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Radish posted:I'd start to be nervous if I was a Star Wars or TGoT player though. This is two licences they've suddenly lost resulting in stuff being totally left in the wind. Forbidden Stars had an expansion in the works and they had JUST revamped Dark Heresy role play and now they lost Netrunner right after 2.0. It's pretty clear that any licensed product can be lost without any warning at all. L5R might be the best bet. Yeah I'm seriously hesitant to buy any of their licensed products that have any sort of long-term investment involved, and I say this as someone with multiples of almost every X-Wing expansion and a bunch of Armada and Legion. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice...
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Jun 11, 2018 15:59
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Devlan Mud posted:Yeah I'm seriously hesitant to buy any of their licensed products that have any sort of long-term investment involved, and I say this as someone with multiples of almost every X-Wing expansion and a bunch of Armada and Legion. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice... Yeah. I've gone in pretty heavy into Arkham Horror for the reasons I mention on the last page. Namely I can play with friends using stuff I've bought myself and don't have to have them learn complicated metas and know all the cards that could possibly played in order to have fun. The worry that a licenced property could just randomly be unsupported with no warning has not been ignored though. Despite supposedly being an inexpensive alternative to the TCG format, LCGs are very expensive and the promise of future support is very important. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Jun 11, 2018 |
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Jun 11, 2018 16:07
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Radish posted:Didn't they run into issues with executives stealing money from the company though? Yeah, their CFO was embezzling. From what I head their other execs were putting up houses as collateral, they had loans for millions to renew the license but were basically told there was no amount of money they could come up with that would get the license extended. LucasFilm and Hasbro wanted it all brought in house with WotC.
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Jun 11, 2018 16:09
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Disney licenses their side properties for all kinds of poo poo these days. FFG clearly doesn't have exclusive rights to Star Wars board/card games either so that's not an issue. Decipher lost the rights because WotC had Magic in full swing at that point and was riding high on Pokemon as well so it was almost a no brainer to yank the Star Wars IP and shift it to them. Not that this was the worst thing in the world because LucasFilm had been wanting Decipher to make stuff for the prequel trilogy and it sucked almost as bad as that trilogy did.
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Jun 11, 2018 16:15
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It feels like these big licenses are very good for profits, but those profits need to be used to develop your own brand of stuff in case of things like this. Losing Warhammer I think shook FFG a bit since now they are basically transitioning the Runebound properties into whatever space Warhammer Fantasy used to be. There was probably already some plans for that but I think they realized the writing was on the wall way earlier than they made public. Just resting on money that could be lost based on the whims of people way outside your control seems like it's a bad idea and FFG had a lot of licenced deals a few years ago. With the push to promote the Runebound universe as their generic fantasy setting and an RPG ruleset that is supposed to be good for everything based on their Starwars RPG (which grew out of their Warhammer Fantasy game) they probably are well aware of that.
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Jun 11, 2018 16:17
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Ugh I forgot about the embezzling. But yeah, I kind of hope between Genesys and some of their other IP they could weather the storm of losing Star Wars.
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Jun 11, 2018 16:34
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The Android universe is pretty good. It's a ridiculous mix of Blade Runner, Minority Report, Aliens/Predator, Shadow Run, and probably a bunch of other dystopian sci-fi settings I am forgetting but it works. It also has just enough self awareness to have fun with it while not getting so goofy it loses all seriousness. It's a good basis for a bunch of games and I'm hoping they aren't wrong when they say there's a future for Android without the Netrunner name attached. Losing Games Workshop I think was a big deal since it left them with Star Wars as their only non-Earth based sci-fi setting. If they lose that they don't have something that immediately fits in like Runebound did for Warhammer Fantasy and don't own the fundemental property like with Android. I'm personally thinking they might eventually start pushing Twilight Imperium as their 40k replacement (maybe a Forbidden Stars reskin with those races) but I don't know enough about that property to know how likely that is. Having Star Wars probably allowed them a lot of room in that market but they probably want some sort of backup.
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Jun 11, 2018 16:43
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Radish posted:The Android universe is pretty good. It's a ridiculous mix of Blade Runner, Minority Report, Aliens/Predator, Shadow Run, and probably a bunch of other dystopian sci-fi settings I am forgetting but it works. It also has just enough self awareness to have fun with it while not getting so goofy it loses all seriousness. It's a good basis for a bunch of games and I'm hoping they aren't wrong when they say there's a future for Android without the Netrunner name attached. There is literally no worthwhile product in the entire franchise outside of the LCG.
