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Lord Hydronium posted:What it isn't is a change in his personality that means he's free from ever doing or thinking bad things again. He doesn't become a different person in between those two scenes; he comes right to the edge of giving into his anger and hatred, sees the danger, realizes there's a better way, and steps back. He triumphs over the dark side in that moment, but that struggle isn't a thing that just ends once you have the right epiphany. Those feelings of anger and hatred, that temptation to take the quick and easy path will come again. I disagree generally with the overall framing here (for instance I don't think he's "free from doing bad things again", but from a narrative standpoint, the throne room scene certainly feels revelatory enough for Luke that he wouldn't make the exact same mistake again), but as a response to just the bold section: can you see why it may read as hacky or bad writing and/or characterization for Luke to fail to that temptation after having very dramatically overcome it? And then die? Why revisit it?
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Jun 8, 2018 19:11
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Well, for the reasons I've said, I don't think it's revisiting the same conflict. Vader was about whether Luke could forgive someone who had committed great evil to him and his loved ones, and if he could reconcile the good man Anakin with the villain Darth Vader. Ben is about Luke's responsibility for the actions of those under his care and, after the fact, about what he does when he fails to live up to his own ideals. There's different lessons to be learned from each. And I think the bolded part you highlight is just a very general part of the human condition. It's not bad writing to explore it from different angles, since in some form it's the central conflict of the Jedi throughout all the movies. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 19:40
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Lord Hydronium posted:Well, for the reasons I've said, I don't think it's revisiting the same conflict. Vader was about whether Luke could forgive someone who had committed great evil to him and his loved ones, and if he could reconcile the good man Anakin with the villain Darth Vader. Ben is about Luke's responsibility for the actions of those under his care and, after the fact, about what he does when he fails to live up to his own ideals. There's different lessons to be learned from each. Ah I get you; I think we just disagree about whether those were interesting places to take Luke's character, given his complete arc from the OT 
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Jun 8, 2018 19:43
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Lord Hydronium posted:Luke has his lightsaber at the end of ROTJ. He just throws it to the side, not away permanently. Excellent.
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Jun 8, 2018 19:48
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Waffles Inc. posted:Ah I get you; I think we just disagree about whether those were interesting places to take Luke's character, given his complete arc from the OT That’s why talking about this movie is literally impossible
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Jun 8, 2018 19:54
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I’m fine with the idea that Luke has slowly become a grizzled and disenchanted old hermit over time as he surveys the many failures of the Jedi and comes to grips with Yoda and Ben being manipulative bullshit artists. Having his crisis triggered by a prophetic vision and the accompanying drawing a sword to kill a sleeping child is very stupid. Is the prophecy legitimate and unchangeable? Then his failure was to not kill his nephew? Was the prophecy self-fulfilling? Then somehow after decades of devoting his life to the study of the force Luke still doesn’t understand it and this misunderstanding leads to disastrous consequences, which leads you to wonder why anyone thinks Jedi are a good thing at all if they’re trying to harness this amoral power that they don’t understand and can’t control? In either case the answer seems to be that the Jedi are bad, and a bad idea, but the movie decides at the end that actually it’s important that you have someone who can move rocks with their mind because someday you might need that.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:04
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Ben wasn’t a child. He was probably in his late teens early 20’s.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:06
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CelticPredator posted:That’s why talking about this movie is literally impossible now you know what it's like to openly praise the prequels anywhere but CD
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Jun 8, 2018 20:06
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Waffles Inc. posted:Ah I get you; I think we just disagree about whether those were interesting places to take Luke's character, given his complete arc from the OT I do agree that Luke has a complete arc as of the end of ROTJ, and I think any sequel with him has the problem that it's adding on something extra to a story that's basically done. I think that TLJ does a good job picking a direction that builds on that complete story in a way that acknowledges there's only so many places to go from there - what does the hero do after his most heroic moment? How does he see himself? But I get that that angle falls apart if you don't think the key moment with Ben works, or if you think that's not an interesting enough question to warrant where it takes his character.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:10
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Hahah Disney """"""""canon"""""""" Your precious lore is ruuuuuuined. You poor baby!
