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How is Valor? I just read the F&F and it seems good.
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Jun 9, 2018 00:10
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Moriatti posted:How is Valor? I just read the F&F and it seems good. I'm running a game, and while the combat isn't bad, the non-combat options are really pretty lackluster. It seems to be a problem endemic to the genre Valor is trying to emulate; all the other shonen-style RPGs I've seen (Shonen Final Burst, Fight!, Panic at the Dojo, Burn Legend) all seem to really drop the ball on detailed systems outside of combat. It's not a gamebreaker, it just means you have to go into it knowing the fights are all that really matter here, and everything else is just window dressing on the way to the next fight.
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Jun 9, 2018 01:26
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As soon as Valor bookmarks its core book PDF I will buy it and run it at the next opportunity. I am all about "D&D 4E but with modular, player-defined abilities" but not without navigation tools for quick reference.
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Jun 9, 2018 01:32
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Tsilkani posted:I'm running a game, and while the combat isn't bad, the non-combat options are really pretty lackluster. It seems to be a problem endemic to the genre Valor is trying to emulate; all the other shonen-style RPGs I've seen (Shonen Final Burst, Fight!, Panic at the Dojo, Burn Legend) all seem to really drop the ball on detailed systems outside of combat. It's not a gamebreaker, it just means you have to go into it knowing the fights are all that really matter here, and everything else is just window dressing on the way to the next fight. As someone who's making an overpowered,exalted heartbreaker type game (not 100% shonen style, but definitely 'shonen-esque'), I'm actually a bit curious here...what sort of systems would be good for a game like this? Obviously if the theme of the game involves stuff like politicking, rulership or dominion management (such as Exalted or Godbound), it behooves you to have rules for things like taking over your kingdom, managing it and improving it. But when creating a more generic system it seems out of place. And while something that has basically no rules for anything other than massive quantities of violence (the recent Fatal and Friends review of Mythender springs to mind), once I get the basic rules for "here's a system for determining your non-combat skills/here's how you can overcome obstacles in ways other than punching them" in place, I do feel a little stumped on how to move beyond that. It probably doesn't help that I'm deliberately averting meta-currency, otherwise I'd probably look to games like FATE for inspiration as they have good emergent rules without getting bogged down into a full set of 'social combat' mechanics. But lacking that...I'm not sure what the best approach is to take.
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Jun 9, 2018 03:58
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oriongates posted:As someone who's making an overpowered,exalted heartbreaker type game (not 100% shonen style, but definitely 'shonen-esque'), I'm actually a bit curious here...what sort of systems would be good for a game like this? a) don't make a generic system. There are already lots of those and plenty of them work for Exalted-style stuff. Make a system where some subsystems (like domain management) can be ignored if the players want for sure, but settle on flavour and theme ahead of time and write mechanics that reinforce those things. The ideal is for people to go "if I want to run Exalted, but don't want to use Storyteller, the default game I would use is [your game]" and not "well, [your game] can do Exalted too." b) sit down and make a list of the types of things you absolutely must be able to do in Exalted, then figure out how you're going to design mechanics for all of those things. Don't start with designing mechanics with no clear idea of what you're trying to accomplish, it generally leads to poor mechanics-theme interplay. For me it would just be high-powered kung-fu battles and courtly intrigue, but for you it might include other things. c) anything with too much crunch is going to either stop your players from doing whatever high-flying wirefu they want, or be a nightmare tangle of over-complicated edge-case mechanics. On the other hand, you probably do want combat mechanics with some structure, because combat is going to happen reasonably frequently, so it should by itself be an engaging subsystem. So you want something that is light on the mechanical side, but not so light as to make it impossible to design subsystems that players can find engaging purely on the basis of their mechanics. FWIW, Fate currently does this big time (and you can easily use Tianxia as a basis for running Exalted in Fate), so you're going to have your work cut out for you if you want to do this. 
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Jun 9, 2018 |
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Jun 9, 2018 10:36
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Anyone know of a good site for finding the value of rare RPG stuff? I've been digging through my old boxes and uncovered a copy of the d20 conversion of Warlock of Firetop Mountain, which I can't find a price for online. (d20 Caverns of the Snow Witch is listed on Amazon for ~£40, for reference.) I figure there must be a collector out there somewhere who wants it, but I don't know how to put it in front of them.
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Jun 9, 2018 15:03
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Noble Knight Games is probably the biggest out of print retailer, check their price
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Jun 9, 2018 15:15
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Josef bugman posted:Will check those out. Thank you. If you're not sure, go grab yourself the Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Box set. Even if you're not intending to play a star wars game it will give you a good rundown on how the system operates and what kind of time/gameplay style the game mechanics encourage. kingcom fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Jun 9, 2018 |
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Jun 9, 2018 15:16
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Sure Fate can run exalted if you don’t mind that your crazy wuxia anime fighting is mechanically identical to every other form of conflict, except you describe things in a fancier way. Don’t run games in Fate if you want combat to be remotely interesting.