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Jun 11, 2018 16:56
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Yeah, they have certainly accrued a lot of lore for Twilight Imperium, and the 4th edition has tons of lore stuff... that no one I've played TI with has ever bothered to read. I also kind of get the sense that Rex got a lukewarm response as well either because of or despite the TI theming, I'm not sure which. I dunno, they could release a TI setting for Genesys and it would probably be a lot of fun, but I don't think it would attract the same level of interest as Edge of the Empire has, and I just don't see TI as being a thing that could keep itself afloat as an RPG. I just don't know that people are getting excited about Runebound or TI. And yes, I agree Android is a very cool universe and setting.
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Jun 11, 2018 16:57
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Lichtenstein posted:There is literally no worthwhile product in the entire franchise outside of the LCG.  New Angeles owns.
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Jun 11, 2018 16:58
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Yeah New Angeles is awesome and our group love it.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:01
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The Deleter posted:
Eh, it felt very half-developed for me. It has some great ideas, like the rival system or the core 'vote for actions' mechanic, but in practice it doesn't really sing. Like, most of the asset cards are boring, useless trash that make the 'bribe cards' (offering personal benefits rather than advancing the board state) mostly useless, some corps can get simply hosed by the random seeding and I think the one-shot powers were also somewhat unbalanced? I feel it could neither match the negotiation excitement of games like John Company, COIN series, or even the good, old-fashioned Diplomacy or Imperial. Or even some lightweight offerings, like Intrigue. I do hope we'll see some spiritual sequel to it though, like Forbidden Stars was to Starcraft.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:09
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New Angeles is cool and I liked the book that was very obviously hinting at an Android themed Genesys source book. The original Android board game I think would be ok if it was a PC game, another app based thing, or something like that since part of what holds it back (other than a million different systems stuffed into one game) is all the minor book keeping. Infiltration does kinda suck I agree. Mansions on Madness was a game that had some great ideas but was held back by the reality it was a board game covered in a ton of cards and just too hamstrung by that. 2nd edition however is really, really fun so I think they could revisit Android and make it playable. But yeah I like the setting even if the games they've used it for have been lack-luster. Finster Dexter posted:Yeah, they have certainly accrued a lot of lore for Twilight Imperium, and the 4th edition has tons of lore stuff... that no one I've played TI with has ever bothered to read. I also kind of get the sense that Rex got a lukewarm response as well either because of or despite the TI theming, I'm not sure which. I dunno, they could release a TI setting for Genesys and it would probably be a lot of fun, but I don't think it would attract the same level of interest as Edge of the Empire has, and I just don't see TI as being a thing that could keep itself afloat as an RPG. I just don't know that people are getting excited about Runebound or TI. And yes, I agree Android is a very cool universe and setting. All I really know about the actual TI game is that it's from the age of FFG where all of their games took like eight hours to finish and by the end you were exhausted, half the players were mathematically eliminated (or useless in regards to coop stuff) and had no reason to maintain interest, and the finish was anticlimactic. I know a lot of my gaming friends are kind of done with that sort of game as we've gotten older and gravitate towards stuff that can be finished in 2-3 hours. TI might not be that type of game put from people I've known it has the impression it is which may have hurt it when overall it feels like quicker experiences are becoming more popular. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jun 11, 2018 |
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Jun 11, 2018 17:53
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Lichtenstein posted:Eh, it felt very half-developed for me. It has some great ideas, like the rival system or the core 'vote for actions' mechanic, but in practice it doesn't really sing. Like, most of the asset cards are boring, useless trash that make the 'bribe cards' (offering personal benefits rather than advancing the board state) mostly useless, some corps can get simply hosed by the random seeding and I think the one-shot powers were also somewhat unbalanced? new angeles is, at least, playable, unlike android
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Jun 11, 2018 18:07
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Finster Dexter posted:Yeah, they have certainly accrued a lot of lore for Twilight Imperium, and the 4th edition has tons of lore stuff... that no one I've played TI with has ever bothered to read. I also kind of get the sense that Rex got a lukewarm response as well either because of or despite the TI theming, I'm not sure which. I dunno, they could release a TI setting for Genesys and it would probably be a lot of fun, but I don't think it would attract the same level of interest as Edge of the Empire has, and I just don't see TI as being a thing that could keep itself afloat as an RPG. I just don't know that people are getting excited about Runebound or TI. And yes, I agree Android is a very cool universe and setting. It was because it was a remake of a game based on Dune and people who loved it were almost always a fan of the source material and that was the draw. We played it a couple times and as someone who didn't really like Dune (the game) or Dune (the books/movies) I was curious to try it but what it did was remind me that the game isn't very good at a fundamental level. Also just in case anyone gets any ideas about the "other" Android game, Infiltration is terrible. It's so bad I can't even get rid of the game for $10. It has some of the most fundamentally bad mechanics I've ever seen in a game and as someone who typically forgives push you luck games; this one is so bad. On the topic of rethemeing, I'd love to see them redo Conquest with the TI races.
