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HorrificExistence posted:Emancipation just means the flag changes apparently. Have you graduated high school
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Jun 9, 2018 06:05
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:if you can look at the collapse of the soviet union or yugoslavia and tell me with a straight face it wasnt nationalism that ultimately destroyed them, you might be a redneck. the primary reason most of the warsaw pact split off was not a consequence of socialist economics but nationalist reaction to perceived russian dominance. Paring this down to its essential point: nationalism creates an imagined community which has interests separated from the whole of humanity - and the reason it doesn't work as a basis for socialism is that national communities will always seek unfair advantages over others.
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Jun 9, 2018 06:11
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Jeb! Repetition posted:By the way nothing I'm saying is ultimately in support of US intervention in Syria which I'm against Idk, man, they both claim to infringe on one another's right to exist. Guess we just have to respect sovereignty on this one. Israel is a great example of your beloved self-determination in action, they want a community just for themselves based on some historic claim to the land and surprise, surprise, they end up becoming crazy ethnonationalists. A less funny and more tragic version of the greater Armenia campaign HorrificExistence has issued a correction as of 06:15 on Jun 9, 2018 |
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Jun 9, 2018 06:11
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Paring this down to its essential point: nationalism creates an imagined community which has interests separated from the whole of humanity - and the reason it doesn't work as a basis for socialism is that national communities will always seek unfair advantages over others. yep
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Jun 9, 2018 06:16
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HorrificExistence posted:Idk, man, they both claim to infringe on one another's right to exist. Guess we just have to respect sovereignty on this one. Israel is a great example of your beloved self-determination in action, they want a community just for themselves based on some historic claim to the land and surprise, surprise, they end up becoming crazy ethnonationalists. Israel is not a de facto province of Palestine. They aren't seeking self-determination. Self-determination is specifically when a nation breaks out of the control that another nation imposes on it (which creates actual hierarchy by the way, because the people of the controlled nation always exploited and their interests are always secondary) Also, a lack of self-determination doesn't decrease nationality. The sub-nation isn't subsumed and elevated to just part of the big one like everyone else. Attempts to do that are called nation-building
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Jun 9, 2018 06:26
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By the way what Israel is doing is considered illegal by the UN, yet the UN also supports self-determination as a human right in its charter, so keep that in mind when I tell you that you're not using the correct definition
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Jun 9, 2018 06:27
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yeah thats just 'cause the UN was founded by terminal libs who wanted to use it to rip apart the Soviet Union.Jeb! Repetition posted:Self-determination is nationalism specifically when it's anti-colonialist and anti-imperialist. It is a good thing Idk dude, I've seen people post on this forum about getting universal health care in the US. All socialist thought is meaningless unless it can be enforced universally across the globe, that means we burn flags and churches, dig up holy men, until their memory is extinguished. That ain't abstract, it's an achievable goal.
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Jun 9, 2018 06:40
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HorrificExistence posted:
Yeah, no. But good luck with that.
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Jun 9, 2018 06:42
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HorrificExistence posted:yeah thats just 'cause the UN was founded by terminal libs who wanted to use it to rip apart the Soviet Union. SMH at terminal libs like Marx and Lenin who think "colonizing" is "bad" HorrificExistence posted:Idk dude, I've seen people post on this forum about getting universal health care in the US. All socialist thought is meaningless unless it can be enforced universally across the globe, that means we burn flags and churches, dig up holy men, until their memory is extinguished. That ain't abstract, it's an achievable goal. Universal health care in the US would be a good thing you useless might-as-well-be-a-libertarian posadist son of a bitch
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Jun 9, 2018 06:43
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MMm I love being mad
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Jun 9, 2018 06:43
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ah yeah marx, whom loved nationalism
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Jun 9, 2018 06:45
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:ah yeah marx, whom loved nationalism Marx supported self-determination as a "prior condition" to socialism because, as I've been trying to say, it is superior to imperialism, and international association and cooperation should be voluntary and not vainly attempted to be forced like you're a GOTdam neocon
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Jun 9, 2018 06:48
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Forcing internationalism worked pretty well for Tito, and Yugoslavia fell apart after his death because the republics took that opportunity to seize more autonomy and allowed chauvinistic nationalism to reappear.
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Jun 9, 2018 08:13
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My lukewarm take is that it's regrettable that instances of national sovereignty being respected, and being not-respected, are only ever consistent with imperialist goals. Countries are seemingly never prosecuted for capital flight and international finance as a theft of domestic wealth, but then countries are also invaded and intervened against when it suits the needs of the elites.
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Jun 9, 2018 08:23
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gradenko_2000 posted:My lukewarm take is that it's regrettable that instances of national sovereignty being respected, and being not-respected, are only ever consistent with imperialist goals. almost like its just a bourgeois tool to divide the international working class along arbitrary boundaries and is discarded when not useful
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Jun 9, 2018 08:38
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:almost like its just a bourgeois tool to divide the international working class along arbitrary boundaries and is discarded when not useful It largely is. But you don't fight it by enabling reactionary religious nutjobs. Which is what the cuck horrificexistense wants.
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Jun 9, 2018 09:11
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The larger liberal/leftist response to different nationalism is contradictory. Brexit = bad Catalonian independence = good?