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Jun 9, 2018 15:21
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Actually I was thinking, mostly as just a thought experiment: how do you emulate something like Yu Yu Hakusho? Specifically the problem that, while all the characters are of reasonably similar power, fights tend to happen one on one, sequentially, while the other heroes basically commentate. Dragon Ball Z does this too. Is there a way to make commenting on someone else fighting while you wait your turn fun and mechanically interesting?
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Jun 9, 2018 15:30
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I just wouldn't do that. Those shows do it because it's easier to draw or animate a duel or a brawl, and arguably because focusing the narrative on just two characters is more interesting to watch. You don't have to worry about the former at all and even if the latter did apply, the trade-off (highlighting one player for an entire combat while the rest sit around) isn't worth it.
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Jun 9, 2018 15:40
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fool_of_sound posted:Sure Fate can run exalted if you don’t mind that your crazy wuxia anime fighting is mechanically identical to every other form of conflict, except you describe things in a fancier way. This only happens if you think Fate Core is a complete game instead of just a mechanical framework on which you're supposed to build a game. You should be designing subsystems for "crazy wuxia anime fighting" that are different from the ones you design for courtly intrigue or domain management or whatever else is important to the game.
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Jun 9, 2018 15:59
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if i'm going to do that anyways then why on earth do i want or need FATE
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Jun 9, 2018 16:01
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:if i'm going to do that anyways then why on earth do i want or need FATE Because building stuff from the ground up is way harder than having a good base for it?
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Jun 9, 2018 16:09
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Andrast posted:Because building stuff from the ground up is way harder than having a good base for it?
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Jun 9, 2018 16:14
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I've written my own module for Fate and it worked decently, but it definitely was not combat focused. The problem is, you can only get so mechanically intensive on top of Fate before the system either can't handle it, or you're not engaging the core system at all anymore.
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Jun 9, 2018 16:18
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fool_of_sound posted:Sure Fate can run exalted if you don’t mind that your crazy wuxia anime fighting is mechanically identical to every other form of conflict, except you describe things in a fancier way. hahahaahahahah This is equally true of Apocalypse World 1E and a number of other games. FATE only gets poo poo because its social conflicts have equal mechanical weight. FATE has flaws but "uninteresting conflicts" is not one of them.
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Jun 9, 2018 17:56
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Zurui posted:This is equally true of Apocalypse World 1E and a number of other games. Zurui posted:FATE has flaws but "uninteresting conflicts" is not one of them. fool of sound fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jun 9, 2018 |
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Jun 9, 2018 18:06
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:if i'm going to do that anyways then why on earth do i want or need FATE Because Exalted's mechanics suck and no one's written a better alternative. I mean, that's Fate's problem: it's a really solid base to build upon (if you're doing something where characters are "proactive, competent and dramatic"), but it's just a base and you have to actually work to build stuff on it, which means I only ever go to Fate for stuff where no one has designed a better system. Which is fine - that's what generic systems are for.
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Jun 9, 2018 19:12
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Exalted 3E is fine!!!
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Jun 9, 2018 19:23
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fool_of_sound posted:Actually I was thinking, mostly as just a thought experiment: how do you emulate something like Yu Yu Hakusho? Specifically the problem that, while all the characters are of reasonably similar power, fights tend to happen one on one, sequentially, while the other heroes basically commentate. Dragon Ball Z does this too. Maybe that World Wide Wrestling game?
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Jun 9, 2018 19:29
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WWW would be my suggestion, yes. In part because you are narrating the whole fight when you have narrative control, not merely one person's role in it. Your character might still be losing the fight (because it's a game about being part of a wrestling company, not just about being a wrestler) but the mechanic is designed to be about controlling how the pre-determined conclusion actually comes about. And the game offers you incentives to relinquish narrative control now and then so it's never just one person narrating an entire match.
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Jun 9, 2018 19:34
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Complaining about FATE is like complaining about bread. If no one has conceived of a better way to deliver some ingredients into my mouth, I'm probably going to put them on bread. Is everything great on bread? Of course not. But a surprising number of things are and the fact that bread alone can be bland doesn't make bread lovely. Edit: in this analogy FAE is a tortilla and PbtA is noodles.
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Jun 9, 2018 20:22
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Nobody here has said fate is lovely, guy. I said that you can't do interesting combat-focused games in it.