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Jun 8, 2018 20:22
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So if Ben Solo was unaligned/Jedi for the first 23-ish years of his life prior to slaughtering Luke's Jedi (some time around 28ABY), does that mean we're getting a seventeen-ish year timeskip between VIII and IX so he can be redeemed/die after spending another 23 years as a Dark Sider like his grandfather before him?
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Jun 8, 2018 20:31
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Waffles Inc. posted:now you know what it's like to openly praise the prequels anywhere but CD
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Jun 8, 2018 20:32
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CelticPredator posted:Ben wasn’t a child. He was probably in his late teens early 20’s. Luke definitely should have killed him then.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:42
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Vinylshadow posted:So if Ben Solo was unaligned/Jedi for the first 23-ish years of his life prior to slaughtering Luke's Jedi (some time around 28ABY), does that mean we're getting a seventeen-ish year timeskip between VIII and IX so he can be redeemed/die after spending another 23 years as a Dark Sider like his grandfather before him? I think it's implied that Snoke started to groom the dark side in Ben Solo for some time before Luke even got the fientest indication that it was building in him to the degree that would result in the deaths of billions and well before Luke even thought about ending him in his sleep.
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Jun 8, 2018 21:10
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I'm not interested in Snoke's backstory, but I am interested in the period of time where Snoke was the Solo family's wacky next door neighbor.
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Jun 8, 2018 21:20
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galagazombie posted:It's really not Star Wars fans. It's just people in general and the fact the internet has made being a garbage person on a massive scale easier than ever before conceived. "Normal" people are just as disgusting about being Football fans as fans of "nerd" hobbies. Your not a garbage person for not liking a casting choice or a movie. There are plenty of people that like Mace Windu and Lando Calrissian but hate finn and the seemingly “diversity by corporate mandate” style casting in the new films. However the people harassing kelly Tran on instagram are wrong though. That’s bad.
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Jun 8, 2018 21:59
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Top Gun posted:Your not a garbage person for not liking a casting choice or a movie. There are plenty of people that like Mace Windu and Lando Calrissian but hate finn and the seemingly “diversity by corporate mandate” style casting in the new films. What the gently caress? Why was Sam Jackson and Billie D not considered "diversity by corporate mandate" but Boyega is? Because the first two was Lucas and one is the evil Disney Empire?
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Jun 8, 2018 22:02
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Finn and Rey are both shining points of light in the new trilogy in terms of actor charisma and character likability, it's just a shame that Finn has had basically nothing interesting to do since act 2 of TFA, and Rey has seemed rudderless through all of TLJ, just reacting to things, but at least she had some interesting scenes and pathos.
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Jun 8, 2018 22:08
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AndyElusive posted:What the gently caress? Why was Sam Jackson and Billie D not considered "diversity by corporate mandate" but Boyega is? Because the first two was Lucas and one is the evil Disney Empire? I'm not sure what answer he would give you, but my read is people feel those films go "This Lando, this is Mace, they are black. This is Leia, she's a woman." While the new films go "here is our black character, his name is Finn, here is our girl character, her name is Rey". I don't particularly agree with that sentiment but I think the feeling of those that do is that Disney is checking off marks for a character in the beginning of character creation rather than Organa ically. Though I don't personally agree. I think that's how most characters get designed in most media and usually it's just white people who benefit. Maybe I'd feel different if the actors were actually bad but they aren't.