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Jun 11, 2018 18:21
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PaybackJack posted:It was because it was a remake of a game based on Dune and people who loved it were almost always a fan of the source material and that was the draw. We played it a couple times and as someone who didn't really like Dune (the game) or Dune (the books/movies) I was curious to try it but what it did was remind me that the game isn't very good at a fundamental level. Yeah I can't give Infiltration away after giving up trying to sell it for $10. It's just really not good. The best thing about it is the box art looks like they are playing futuristic bowling at a cyber alley.  "Look dude trying to close out the last game and start a new one is way more complicated than it looks" Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jun 11, 2018 |
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Jun 11, 2018 19:59
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If they retooled Battlestar Galactica to the Android universe, that would get my attention.
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Jun 11, 2018 20:01
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Gonna buy me the rest of the Kitara Cycle today. I have a feeling that the remaining datapacks might be snatched up, and I'll want to keep playing Netrunner with the community here for at least a couple more years.
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Jun 11, 2018 22:16
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Hannibal Rex posted:If they retooled Battlestar Galactica to the Android universe, that would get my attention.
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Jun 11, 2018 22:19
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Let me tell you about Dark Moon...
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Jun 12, 2018 01:23
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So what does WotC own exactly? The name netrunner? the concept? Can you just repackage the stuff without the NR logo? I dont really know what Android is or how its different. someone fill me in.
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Jun 12, 2018 03:28
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banned from Starbucks posted:So what does WotC own exactly? The name netrunner? the concept? Can you just repackage the stuff without the NR logo? I dont really know what Android is or how its different. someone fill me in. 'Android' is just the setting (and a garbage game). WOTC technically owns the brand "Netrunner." Theoretically FFG could re-release with the same mechanics but a different name but a) they'd have to rerelease everything so they didn't have any of the old terminology b) they'd probably have to fight it in court and while theoretically you can't copyright mechanics it'd be messy c) they'd probably burn a bunch of bridges in the process
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Jun 12, 2018 03:32
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Android is the lore IP that is owned by Fantasy Flight Games. So Android/New Angeles/Mainframe/World of Android/The Android Genesys RPG are all safe from this and FFG can continue to publish them at their leisure, as they continue to own the license for it. The name and brand of Netrunner are owned by Wizards of the Coast and were licensed out to Fantasy Flight, which FFG implemented into their Android Universe. FFG cannot just file the serial numbers off and sell !Netrunner, as that would embroil them in a copyright lawsuit faster than you can say megacorporation. And Wotc/Hasbro has a fuckton more money than Asmodee does, and any lawsuit that would be served would hurt Asmodee far more than Hasbro. berenzen fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 03:38
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Minrad posted:conquest's fan scene was insane after its cancellation. they're STILL making content for it, and you can even buy it as actual physical product: http://apoka.mozello.com How are they not getting violently and repeatedly sued by GW? Too small fish to fry? Because I've never heard of GW letting literally anything go, ever. berenzen posted:FFG cannot just file the serial numbers off and sell !Netrunner "Notrunner" SuperKlaus fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 03:50
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Ringsprinter.
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Jun 12, 2018 04:31
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New Angeles is great, and a fitting evolution on the Battlestar formula, but it could have been *stellar*, and was merely 'quite good'. I mean, in a vacuum, or ignoring the board game renaissance of the last few years, it's just amazing. It's only because the alternatives have gotten so much stronger...