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Jun 9, 2018 20:25
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Lemon-Lime posted:a) don't make a generic system. There are already lots of those and plenty of them work for Exalted-style stuff. Make a system where some subsystems (like domain management) can be ignored if the players want for sure, but settle on flavour and theme ahead of time and write mechanics that reinforce those things. The ideal is for people to go "if I want to run Exalted, but don't want to use Storyteller, the default game I would use is [your game]" and not "well, [your game] can do Exalted too." Generic may not be the best term here. Let's call it...setting agnostic. Flavor and theme I've got, it's just those naturally deal with the main elements of the system (high power level, setting dials on realism and consequences of your actions, creating cool powers, etc). It's not a generic system in the vein of something like FATE, Savage Worlds or PDQ, it's more like how a super-hero system. Designed for a genre, but not a setting. quote:b) sit down and make a list of the types of things you absolutely must be able to do in Exalted, then figure out how you're going to design mechanics for all of those things. Don't start with designing mechanics with no clear idea of what you're trying to accomplish, it generally leads to poor mechanics-theme interplay. For me it would just be high-powered kung-fu battles and courtly intrigue, but for you it might include other things. Although the system did start life as just 'how can I make my own system I find palatable to play Exalted in" and it will still definitely get used for that (which will also involve me bolting on mechanics for things like social/cultural manipulation), the game itself (called Badass Kung Fu Demigods, for those what care) has moved into broader territory. My closest inspiration at this point is more something like Shards of the Exalted Dream, presenting a system as well as a variety of micro-settings that the system can run. Some examples of the micro-settings to show you what I mean: *After J-Day: Players take the role of angels who rebelled against god in defense of the unsaved humans left behind on judgement day. All about trying to salvage the human race as it descends into post-apocalyptic barbarism and fighting demonic invaders while trying not to Fall. *Neon Knights: Play as one of the knights of the round table who drank from the grail and were granted immortality and immense power. The world is similar to the WoD setting, with the knights serving as secret defenders of humanity against supernatural predators and threats. MIB meets Exalted meets Dresden Files. *Return of the Old Gods. Cyberpunk dystopian future ruled in secret by tyrannical AI. Suddenly gods of the age of myth begin reincarnating all over the place, screwing up everyone's plans. Zeus vs cyborgs. Trinity Wonder has a baby with Scion. *Sword-Lords of The Apocalypse: Post apocalyptic remains of a final-fantasy-esque technomagic world. Players have been bonded with one of the World Breaker Swords, ancient superweapons capable of destroying the planet. Trigun meets Wild Arms So, the system is meant to handle all of these disparate settings, with minimal rules changes, and I think it does the job of that. Main thing is that the themes largely deal with the elephant in the room: the sheer amount of power available to a PC. They're about the consequences (or lack of consequences) that come along with the power levels PCs are capable of. But, that's mostly stuff that's combat, or combat adjacent and I do admit that I worry about stuff that sits firmly in the non-combat camp. As of right now, it's not much more sophisticated than "here are your non-combat traits and what to roll when you want to use them. The GM assigns a TN to beat on your roll". And, ultimately that does work...in fact, I know some people prefer that. But I'm curious about what people might want from this sort of game that isn't met by that, and isn't based on a particular setting. quote:c) anything with too much crunch is going to either stop your players from doing whatever high-flying wirefu they want, or be a nightmare tangle of over-complicated edge-case mechanics. On the other hand, you probably do want combat mechanics with some structure, because combat is going to happen reasonably frequently, so it should by itself be an engaging subsystem. I am (hopefully), good here. quote:FWIW, Fate currently does this big time (and you can easily use Tianxia as a basis for running Exalted in Fate), so you're going to have your work cut out for you if you want to do this. Speaking personally, I'm a big FATE fan, but I feel like it does a horrible job at something like Exalted. That's not because of the mechanics themselves (for example, I'd say FATE could do Scion fine, even high-ranked Scion), but because of the philosophy behind them. I admit that for games like Exalted I like the lack of meta-currency, because I like the idea that a character's success isn't narratively ordained, but rather something they can force on the world with pure strength. They don't succeed because they are the main character, they succeed because they are the very best (no one ever was). But, as I said, that's more of a personal/philosophical disconnect than anything against FATE in particular.
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Jun 9, 2018 21:03
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Does anyone have any advice for writing intrigue. I can do descriptions of combat pretty well, but I generally have some difficulty coming up with more complex plots and believable motivations for villains.
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Jun 9, 2018 23:49
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fool_of_sound posted:Actually I was thinking, mostly as just a thought experiment: how do you emulate something like Yu Yu Hakusho? Specifically the problem that, while all the characters are of reasonably similar power, fights tend to happen one on one, sequentially, while the other heroes basically commentate. Dragon Ball Z does this too. TBZ has rules for scenes where not every PC is present that might be worth cribbing (the GM can have people hand out metacurrency, or play NPCs, or so forth).