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Jun 8, 2018 22:15
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Finn and Rey are both shining points of light in the new trilogy in terms of actor charisma and character likability, it's just a shame that Finn has had basically nothing interesting to do since act 2 of TFA, and Rey has seemed rudderless through all of TLJ, just reacting to things, but at least she had some interesting scenes and pathos. this is the biggest failing of TLJ imo- TFA was a highly derivative retread of A New Hope, but it fundamentally did an excellent job setting up a likable cast of new characters who can have pulpy space adventures TLJ does absolutely nothing interesting with any of those new characters, choosing instead to separate them and devoting an inordinate amount of focus to the OT characters (while, as I've been complaining, simultaneously under-serving the development/history of the OT characters in the intervening time period- even if you're cool with Luke ending up a cowardly near-child murderer the movie does a loving terrible job illustrating how that evolution happened or how it would have naturally emerged from the character shown in the OT) TFA set up some dumb/cliched open-ended mysteries, but it was at least constructive in a mediocre manner- in this sense TLJ is more derivative than TFA, because TLJ relies entirely on the goodwill the OT/TFA created towards its characters to make the audience care about anything happening on-screen and then brutally severs the plot threads/character arcs TFA set up, while providing no worthwhile character/plot development of its own, and failing at worldbuilding far harder than TFA did (and compelling worldbuilding was not a particular strength of TFA) LGD fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 22:30
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Detective No. 27 posted:I'm not interested in Snoke's backstory, but I am interested in the period of time where Snoke was the Solo family's wacky next door neighbor. Yeah this is another thing that doesn't make sense. Palpatine seduced Anakin through what I think would be considered bog-standard persuasive methods. Maybe the Force was involved but the way it was presented made it seem like it wouldn't have mattered either way: the Force is likely ambivalent to Anakin's With Freddy Krueger in a bathrobe, we have no idea how he could do that across time and space. And I find it hard to believe that someone who could not sense when he was about to be bisected at the waist would also be able influence someone across the galaxy with nary an introductory handshake.
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Jun 8, 2018 22:32
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Well he tied Rey and Ben together psychically, in a way Luke couldn't even detect, he probably just did the same thing with himself
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Jun 8, 2018 22:36
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I guess he would have had to have been extremely socially isolated to never tell anyone else it was happening, if that's how it happened.
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Jun 8, 2018 22:39
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Well he tied Rey and Ben together psychically, in a way Luke couldn't even detect, he probably just did the same thing with himself pretty sure Ben just found his HyperspaceTube lecture series/podcast during a rebellious phase
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Jun 8, 2018 22:41
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LGD posted:pretty sure Ben just found his HyperspaceTube lecture series/podcast during a rebellious phase Probably recommended to him in YouTube algorithm after watching CrazyBothanHacker force tricks video.
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Jun 8, 2018 22:43
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Yeah this is another thing that doesn't make sense. Palpatine seduced Anakin through what I think would be considered bog-standard persuasive methods. Maybe the Force was involved but the way it was presented made it seem like it wouldn't have mattered either way: the Force is likely ambivalent to Anakin's I think this has a lot to do with how the sequels had literally zero planning or collaboration between directors. Abrams obviously had something in mind about Kylos backstory involving Snoke suducing him Sheev style. But Johnson doesn't want to bother with anything from the last movie and so just mumbles something about force Skype.
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Jun 8, 2018 22:49
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In person in the throne room on Snoke's ship Kylo realizes that while Snoke's robe is golden it's tailored with gold trim instead of a gold fringe, allowing Kylo to legally kill him and take over the First Order.
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Jun 8, 2018 23:02
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See, I thought the script for TLJ was done before TFA started shooting or something like that - I've heard that a lot (since before TLJ came out, actually) but I've never been clear on how accurate it was. Abrams was executive producer on both so I don't think he was ignorant of what was going on with Johnson's ideas. But in that case, maybe I just don't understand the nature of that role, seeing as the title can mean basically anything. Other than that, according to Daisy Ridley, Colin Trevorrow told her how he envisaged Rey's story ending in Episode IX (which she said she liked), so there was presumably some sort of forward planning going on in that regard. Does anyone else remember when Johnson was signed on to write the story for Episode IX but not the script? I recall that being an announcement but I think it sort of vanished either before or around the time Trevorrow was sacked.