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Jun 9, 2018 12:30
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i was relatively supportive of catalan independence not really because i want to support nationalism, but the spanish state's insane fascist overreaction by its right wing government. also catalan independence would likely lead to a chain reaction of instability and independence movements in the first world
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Jun 9, 2018 12:41
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:i was relatively supportive of catalan independence not really because i want to support nationalism, but the spanish state's insane fascist overreaction by its right wing government. also catalan independence would likely lead to a chain reaction of instability and independence movements in the first world this is some prolix bullshit and ya know it ya cuck lol if you probate me for pointing out the cuck has no clothes ya cuck (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 9, 2018 12:46
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White Rock posted:The larger liberal/leftist response to different nationalism is contradictory. I mean, the reason a lot of Russian marxists support nationalism in the early 20th century was to destroy the Russian Empire, not really for ideological reasons.
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Jun 9, 2018 15:08
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Forcing internationalism worked pretty well for Tito, and Yugoslavia fell apart after his death because the republics took that opportunity to seize more autonomy and allowed chauvinistic nationalism to reappear. But think of the poor slovenes! They were oppressed because they didn't have their own flag!
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Jun 9, 2018 15:11
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I think you have to be careful when dismissing national/cultural concerns because otherwise the logical endpoint might be that russification was cool and justified.
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Jun 9, 2018 15:38
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HorrificExistence posted:But think of the poor slovenes! They were oppressed because they didn't have their own flag! https://youtu.be/bwDrHqNZ9lo
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Jun 9, 2018 15:41
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HorrificExistence posted:Idk, man, they both claim to infringe on one another's right to exist. Guess we just have to respect sovereignty on this one. Israel is a great example of your beloved self-determination in action, they want a community just for themselves based on some historic claim to the land and surprise, surprise, they end up becoming crazy ethnonationalists. self-determination is when the people who live there form their own government, not when a minority group with foreign funding genocides the majority and then claims the right to rule the survivors you dumbass
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Jun 9, 2018 23:29
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Main Paineframe posted:self-determination is when the people who live there form their own government, not when a minority group with foreign funding genocides the majority and then claims the right to rule the survivors never has been a case of genuine self determination then
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Jun 9, 2018 23:40
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White Rock posted:liberal/leftist hmm i wonder why you end up with all those contradictions
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Jun 9, 2018 23:50
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White Rock posted:The larger liberal/leftist response to different nationalism is contradictory. wow it's almost like catalonia is historically leftist and oppressed while britain is, uh, not
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Jun 9, 2018 23:53
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White Rock posted:I think you have to be careful when dismissing national/cultural concerns because otherwise the logical endpoint might be that russification was cool and justified. The logical endpoint is that any imperial project whatsoever is cool and justified because it could, in theory, erase the national identity of the conquered even though that hasn't happened since like 1800 Jazerus posted:wow it's almost like catalonia is historically leftist and oppressed while britain is, uh, not The hilarious thing about Brexit was that Britain was the least oppressed of any EU member because they got to keep their own currency, so they never could have had austerity forced on them like Greece
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Jun 10, 2018 01:15
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workers of the world divide into ethnostates and fight each other for your flag!
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Jun 10, 2018 05:24
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HorrificExistence posted:theoretically, what is the argument used to deny it? -Was natural and unintentional -Kulaks did it, not the Soviet state -Was just Nazi propaganda Pick one through four of the above and defend it in the face of all opposition. Double down and accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being an imperialist or kulak when they disagree or point out the fact that you're making multiple contradictory arguments.
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Jun 10, 2018 06:45
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Remember that supporting kurds defense of their homeland now is like supporting AQ according to libs.
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Jun 12, 2018 02:11
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The Gulf Coalition launched the offensive they've been telegraphing on Hodeidah for weeks today, and they're making progress but are getting more trouble than they expected. https://twitter.com/WallStTrading/status/1006758169022992384 https://twitter.com/brecht_jonkers/status/1006783718973952000 https://twitter.com/aalsallam/status/1006805120506621952 https://twitter.com/aalsallam/status/1006997075307921408
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Jun 14, 2018 00:40
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So when they say a barge, what exactly am I supposed to be imagining?
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Jun 14, 2018 00:47
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steinrokkan posted:So when they say a barge, what exactly am I supposed to be imagining? im imagining 100 colombian mercenaries drowning while three fat bearded guys with red keffiyehs speed off in the only lifeboat
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Jun 14, 2018 00:56
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they use barges as a cost effective way to transport troops and materiel. literal barges
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Jun 14, 2018 00:59
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quote:This is #Saudi the land of braves men whatever it cost we will do what we say. lol okay
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Jun 14, 2018 01:07
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HorrificExistence posted:workers of the world divide into ethnostates and fight each other for your flag! The point is that the world is already divided into nationalities and self-determination doesn't create divisions that didn't already exist, it just keeps some of those nationalities from having imperial power over others
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Jun 14, 2018 01:25
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Jeb! Repetition posted:The point is that the world is already divided into nationalities and self-determination doesn't create divisions that didn't already exist, it just keeps some of those nationalities from having imperial power over others Yes it does, and no it doesn't. You can self-determine your way into being a willing subject of imperialism, and if you don't then those kind of countries tend to become targets for regime change.
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Jun 14, 2018 01:26
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Jeb! Repetition posted:The point is that the world is already divided into nationalities and self-determination doesn't create divisions that didn't already exist, it just keeps some of those nationalities from having imperial power over others HorrificExistence is on the level of a libertarian going on about autonomous individuals and rational markets without concern for externalities
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Jun 14, 2018 01:27
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yeah bro i agree 100% that nation states need to be eliminated and we need international communism. too bad that doesn't apply at all to the situation we're discussing you loving dumb poo poo
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Jun 14, 2018 01:28
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