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Eric the Mauve posted:This is 100% correct. I don't feel singled out by it either  The timid aspect (timidity?) is a valid criticism as well even outside of this scenario, and something I've been working really hard to change in my daily life.Leaving this place has always been Plan A, I just think that if I know ahead of time that I might be getting part of someone else's job added to mine, I can immediately respond with "cool, I'll need X and Y from you in return" rather than be caught off-guard. They're not in a position to lose anyone else right now so the worst that could happen is that they say no, nothing changes, and I have something to point to when I inevitably leave. Or if I get my way, I can negotiate my next position at another company with greater confidence. I'll go back through the OP again, I read it last summer when I first started job-hunting but I haven't brushed up in a while.
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May 24, 2018 02:03
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I think you specifically should push for a title change as non-negotiable. Salary, well, push as hard as you can. At the end of the day it doesn't matter though, unless you're in a position to leave. You aren't a potential new hire they're excited about, you aren't even a star performer they're worried about losing. You're someone they need to rely on because they are stretched to capacity. Your BATNA is zero and your leverage in the moment is extremely temporary. I mostly think you should look for a title change to help tell a story about your career progression with the next employer. I don't think salary matters with your current employer, because any marginal increase won't make up for the rest of it, and is just incentive to stick around longer.
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May 24, 2018 02:51
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The nuclear option if they just shut you down with a hard no to anything is to hand in your resignation the following day. IF they are genuinely turbofucked without you they will probably accede to your demands to buy themselves enough time to arrange for your replacement, at which point, after a few months, they'll fire you--which is fine because you want out of there anyway and you'd then be getting paid via severance/unemployment to job search full time. I've seen this work more than once, but it really requires the employee to be genuinely irreplaceable in the short term and the employer to not be so petty they'll let the employee walk just out of spite without caring how hard it fucks the department. In your case (C-E) I don't really recommend it because it's more aggressive than you're comfortable with being. But it's an option. It's basically a "guess what, my short term BATNA sucks but yours is even worse, I'm calling your bluff" move.
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May 24, 2018 03:19
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Another thing you could choose to do is to neither resign nor accept the new responsibilities without commensurate compensation. I don't have crisp thoughts on this being better or worse than just resigning.
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May 24, 2018 16:12
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Another thing you could choose to do is to neither resign nor accept the new responsibilities without commensurate compensation. I don't have crisp thoughts on this being better or worse than just resigning. Very situation dependent but this is probably better than accepting the new responsibilities without more pay and/or a title enhancement. Basically just telling them flat no--"if my position and salary are remaining the same then thank you but I am not interested in increased responsibility"--and daring them to fire you. Depending on the jurisdiction and how petty/personal the company is inclined to be, though, they could choose to turn that into a willful misconduct case to deny you unemployment comp after firing you. You'll know they're going that route when you start getting written warnings; in most jurisdictions it takes a big pile of documentation to prove willful misconduct. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 16:21 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 16:17
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What does your contract say? My contract basically says my company can make me do whatever work they want as needed.
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May 24, 2018 17:13
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Job descriptions always end with "other duties as assigned by supervisor". An employer always can tell you to do whatever the hell they want to and then fire you for willful misconduct if you refuse. But it's a huge pain in the rear end to actually prove the WC case, and your long term interests are best served by consistently refusing to do extra work for free. Agreeing to that even once starts you sliding down a very slippery slope.
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May 24, 2018 17:21
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I just accepted a promotion at my current job. They offered me 39k, I asked for 45k. They didn't budge. My new role will be focused on video production. Their argument for not going higher than 39 was because I have no formal training in film production and editing, which is true (I literally picked up Adobe Premiere in January and learned from watching YouTube tutorials, and my company liked what I showed them). I took the promotion anyway. 39k is already a substantial raise (~13%) from where I had been, and my only alternative would have been going back to answering phone calls as front-line tech support, which I wasn't about to do. Plus, they did agree to provide me with online and off-site training for video production and editing to improve my skills. I didn't get the salary I asked for, but I did get what I feel is a healthy compromise. Never not negotiate.
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May 26, 2018 21:09
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Truman Sticks posted:I just accepted a promotion at my current job. They offered me 39k, I asked for 45k. They didn't budge.
