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unwantedplatypus posted:Gold in old paradox was already just mana why do you people keep complaining about having new currencies Because gold and money are concrete things that exist in the real world, while administrative power and gravitas are not.
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Jun 11, 2018 16:59
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Fister Roboto posted:Because gold and money are concrete things that exist in the real world, while administrative power and gravitas are not. I always saw monarch points in EU4 as like, a representation of gathering the political will and human capital it takes to reform and make and enforce new laws. The things that gold doesn't really cover. That may be abstract, but it's a real consideration.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:04
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Fintilgin posted:Yeah, I'm 200% ok with monarch points. It's a clever little system. Monarch points are a fine abstraction, although EU4 definitely suffers from having too many points/bars/etc that are tied into specific siloed systems. I think it's legitimate to be concerned if Imperator starts off with too many points/bars to fill
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Jun 11, 2018 17:06
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Personally, I can't wait to complain about a significant lack of gravitas.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:08
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I think monarch points are perfectly acceptable abstractions of the time and effort necessary to draft laws or rules, push them through the administration/military hierarchy/diplomatic service and the necessary everyday wheeling and dealing to ensure they are applied. EU4 does suffer from having too many meters to fill up though.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:13
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ThisIsNoZaku posted:EU: Fantasy when When someone does the mod.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:30
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I think the issue with monarch points is also that it feels like they over-abstract things. Fortunately I feel like tech, coring and development not being concerns of MP basically fits with that; it always struck me as weird that your capital won't ever grow unless your king publicly decrees there's going to be more stuff produced here now, or how people discovering gunpowder (or whatever) relies on your king declaring it to be so. I guess maybe the latter could be conceived of as "this invention is adopted by the state", but still.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:43
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Kaza42 posted:Monarch points are a fine abstraction, although EU4 definitely suffers from having too many points/bars/etc that are tied into specific siloed systems. I think it's legitimate to be concerned if Imperator starts off with too many points/bars to fill Deltasquid posted:I think monarch points are perfectly acceptable abstractions of the time and effort necessary to draft laws or rules, push them through the administration/military hierarchy/diplomatic service and the necessary everyday wheeling and dealing to ensure they are applied. EU4 does suffer from having too many meters to fill up though. Yeah, monarch points alone are totally fine with me, EU4 just kinda went off-the-rails adding new currency/points systems in every DLC that only tie in to one system and are neglected in every future DLC. The game would probably be better if they took a more holistic approach to DLC content. But then that would make the game way more impenetrable to new players once it's a couple years old and has a dozen DLCs, so it probably doesn't make business sense. I dunno what the solution is to that.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:46
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The problem with MP is that it pretty much solely depends on the quality of the individual ruler, and this doesn't fit the entire EU4 time period - poo poo kings matter alot earlier on, but by the 1700s and constitutional monarchies it's stupid you are still wholly reliant on the quality of your king. It sounds like Imperator is going to have your government type matter aswell, at least when it comes to the ideas matching them or something, which should help in this issue (Personal skills matter more in the roman era anyways.)
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Jun 11, 2018 17:47
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True, there should have been more events/ways for development to happen on their own.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:47
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Prav posted:so is the game gonna be in latin pidgin? This would actually be pretty great. People complaining about Paradox games becoming too mainstream? Relase a game only in Latin and tell people who want to play it to learn Latin.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:51
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Fister Roboto posted:Because gold and money are concrete things that exist in the real world, while administrative power and gravitas are not. Gravitas and administrative capability of a state do exist in the real world. Human societies put a lot of stock in non-concrete things.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:52
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Nothingtoseehere posted:The problem with MP is that it pretty much solely depends on the quality of the individual ruler, and this doesn't fit the entire EU4 time period - poo poo kings matter alot earlier on, but by the 1700s and constitutional monarchies it's stupid you are still wholly reliant on the quality of your king. It sounds like Imperator is going to have your government type matter aswell, at least when it comes to the ideas matching them or something, which should help in this issue (Personal skills matter more in the roman era anyways.) Yeah I think part of why people dislike it is also the mechanical impact of getting a lovely heir. Your progress just grinds to a halt. Sure you can make up for it a little bit with advisors, but the monarch themselves has far and away the largest impact and advisors are very expensive. Compare to CK2 where your character's stats are important for their demense, but the power of your realm as a whole tends doesn't change a lot between characters.
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Jun 11, 2018 17:58
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when you abstract something as much as administrative monarch points i don't think calling them mana is really that unfair
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Jun 11, 2018 17:59
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I hope there's lots of formable tags. Want to create magna grecia and stomp down the perfidious latins.
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Jun 11, 2018 18:01
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It'd all be fine if we could spend MP to adjust sliders imo
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Jun 11, 2018 18:08
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i do miss the sliders
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Jun 11, 2018 18:14
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Just call it ruler time. Waking day has 16 hours, so you get 16 points a day, and you decide how many of those you spend yelling at whom and how many you spend waving at the crowds and how many you decide to spend giving huge dinners to whoever. Yelling at functionaries is admin, waving at crowds gives stability, and giving dinners is diplo. Depending on the dice rolls your ruler decides to spend half his day playing with toy soldiers and the other half drinking heavily with some cronies (+5 to corruption). That makes it feel a bit more immersive and could tie into a bit of a court life, as applicable. Spend two hours a day personally supervising that manufactory so the material doesn't get stolen, but then again you could probably stand to shore up the restive capital garrison's liking of you a bit. Whenever you feel like it you pause and reshuffle the schedule.