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Jun 12, 2018 04:43
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They will probably announce a new Android LCG within the next year and a half that takes the Netrunner design and streamlines it, removes the specific verbiage and shifts the scope to "street dudes versus big powerful entities" rather than exclusively hackers and corps, and adds a coop mode or a multiplayer mode like their recent LCGs have been doing. They'll keep the asymmetry and hidden information but pare down things like the timing structure of turns, change one or two major identifying things like the scoring conditions, and bolt on at least one significant new mechanic to further differentiate it (the way the faction system separated ANR from old NR). But to their target audience it will be recognizably Netrunner, just more accessible and legally distinct from.
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Jun 12, 2018 08:09
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They should mąkę a reverb netrunner about megacorps on a manhunt for a hacker.
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Jun 12, 2018 08:12
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Radish posted:All I really know about the actual TI game is that it's from the age of FFG where all of their games took like eight hours to finish and by the end you were exhausted, half the players were mathematically eliminated (or useless in regards to coop stuff) and had no reason to maintain interest, and the finish was anticlimactic. I know a lot of my gaming friends are kind of done with that sort of game as we've gotten older and gravitate towards stuff that can be finished in 2-3 hours. TI might not be that type of game put from people I've known it has the impression it is which may have hurt it when overall it feels like quicker experiences are becoming more popular. Well, it's on the 4th edition now and now of the things you cite are actual problems with the game anymore, imho. Like, you have to play REALLY badly to be eliminated, and most of the sessions I've done with 4e have ended with 4-5 out of 6 players being within 1-2 VP of each other at the end. PaybackJack posted:It was because it was a remake of a game based on Dune and people who loved it were almost always a fan of the source material and that was the draw. We played it a couple times and as someone who didn't really like Dune (the game) or Dune (the books/movies) I was curious to try it but what it did was remind me that the game isn't very good at a fundamental level. Dune is a really well designed game, imho, but only if you play with the correct ruleset. You didn't play with all of the advanced rules, did you? You have to do Basic + Optional and then 1 or 2 of the advanced rules (or maybe even 0 depending on what you want). StashAugustine posted:'Android' is just the setting (and a garbage game). WOTC technically owns the brand "Netrunner." Theoretically FFG could re-release with the same mechanics but a different name but a) they'd have to rerelease everything so they didn't have any of the old terminology b) they'd probably have to fight it in court and while theoretically you can't copyright mechanics it'd be messy c) they'd probably burn a bunch of bridges in the process Does WotC also own the game mechanics? Is that a thing that can even be copyrighted? I don't really know.
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Jun 12, 2018 14:41
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Finster Dexter posted:Does WotC also own the game mechanics? Is that a thing that can even be copyrighted? I don't really know. You can only really copyright game terminology and symbols. It's one of the reasons Magic is the only card game that uses the term "tap."
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Jun 12, 2018 15:11
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So if I released a game called Tragic: The Garnering and copied the rules of MTG straight across but made sure not to use "mana" or "tap" or whatever, I'd be in the clear? So, FFG, in theory could release Cyberwalker that had the same ruleset, even used the same Android universe, but didn't use "trash" or whatever. Why didn't they do that from the beginning? What does licensing get them other than name recognition? Sorry if this sounds naive, just trying to understand.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:19
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Finster Dexter posted:Does WotC also own the game mechanics? Is that a thing that can even be copyrighted? I don't really know. I have no idea what version and rules set we were using for Dune because this was 7 years ago when my friend did that really nice looking print and play that popped up on BGG. Regarding game mechanics, a few year back some players completely reskinned a bunch of Magic cards based on an old April fool's joke they played on their website, reimagining the game as Space: The Convergence. It was a total fan project using unlicensed art from deviant art type places and they completely changed every keyword and mechanical reference (white was now lux, combat was now engagement, tap was now engaged, etc.). It was up all of a couple days before they got a message to take it down. You can still find it, but in low res versions and the project more or less died publically. If they wanted to remake Netrunner, they'd have to fundamentally change the game. It's a bit different than Decipher's Star Wars because they came up with the mechanics and had just lost the Star Wars theme while FFG was absolutely buying the mechanics because they reskinned the theme/setting to one they owned.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:20