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Jun 10, 2018 00:06
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Josef bugman posted:Does anyone have any advice for writing intrigue. I can do descriptions of combat pretty well, but I generally have some difficulty coming up with more complex plots and believable motivations for villains. Generally speaking, the best way to create intrigue is to put several characters in play that are at cross purposes. Figure out basic motivations and goals for a handful of npcs, preferably characters with some clout, and then make sure the players are caught in the crossfire. Preferably you have an idea of how things would play out without outside interference, and allow the players to disrupt that in various ways. Here's a very basic example: the princess is kidnapped. The king wants her rescued, the prince doesn't because he wants the crown, but he can't come out and say that in front of his dad. The vizir is behind everything and plans on killing the king AND the prince in due time. The court mage knows the prince is ambitious and thinks he did it, but is afraid of outright telling the king. Now imagine the party is in the same room with all these characters. What would they say to try to influence the party to act in one way or another? What would they say to the party in private? Which ones would lie, and which ones would mislead? How would they react to being called out?
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Jun 10, 2018 02:42
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Lemon-Lime posted:Because Exalted's mechanics suck and no one's written a better alternative. Uhm, what about Godbound, you miserable tard?  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 10, 2018 05:57
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I can't be the only one who likes Exalted 3e on this forum, can I? I mean, I guess I can. Kind of lonely, though.
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Jun 10, 2018 06:19
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Plutonis is, like, right there
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Jun 10, 2018 06:25
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Joe Slowboat posted:I can't be the only one who likes Exalted 3e on this forum, can I? I like it well enough! EX3 has a pretty good core system that's buried under a bunch of fiddly horseshit in the Charms chapter. And Eric knocked the setting chapter out of the park. I'd never actually play Exalted-as-a-whole again, and if I were to tinker with it for another game I'd throw the Charms directly into the garbage disposal. But I still like it. 
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Jun 10, 2018 06:45
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Xarbala posted:Plutonis is, like, right there ...I'm pretty sure Plutonis was being sarcastic? That's a lot of exclamation points for sincerity.
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Jun 10, 2018 07:50
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Plutonis isn't being ironic, I am 99% sure he sincerely likes Exalted 3e. I also like Exalted 3e, but it's been a long time since I read the PDF and I've never played in a game of it so I guess I can't be all that enthused about it
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Jun 10, 2018 07:57
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EX3's good, even if its main virtue is only that its no longer a system you merely tolerate for the sake of the setting and premise.
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Jun 10, 2018 11:32
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Ex3e has a collection of interesting subsystems and a craft system, each of which would probably be a reasonable game on it's own and together are a ridiculously skill-intensive mess. 2nd ed managed to hide the fact Exalted's scope is too broad for the depth of mechanical density it wants to have by having only combat sort of work, and thus basically ending up a GM fiat game. 3e actually tried to make it work, and thus is a mess.
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Jun 10, 2018 11:33
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spectralent posted:Ex3e has a collection of interesting subsystems and a craft system, each of which would probably be a reasonable game on it's own and together are a ridiculously skill-intensive mess. 2nd ed managed to hide the fact Exalted's scope is too broad for the depth of mechanical density it wants to have by having only combat sort of work, and thus basically ending up a GM fiat game. 3e actually tried to make it work, and thus is a mess. Aside from Craft, which is more of a love it or hate it deal with no real middle ground, there really is nothing in 3E that isn't an explicit improvement from 2E or 1E systems wise. For all the complaints that tracking Initiative requires book-keeping, I'll still take it because I no longer need to keep track of ticks.
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Jun 10, 2018 11:35
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Bedlamdan posted:there really is nothing in 3E that isn't an explicit improvement from 2E or 1E systems wise. How to adjudicate Stunts is less clear than in 1e.
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Jun 10, 2018 11:58
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Joe Slowboat posted:...I'm pretty sure Plutonis was being sarcastic? That's a lot of exclamation points for sincerity. I am in a game actually and played almost a dozen of them.
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Jun 10, 2018 12:01
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I mean it would be almost impossible to create a system less functional than exalted 2e and have it remain technically playable, but 3e combat is fairly well designed and strategic, if slowed by crunchiness. 3xalted’s cardinal sin is that it has waaaay too many charms that only improve your numbers, instead of adding new capabilities. Excellencies already exist! Like fully a third of then could probably have been cut to no meaningful loss. Nevertheless, it’s mostly functional and the combat successfully emulates wuxia flow. People who say the system sucks usually are just the kind of people who are too lazy for any real crunch. It’s why some posters sing the praises of Dungeon World when in fact it’s only slightly better than 5e. fool of sound fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Jun 10, 2018 |
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Jun 10, 2018 14:58
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