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Jun 8, 2018 23:06
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Disney hasn’t really allowed the directors to comment on how their ideas were changed by subsequent directors (whether in the side movies or between 7 and 8), but we've heard things from other people tangentially involved in the creative process. I'm pretty sure Simon Pegg let slip a few months ago that the relationship between Luke and Rey was supposed to be very different from what Rian Johnson came up with. I would guess that Disney doesn’t particularly want to let New Star Wars become the unified vision of a single auteur. It would give that person too much leverage. Notice that the two original directors (out of six) who haven’t been fired (stealth-fired, in Gareth Edwards' case) and are directing more movies are the ones who have apparently acted the most like good little soldiers.
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Jun 8, 2018 23:14
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Wheat Loaf posted:See, I thought the script for TLJ was done before TFA started shooting or something like that - I've heard that a lot (since before TLJ came out, actually) but I've never been clear on how accurate it was. Abrams was executive producer on both so I don't think he was ignorant of what was going on with Johnson's ideas. But in that case, maybe I just don't understand the nature of that role, seeing as the title can mean basically anything. quote:“Here’s what I think I know. J. J. wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote TLJ entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. e: Zoran posted:Disney hasn’t really allowed the directors to comment on how their ideas were changed by subsequent directors (whether in the side movies or between 7 and 8), but we've heard things from other people tangentially involved in the creative process. I'm pretty sure Simon Pegg let slip a few months ago that the relationship between Luke and Rey was supposed to be very different from what Rian Johnson came up with. LGD fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 23:16
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Release the Abrams cut!
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Jun 8, 2018 23:26
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Besides that Ron Howard saw fit to put his name on the final product, there is a final product here. But even if this was your first Star War ever, it's clear from the get-go the Imperial Government is corrupt and negligent to the point of malevolence----under their rule they allow Fagin-esque squatters like Proxima to virtually control the streets. As long as the factories pump out starship parts, the Corellians can live in hell. What's slightly more interesting is the allusion to ethnic strife. How did these lungworm-people (the guy in the mask is also clearly averse to sunlight, I assume he's Proxima's offspring----maybe he budded off her and will grow/become exclusively aquatic as he ages) arrive on Corellia? Why would a species of giant parasites who seem useless for any kind of industrial purpose be welcome anywhere? Like you have the obvious metaphor of this lungworm-like species as literal parasites living on the underbelly of the Empire's vast negligence, but like, what are they bringing to the table of galactic society? Are they reputedly great secretaries?
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Jun 9, 2018 01:07
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Harime Nui posted:But even if this was your first Star War ever, it's clear from the get-go the Imperial Government is corrupt and negligent to the point of malevolence----under their rule they allow Fagin-esque squatters like Proxima to virtually control the streets. As long as the factories pump out starship parts, the Corellians can live in hell. Criminal cabals and susceptibility to bribery are common to pretty much every society and government on some level.
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Jun 9, 2018 01:20
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LGD posted:the problem with this is that they deliberately set out to create a loving interconnected trilogy that would be released in short-succession from the get-go, so they absolutely should have someone imposing a unified vision of some sort - letting different directors play independent auteur with the main line films and clamping down on the anthology films is exactly the opposite of how they ought to be handling things
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Jun 9, 2018 01:31
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Criminal cabals and susceptibility to bribery are common to pretty much every society and government on some level. While that may be true we're actually told at the outset that "it is a lawless time," e.g. the Empire is not doing a good job of ruling the Galaxy. Then you have the brutalist architecture, the East Germany esque checkpoint with its corrupt officials; you see people being violently dragged off almost as if at random while a cowed populace does their best to ignore it; and the war on the front deliberately evoking WWI----it's all visual shorthand so you can understand why escaping or defecting from the Empire is imminently desirable.