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May 31, 2018 01:43
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I had a company express interest in me back at the start of May, but they didn't have an opening until July. I told them I was going to keep interviewing in the interim, and had the chutzpah to ask what they had budgeted for the position. They told me it was 41.5k. So I kept interviewing, now I got an offer for a 10-month contract paying 40.5k. I emailed my contact at the first company and told her about it upfront. I told her I'd prefer to work at her company, but that I would need to see 48k to be making a similar amount on a monthly basis. I'll let you know how it works out! I'm not afraid to walk away and take the BATNA (10 month contract), so I feel pretty comfortable.
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Jun 4, 2018 05:38
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proctorbot posted:I had a company express interest in me back at the start of May, but they didn't have an opening until July. I told them I was going to keep interviewing in the interim, and had the chutzpah to ask what they had budgeted for the position. They told me it was 41.5k. This worked! The first company came back and said they'd pay me 50k + 5% in possible bonuses. It's not a sure thing though, they want to do another interview. I'm going to string along the 10-month contact offer until after that interview (Wednesday). Hoping to get an offer on paper ASAP.
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Jun 5, 2018 07:15
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I'm in the process of being promoted from an engineer role -> solutions architect, under the favor of our c-level. We get along extremely well. There happens to be a total of one solution architect at my current company, I'm going to be the first new one in literally the entire company's existence and will report to the current one - probably until he retires in the next 2-3 years. I've heard people mention 30+% on these kinds of giant promotions, but what can I do to be smarter about this pending promotion? It's basically worded as "will happen soon", but hasn't hit paper yet. I'm thinking extra: vacation/bonuses/stock compensation/incentives/title on top of the expected 30-40% range. I see job postings at 30-50% more doing what I do today at other companies (which I can fill all checkboxes or 95% easily), so I don't want this to be a half assed promotion. My responsibilities are going to go through the roof, and I'm ok with that beyond being blindsided in going from "technical role/deep dive" to "high level/direct c-level interaction". What am I missing here? I feel I'm missing something here. notwithoutmyanus fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 12:39
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notwithoutmyanus posted:I'm thinking extra: vacation/bonuses/stock compensation/incentives/title on top of the expected 30-40% range. I see job postings at 30-50% more doing what I do today at other companies (which I can fill all checkboxes or 95% easily If they offer you 5% what are you going to do? What are you going to ask for and how? You may need to leave this company to get the raise you're looking for.
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Jun 5, 2018 13:54
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I also posted this on the personal finance subreddit, looking for any advice. Yesterday I received an offer for a new job. During the interview we came to an agreement for salary ($80,000); however now that I have the full offer in front of me, the benefits are significantly more expensive that what I am paying at my current employer. For example: Dental insurance is $1,500 more per year than I am paying now They offered me 3 weeks vacation, when I currently have four. Value of $1,538. They only match up to 2% for 401k, my current employer matches 3%. Value of $800. I asked the HR person to send me the details (specifically the payroll deduction) on their available HMO and HSA. However, there's also a good chance this could be more expensive. If I were to accept this offer as is, the increase would only be about $2,000 more than I am making right now, hardly worth accepting and learning a new job for. Is it appropriate to go back and ask for the baseline compensation to be increased based on these numbers?
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Jun 8, 2018 14:52
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Absolutely. But the question is: if they say take it or leave it, are you going to take it? Also note that this is why you negotiate total compensation, never just salary. You shouldn’t agree to a salary before you know every detail of non-salary compensation too.
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Jun 8, 2018 15:36
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Eric the Mauve posted:Absolutely. If they came back with take it or leave it I would just leave it. The commute is about 15 minutes longer, and the hours are less flexible than my current job. That extra time with my wife and kids is more than worth the 2k per year. Once I have the remaining details on the payroll deduction for the HMO/HSA I will counter. With what I know now the minimum I would accept is $85,000, if the HSA/HMO premium is more than I pay now, then that just gets tacked on top.
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Jun 8, 2018 15:55
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Your BATNA is strong so you can ask for more with polite confidence. Don’t ask for the minimum you will accept. Ask for more. Also don’t be shy about asking for more PTO and defaulting back to “well then I’m going to need more salary” if they say no.
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Jun 8, 2018 16:31
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Sock The Great posted:If they came back with take it or leave it I would just leave it. The commute is about 15 minutes longer, and the hours are less flexible than my current job. That extra time with my wife and kids is more than worth the 2k per year. I recently was offered less than what I wanted for a position and emailed the recruiter back stating that I would be paying a significant amount more for insurance and I couldn’t accept less than offer+$5k. They responded that I gave a good justification and gave me offer+$5k and added a $2k signon bonus, so I say go for it and give them your justification.
