of certain words/phrases ("grunting" as an alternative to "saying" is probably the worst offender), and the author also has a tendency to throw in kind of cheesy lines that make me think of fanfiction or something. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Jun 9, 2018 |
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Jun 9, 2018 03:11
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Practical guide is.. campy. Like a good B-movie, it is playing to tropes and stuff really well. I think it manages to do some interesting things with a rather silly premise. Combine that with a consistent update rate and how the story hasn't really stagnated as much as you might expect, it is a solid work.
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Jun 9, 2018 03:33
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Can somebody spoil the Damsel interlude for me, please? I’m trying to read it but it so boring and forever taking and I hate her SO MUCH ARGH!
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Jun 9, 2018 07:57
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she killed a giant plant golem during the boston games, ashley remembers dying 7 times and a bunch of other peoples memories besides, she is imprisoned eventually with her sister-clone and they discuss how they and apparently others also remember being shards of the space worms
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Jun 9, 2018 09:03
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ZypherIM posted:Practical guide is.. campy. Like a good B-movie, it is playing to tropes and stuff really well. I think it manages to do some interesting things with a rather silly premise. Combine that with a consistent update rate and how the story hasn't really stagnated as much as you might expect, it is a solid work. One example that comes to mind is the part early on when Kilian is casting some lightning spell and says some lines that I think were supposed to sound really badass* and Catherine is like "oh god that's so hot" and I just felt so vicariously embarrassed for Kilian. Like if she lives to become an adult she will think back upon her badass mage incantations and feel nothing but shame. I do like how everyone gives Black poo poo for being all cryptic and ominous constantly, though. Like he is consciously doing it and everyone knows it. In general I agree that the story is very solid. It also has well written action scenes that I don't have too much trouble following. * I think this actually applies to a lot of the mage incantations. They all seem to follow the pattern of "Some stuff. Some more stuff. Some stuff in italics that sounds badass."
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Jun 9, 2018 09:07
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Ytlaya posted:One example that comes to mind is the part early on when Kilian is casting some lightning spell and says some lines that I think were supposed to sound really badass* and Catherine is like "oh god that's so hot" and I just felt so vicariously embarrassed for Kilian. Like if she lives to become an adult she will think back upon her badass mage incantations and feel nothing but shame. We're talking about a world here where there is an entire nation dedicated to building flying death palaces and shouting "Your doom is upon you, fools!" and "Who dares?!" from the tallest tower.
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Jun 9, 2018 13:57
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Autonomous Monster posted:We're talking about a world here where there is an entire nation dedicated to building flying death palaces and shouting "Your doom is upon you, fools!" and "Who dares?!" from the tallest tower. More, even, because Tyrant has shown that behavior like that is -actively rewarded-, so it's entirely likely that adding overwrought badass chants to your casting actively improves your spells.
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Jun 9, 2018 14:06
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Ytlaya posted:One example that comes to mind is the part early on when Kilian is casting some lightning spell and says some lines that I think were supposed to sound really badass* and Catherine is like "oh god that's so hot" and I just felt so vicariously embarrassed for Kilian. Like if she lives to become an adult she will think back upon her badass mage incantations and feel nothing but shame. I've been procrastinating on reading Practical Guide for a long-rear end time now and I think this bit is the push I finally needed, thanks.
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Jun 9, 2018 15:17
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violent sex idiot posted:she killed a giant plant golem during the boston games, ashley remembers dying 7 times and a bunch of other peoples memories besides, she is imprisoned eventually with her sister-clone and they discuss how they and apparently others also remember being shards of the space worms Thanks. That sounds exhausting
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Jun 11, 2018 01:34
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navyjack posted:Thanks. That sounds exhausting EDIT: Also for slightly more detail, it confirmed she didn't join the S9 willingly but that doesn't change a whole lot of stuff, since like, i guess it's good she wasn't up for taking that final leap into monsterhood but it also doesn't negate the stuff she did earlier and willingly from an ethical perspective. 'Not willing to join the S9' is a super low moral bar. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Jun 11, 2018 |
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Jun 11, 2018 02:35
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PetraCore posted:I enjoyed it but I absolutely enjoy the weird clone memory identity stuff going on with Ashley. Luckily for you, she's presumably going to take a backburner to being a major character for a while. Who's your favorite member of Team Therapy? I think Kenzie is going to end up the most interesting for me. Being the youngest and seen as the most vulnerable could end up pretty crazy if she ends up being as manipulative as some indications seem.
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Jun 11, 2018 04:00
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navyjack posted:I think Kenzie is going to end up the most interesting for me. Being the youngest and seen as the most vulnerable could end up pretty crazy if she ends up being as manipulative as some indications seem. I'm really interested in whatever is going on with Chris.
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Jun 11, 2018 05:00
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Yeah, Kenzie and Chris are the ones I'm most interested in, mostly for the creeping feeling of dread they both evoke. Seeing when the other shoe drops with them (and Amy, can't forget her!) is at least a third of why I'm still checking in regularly.