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Finster Dexter posted:So if I released a game called Tragic: The Garnering and copied the rules of MTG straight across but made sure not to use "mana" or "tap" or whatever, I'd be in the clear? So, FFG, in theory could release Cyberwalker that had the same ruleset, even used the same Android universe, but didn't use "trash" or whatever. Why didn't they do that from the beginning? What does licensing get them other than name recognition? Sorry if this sounds naive, just trying to understand. The real reason is because there hasn't really been a clear cut court case between board game licenses like that in the past, so unless you're willing to spend a shitload of money on court fees against Wizards (who, before Asmodee picked up FFG, were much, much bigger and richer than FFG) to iron out the copyright law and decide how it will be done in the future, you play by the richest company's rules. Even then, it's almost certainly not going to be worth it to wage a huge court battle when you can just pay some licensing fee and be able to not worry about legal fees at all. After all, megacorps are out to make money moreso than they are to screw each other over. The best example of lawsuits you can look at previously would be when Wizards sued Cryptozoic for making Tragic the Garnering (except they named it Hex) and the weight of the lawsuit was big enough to steer a lot of people away from Hex for a good year or two, until they settled out of court for some indeterminate amount (but iirc it was in WotC's favor). I think Hex had a lot of momentum and a huge kickstarter before WotC put the boot to their neck, and I don't think they ever really recovered (minus having a small dedicated fanbase).
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Jun 12, 2018 16:03
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Dr. Video Games 0069 posted:They will probably announce a new Android LCG within the next year and a half that takes the Netrunner design and streamlines it, removes the specific verbiage and shifts the scope to "street dudes versus big powerful entities" rather than exclusively hackers and corps, and adds a coop mode or a multiplayer mode like their recent LCGs have been doing. They'll keep the asymmetry and hidden information but pare down things like the timing structure of turns, change one or two major identifying things like the scoring conditions, and bolt on at least one significant new mechanic to further differentiate it (the way the faction system separated ANR from old NR). But to their target audience it will be recognizably Netrunner, just more accessible and legally distinct from. This seems super over-optimistic to me, but I'll take it if it shakes out this way. I was thinking about it, and Netrunner has a hell of a fan community already - I mean a bunch of my decks use fan-made alts for a ton of cards. I don't think even the megacorps killing it will truly ETR.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:17
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Thanks that makes sense. What a bummer. Maybe FFG can come up with some other LCG/CCG that would work in Android. Maybe license Decipher's Wars game (lmao)
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Jun 12, 2018 16:17
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I think another LCG is likely, since FFG now has a ton of card designers and QA testers with nowhere to go (unless they want to merge into their other teams) but I wouldn't expect it to be Netrunner styled at all. While I'm not that interested in the digital adaptation of the LOTR LCG, I'm still interested in their digital division stepping up with some online only LCG afterward. Lord knows everyone plays on Jinteki already anyways 
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Jun 12, 2018 16:23
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The only way I get back into a LCG is if it's all digital. It's just too impossible to find people to play against if the game isn't Magic the Gathering and it's too expensive to get into for a very occasional game when the stars align or a store decides to do a tournament once a year. Also I don't think people would be that happy to buy into If they used this to basically remake the game without the Netrunner name digitally then I would be interested though.
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Jun 12, 2018 18:01
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Does WotC even plan on doing anything with the netrunner name? What's the point of just sitting on it and not making your licensing fee every year or whatever. There's like no overlap between NR and magic players in this area.
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Jun 12, 2018 18:33
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banned from Starbucks posted:Does WotC even plan on doing anything with the netrunner name? What's the point of just sitting on it and not making your licensing fee every year or whatever. There's like no overlap between NR and magic players in this area. As I’ve posted before, we have no idea who’s to blame for this. It’s very very possible that FFG just didn’t want to pay that licensing fee every year. Nerds are blaming WotC for this, but I actually suspect it's much more likely FFG is to blame.
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Jun 12, 2018 18:41
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CodfishCartographer posted:As I’ve posted before, we have no idea who’s to blame for this. It’s very very possible that FFG just didn’t want to pay that licensing fee every year. Nerds are blaming WotC for this, but I actually suspect it's much more likely FFG is to blame. Even with all the investment they did on developing and releasing Revised Core Set?
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Jun 12, 2018 19:29
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