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Jun 8, 2018 16:39
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Eric the Mauve posted:Your BATNA is strong so you can ask for more with polite confidence. Don’t ask for the minimum you will accept. Ask for more. Also don’t be shy about asking for more PTO and defaulting back to “well then I’m going to need more salary” if they say no. This. Don't ask for only $5k more if the benefits are so much weaker, has a worse commute, and less flexibility. You are in the strong position here, you should ask for the moon and stars, especially if you aren't super duper excited to work there and are just as happy to decline. IMO don't value things like vacation time at just your hourly/salary rate. Sure that's what the "book value" is, but there's huge non-monetary value in health, stress, and flexibility in an extra week of vacation. Similarly, 401k matches, employer HSA contributions, etc. all have tax benefits and compounding effects over time that make them more valuable. Also re: dental insurance, most dental insurance is garbage and hardly covers anything major. At best it's just a monthly payment plan for your 2 annual exams that might cover a filling or two. You should examine whether it is actually worth paying for or not. In many cases, it is not. Dentists also tend to be much much much better than doctors/hospitals in terms of knowing what poo poo costs ahead of time and dealing with cash payments. Guinness fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 18:13
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Guinness posted:This. Don't ask for only $5k more if the benefits are so much weaker, has a worse commute, and less flexibility. You are in the strong position here, you should ask for the moon and stars, especially if you aren't super duper excited to work there and are just as happy to decline. Thanks for this. I talked to their HR girl and she couldn't give me a concrete number for the insurance premium; she has to send my information (names and DOB of me and my dependents) to their broker to get me a rate. This seems really strange to me. Everywhere I've ever worked, and with multiple insurance providers over the years , has always offered the same rate for to each employee. The only thing that would change is the premium if you opted for HSA vs PPO/HMO. We'll see what they say, but I am feeling less and less secure about this place as an employer at all. Deepening on what they come back with, I am leaning towards $87,500 and 4 weeks of vacation; then be willing to part with the 4th week of vacation for the additional money. Yeah most dental insurance is garbage, but what I have now is actually quite good. The only think you'd pay out of pocket (beyond the premium for) is like $50 for a cavity. It even includes orthodontics; which I will definitely need for both my kids. Sock The Great fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 18:42
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Sock The Great posted:I talked to their HR girl and she couldn't give me a concrete number for the insurance premium; she has to send my information (names and DOB of me and my dependents) to their broker to get me a rate. This seems really strange to me. Everywhere I've ever worked, and with multiple insurance providers over the years , has always offered the same rate for to each employee. The only thing that would change is the premium if you opted for HSA vs PPO/HMO. That seems really bizarre, I've never seen something like that in a group policy...
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Jun 8, 2018 18:59
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Guinness posted:That seems really bizarre, I've never seen something like that in a group policy... Yeah I'm a little concerned. The benefits guide clearly states that the provider is Harvard Pilgrim. So if Harvard Pilgrim is the provider, then why does a broker need to be involved? Presumably the broker is shopping around at different providers; which is the whole point of a broker.
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Jun 8, 2018 19:09
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Ask for 100k and 5 weeks and maybe you'll get something resembling what you want.
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Jun 8, 2018 19:20
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Sock The Great posted:Yeah I'm a little concerned. The benefits guide clearly states that the provider is Harvard Pilgrim. So if Harvard Pilgrim is the provider, then why does a broker need to be involved? Presumably the broker is shopping around at different providers; which is the whole point of a broker. They buy their insurance (and other benefits) from a broker. So they don't have direct contact. That's how it happened. Still super weird; number of dependents should be the other thing that matters in small group.
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Jun 9, 2018 00:53
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Sanity check please. Someone in my network referred me to come work at a company with them. I’m currently middle management, and the job title was vague about who I’d manage. I applied anyways, and got a response to fill out an assessment. Here’s where the red flags pile up: 1) Required question what salary range I needed. 2) In the about me section it repeated the question but in free form text, but added the salary for the position which is far too low to negotiate what I want. 3) Asked me to fill out previous jobs with ending pay. So I’m not going to continue with the process since the job isn’t what I’m looking for. Do I send the recruiter an email saying thanks for the time, but based on the assessment we are too far apart to continue? Even if they had a position closer to what I’m doing I don’t know that I’d go through this form.
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Jun 9, 2018 02:18
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savesthedayrocks posted:Sanity check please. Someone in my network referred me to come work at a company with them. I’m currently middle management, and the job title was vague about who I’d manage. I applied anyways, and got a response to fill out an assessment. Here’s where the red flags pile up: Tell the recruiter the posted salary of $X is too low for consideration and move on. Worst case you annoyed a recruiter (the horrors!), best case you get put on an A-list.