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Jun 9, 2018 01:33
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Halloween Jack posted:The Marvel films are a lot less unified than the marketing and the discourse about them would have you believe, and both franchises are making money. (I hate being that guy who just repeats that profitability is all that matters, so: I don't like it either.) Oh certainly (one of the things that's most impressive about Infinity War is how it makes the characters still largely feel like they're in their respective franchises), but to me there are pretty obvious structural differences between a loosely connected series of films that take place in the same universe and vaguely foreshadow aspects of the big crossover films that happen every few years and a trilogy of films that is telling a single grand narrative focused on the same set of characters Disney Marvel puts forth some effort to keep the rules of the universe these films take place in broadly consistent (and characters to a lesser degree), and within that framework they've got quite a bit of flexibility re: tone/genre/etc. that applies even within individual sub-franchises, because even with the longer term plot threads/character arcs each film is largely a self-contained story, and so it's not a big deal that, say, Thor 3 is a fairly substantial departure from its predecessors that would be a great approach for the Star Wars anthology films, or a series of different SW-branded space adventures featuring different groups of characters that occasionally interconnect, but the whole point of a trilogy (that is actually intended as such from its inception) is that the story being told is too large for a single film - in that case I think you very much do need some sort of guiding vision behind where you're ultimately going (actual auteur or no), or you've got a high likelihood of ending up in the weeds
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Jun 9, 2018 02:14
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Wheat Loaf posted:I liked ROTJ best when I was little. I just finished watching ROTJ. You guys need to get of the ROTJ bashing because that movie is loving brilliant. The only scene I can live without is when Luke is explaining to Leah that he must turn himself in.
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Jun 9, 2018 02:32
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Again, we should be specific. The narrative of TLJ is that Luke effectively watched the prequels, and then gave up because he (correctly) saw the Jedi Order as a mirror to himself. Luke’s flaw is specifically that he is bad at reading. He badly misreads the prequels, and completely misunderstands why the Jedi Order failed. Consequently, Luke has no clue why he failed as a teacher. Again, here is Luke’s interpretation of the prequels: “If your strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure. Hypocrisy, hubris. At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out. It was a Jedi Master who was responsible for the training and creation of Darth Vader.” And, implicitly: “The Jedi saw Anakin, with that mighty Skywalker blood. In their hubris, they thought they could train him, they could pass on their strengths. ... By the time they realized they were no match for the darkness rising in him, it was too late.” That’s pretty much all false. Here’s the truth: ‘If your strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is injustice. Slavery, terrible violence. At the height of their powers, the Jedi actively assisted Senator Palpatine in his rise, and in the creation of the Empire. It was a Jedi Master who trained the fascist Anakin Skywalker. The Jedi saw Anakin as the Chosen One, the incarnation of the Force. They trained him, passing on their strengths. ... They never realized that their strength came from darkness. The Republic they served was terribly unjust. The contradiction drove Anakin to madness, and so they wiped themselves out.’ And since Luke is talking about himself: ‘If your strip away the myth and look at my deeds, my legacy is injustice. Slavery, terrible violence. At the height of my power, I actively assisted Snoke in his rise, and in the creation of the First Order. I trained Ben Solo. I saw Ben as the successor to my power. I trained him, passing on my strengths. ... I never realized that my strength came from darkness. The Republic we served was terribly unjust. The contradiction drove Ben to madness, and so I destroyed everything.’ Luke does never having figured out the truth. He instead ‘prints the legend’. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Jun 9, 2018 |
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Jun 9, 2018 02:50
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Waffles Inc. posted:now you know what it's like to openly praise the prequels anywhere but CD Nowadays any Youtube video that off-handedly mention how the Prequels "sucked" will have every visible comment below it telling you how the Prequels are good.
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Jun 9, 2018 04:50
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The MSJ posted:Nowadays any Youtube video that off-handedly mention how the Prequels "sucked" will have every visible comment below it telling you how the Prequels are good. You are the only warrior brave enough to face the thunderdome of bullshit that are youtube comments.
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