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Jun 11, 2018 05:21
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PracGuide: Super enjoy getting to see Masego's soul. And he seems to have the demon stuff contained and is studying it, from what I could make out, as opposed to him being corrupted. But yeah, seeing some memories from his perspective was really cool.
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Jun 11, 2018 05:28
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There's an interesting contrast though, in that Chris's entire thing is still pretty mysterious, while we know a lot about the basics about Kenzie's situation: she's got inhibited boundaries and self-preservation and her biggest desire is to make other people happy, which is a super bad combination even when not combined with a super useful and exploitable superpower. She's been doing mostly good in the timeframe of canon, although the thing she almost pulled at Ashley's hearing was still pretty bad, but you see her verbally holding herself back a ton of times. And of course, there's whatever is going on with her parents... Oh, Navyjack, one thing you missed by skipping the Boston Games and Ashley hearing stuff is that Kenzie fabricated flawless 'footage' of BoB clearly menacing and threatening Ashley before Ashley finally killed him in obvious self-defense, then gave this footage to Ashley's counsel and told him not to tell Ashley about it before using it in court because Ashley would refuse to use it out of what Kenzie framed as a misguided desire for punishment. Fortunately Ashley knows Kenzie well enough that she got the counsel to fess up before the hearing started and convinced him it was forged. I know you're not interested in Ashley on her own, but I figured you'd appreciate the insight into how diabolical Kenzie can get when she's got a goal in mind.
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Jun 11, 2018 06:11
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PetraCore posted:There's an interesting contrast though, in that Chris's entire thing is still pretty mysterious, while we know a lot about the basics about Kenzie's situation: she's got inhibited boundaries and self-preservation and her biggest desire is to make other people happy, which is a super bad combination even when not combined with a super useful and exploitable superpower. She's been doing mostly good in the timeframe of canon, although the thing she almost pulled at Ashley's hearing was still pretty bad, but you see her verbally holding herself back a ton of times. And of course, there's whatever is going on with her parents... I actually read that far, and yeah, Kenzie not having any brakes is what makes her so interesting and scary. Also did anybody else notice in recent updates when she says her parents WERE all about regular sit-down meal times? Was that past-tense important? Who knows?
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Jun 11, 2018 06:19
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SerSpook posted:PracGuide: Super enjoy getting to see Masego's soul. And he seems to have the demon stuff contained and is studying it, from what I could make out, as opposed to him being corrupted. Prac Guide: It's kinda sweet that Masego's soul guardians are the idealized forms of the Woe: Insolent Cat, Intense Archer, Implacable Hakram and Sneaky Thief. Even when he was detached from the emotional impact of his memories, the Woe were still his closest companions. SITB fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Jun 11, 2018 |
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Jun 11, 2018 06:52
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Worth the Candle updated a few more chapters.
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Jun 11, 2018 19:26
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I like all of the members of Team Therapy, but it's pretty boring to post that.  well, I like them as characters, i hope i'd have the sense to abruptly go somewhere else in person
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Jun 12, 2018 00:30
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Does the writing in Mother of Learning ever get better? I like the idea of wizard groundhog day, but the clunkiness and general lack of polish and editing in the first few chapters are throwing me off.
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Jun 12, 2018 03:46
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Omi no Kami posted:Does the writing in Mother of Learning ever get better? I like the idea of wizard groundhog day, but the clunkiness and general lack of polish and editing in the first few chapters are throwing me off. It's always read to me like english isn't the author's first language, and unless it took a drastic upturn in the past update or 3 it's the same all the way through.
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Jun 12, 2018 04:24
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Gitro posted:It's always read to me like english isn't the author's first language, and unless it took a drastic upturn in the past update or 3 it's the same all the way through. Aww crud, I'll see if it manages to get me super-duper engaged before the writing defeats me then. I hadn't thought about a potential language issue- my initial read (heh) was that it was the writer's first big project, and they were doing the thing where you picture the scene in your head and then describe it, because the flow of ideas and focus is really weird, and it keeps jumping around and breaking up concepts into multiple sentences spread around a paragraph. Edit: I looked it up and you're right, looks like the author's native language is Croatian. Good call!
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Jun 12, 2018 04:36
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Huh, I wonder if that structure works a lot better in Croatian? Probably at least the way ideas are structured in a single sentence.
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Jun 12, 2018 04:51
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Either I stopped minding the strange structure or that did get a bit better over time. There's still something "off" but it's now something I only occasionally notice.
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Jun 12, 2018 04:53
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I think what it is is that Croatian has a super-duper complex case system that lets you put tons of meaning into a small space and play a little fast and loose with sentence-level syntax. So my wild guess is that a lot of the more awkward sentences are cases where he composed a single sentence in his head that works in Croatian, then had to chop it up into multiple sentences to get all of the ideas into English.
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Jun 12, 2018 05:12
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