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Jun 9, 2018 12:06
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What's the standard procedure for health insurance when changing jobs? I have an offer in hand, which isn't a done deal, one issue is that the insurance doesn't kick in until 30 days after my start date. Can I ask to have the insurance take effect on day 1? Ask for a signing bonus to cover the cost of COBRA from my old employer? I have a family of 4 so this is something I want figured out before I accept.
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Jun 10, 2018 20:23
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Sock The Great posted:What's the standard procedure for health insurance when changing jobs? I have an offer in hand, which isn't a done deal, one issue is that the insurance doesn't kick in until 30 days after my start date. Ask for it on day 1. You can also game it - ESI runs the whole month. Last day July 2 gets all of July covered; eligible August 1?
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Jun 10, 2018 20:37
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Yeah you can definitely get your coverage started day one, it’s easy for HR to do, also.
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Jun 10, 2018 20:55
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Sock The Great posted:What's the standard procedure for health insurance when changing jobs? I have an offer in hand, which isn't a done deal, one issue is that the insurance doesn't kick in until 30 days after my start date. You can and I did. Our company policy is 90 days but when I was offered I asked to start right away or get reimbursed for Cobra. There was zero pushback. I also asked for more vacation since there original offer was less than my current and again zero pushback. Should be easier than pay negotiation.
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Jun 10, 2018 21:07
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Zauper posted:Ask for it on day 1. Yeah, my last day was June 1st and my old employer covered insurance until June 30th until my new employer began coverage on July 1st.
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Jun 10, 2018 21:18
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Guinness posted:This. Don't ask for only $5k more if the benefits are so much weaker, has a worse commute, and less flexibility. You are in the strong position here, you should ask for the moon and stars, especially if you aren't super duper excited to work there and are just as happy to decline. Update on this. I received all the information back on their health insurance and while the premium is slightly lower, the overall benefits are much worse. Essentially their HDCP/HSA premium is $30 less than what I pay now, but has a high deductible. They also only contribute $1,000 per year to the HSA vs. the $5,000 my current employer does. So I shot for the moon. Asked for 100k and 5 weeks of vacation. We'll see what happens.
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Jun 11, 2018 22:58
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Sock The Great posted:So I shot for the moon. Asked for 100k and 5 weeks of vacation. We'll see what happens.
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Jun 11, 2018 23:55
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Sunny Side Up fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Jun 12, 2018 02:13
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I currently work for a contracting company where I get per diem depending on what the project agreements are. I've been doing this for 2 years (started fresh out of school, Chem Eng) and have always had something ranging from 2-3k a month extra from the per diem. Should I consider this like an addition to my salary for the sake of negotiation? I make around 70k now on salary but 100k with the per diem. So if someone offers me 90k I can go back and say that is less than I am making now. I will need 120k or whatever? Is that a reasonable thing to do? I feel like that is what I should be doing, but I have a hard time justifying that number while being this junior, but I've also learned time and time again that I'm the only one who is batting for me.
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Jun 12, 2018 07:07
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Don't tell them it's less than what you're making, don't tell them anything about your current salary.
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Jun 12, 2018 10:22
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120k seems a little high for 2 years out of school though based on the salary info I have for chem Es in the bay area.
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Jun 12, 2018 10:51
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I know, I feel the same way. I think it would be fantastic to be around where I am at now but with another company and a promotion. I'm in the pnw now and I expect offers to be lower. What I wanted to know was how I should handle getting the per diem. But after sleeping on it I realize that there was no guarantee that I would be getting it in the first place. It was all dependent on my specific projects and I am just as likely to get it as not.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:23
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spf3million posted:120k seems a little high for 2 years out of school though based on the salary info I have for chem Es in the bay area. Don't give any details as to the structure of that comp. Your current comp is 100k(at least) and that's your story.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:46
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I don't think this is a good reason not to ask for it. Agreed, except for this quibble: you don’t need a story and shouldn’t give one. It’s not about your story. It’s about your BATNA. Negotiating is basically both sides bluffing about the strength of their BATNA and seeing who blinks first, but you go into it knowing exactly what your BATNA actually is and exactly what is, ultimately, the absolute minimum that tops that. (And of course it’s ideal to also go in knowing what the other side’s BATNA actually is. Hence why HR people are getting increasingly insistent on knowing your current/last salary and why you should never ever tell them.)
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Jun 12, 2018 15:54
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