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Jun 11, 2018 18:29
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if they didn't want people calling it mana, why did they label it mp?
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Jun 11, 2018 18:29
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Prav posted:when you abstract something as much as administrative monarch points i don't think calling them mana is really that unfair There are concepts irl like "administrative capacity" when talking about nation building efforts so... It's not like Paradox invented it. EDIT: actually it would be funny if you could queue as many projects down the pipelines as you want up front and then you have to wait for your administration to push your reforms through the bottleneck of not enough time/personnel/money as you bleed monarch points Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Jun 11, 2018 |
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Jun 11, 2018 18:29
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unwantedplatypus posted:Gravitas and administrative capability of a state do exist in the real world. Human societies put a lot of stock in non-concrete things. Oh, OK. How many admin points does Angela Merkel generate each month, then? Precise numbers, please.
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Jun 11, 2018 18:31
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Please remember to factor in the maluses from coalition government and bonuses from vassal states as well Sorry, bonii and malii
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Jun 11, 2018 18:33
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Fister Roboto posted:Oh, OK. How many admin points does Angela Merkel generate each month, then? Precise numbers, please. 4 op, modified by the coalition unity bar introduced in the "Bring down that wall" dlc
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Jun 11, 2018 18:33
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how many attack points does an Abrams have, to three decimal places
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Jun 11, 2018 18:33
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What is Germany's forcelimit
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Jun 11, 2018 18:36
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StashAugustine posted:how many attack points does an Abrams have, to three decimal places 8 pips, but surprisingly low manevuer due to fuel ineffeciancy. I know the ui is obtuse but that parts pretty clear 
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Jun 11, 2018 18:37
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What’s the supply limit in northern afghanistan
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Jun 11, 2018 18:39
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It's a well known fact that Teddy Roosevelt invented the airplane by yelling at some nameless scientists a lot.
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Jun 11, 2018 18:40
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Fister Roboto posted:Oh, OK. How many admin points does Angela Merkel generate each month, then? Precise numbers, please. How much gold does a temple produce for the government in Germany?
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Jun 11, 2018 19:08
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Alchenar posted:I would be very happy with a system that ditched cores entirely in favour of 'how many citizens/freemen/serfs do you have here?' That's basically what Cores represent and there's an interesting opportunity to do something new and different here. Yeah this is one of those times where I literally just don't trust Johan to have learned from the failures of the past but here's hoping!
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Jun 11, 2018 19:16
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Fister Roboto posted:It's a well known fact that Teddy Roosevelt invented the airplane by yelling at some nameless scientists a lot. Wait are you telling me they’re making Victoria 3 and adding monarch points to it
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Jun 11, 2018 19:17
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Fister Roboto posted:It's a well known fact that Teddy Roosevelt invented the airplane by yelling at some nameless Edited to make this thread suddenly love the concept.
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Jun 11, 2018 19:18
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beep boop i am a computer i do not understand intangible abstractions generalized by a numeric value please assign values to intangible things so that i may run my humor applications at your expense Jesus christ, you loving goons. Use your goddamn imaginations.
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Jun 11, 2018 19:39
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ExtraNoise posted:
i don't have one and am constantly disappointed by the fact that paradox games are not hardcore simulations
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Jun 11, 2018 19:44
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Senor Dog posted:Wait are you telling me they’re making Victoria 3 and adding monarch points to it Yes, the most important stat will be industrialitiveness, which you can spend to build factroys.
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Jun 11, 2018 19:59
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The joking around of mapping of Paradox concepts onto modern day things just makes me want to have a modern-day Paradox game.  EDIT: Or any GSG, really, where you get to play as a political party, and a big part of the gameplay involves horse-trading to pass legislation and create a coalition, with each party involved in negotiation rounds spending political power points to get concessions, HOI4-style. Parties, the basic unit of play, would arise dynamically from pops -- if enough pops in a region share the same ideals, a political party would spontaneously arise. Parties would get Political Power from pops, events, and leaders, and spend them to increase their share of the population, craft legislation, do diplomacy, recruit and promote leaders, and so on. Kind of an even mix of HOI4 and EU4 with a V2 pop system. A man can dream... 
DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jun 11, 2018 |
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Jun 11, 2018 20:23
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unwantedplatypus posted:How much gold does a temple produce for the government in Germany? None, it lowers the stability cost. ExtraNoise posted:beep boop i am a computer i do not understand intangible abstractions generalized by a numeric value please assign values to intangible things so that i may run my humor applications at your expense The problem isn't abstracted concepts, the problem is having one resource that you for some reason spend on 5 entirely unrelated things. E: vvvvv Democracy 3 was pretty good but IIRC way too easy so you just spiralled into more and more GDP while funding everything you wanted. GrossMurpel fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jun 11, 2018 |
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Jun 11, 2018 21:33
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DrSunshine posted:EDIT: Or any GSG, really, where you get to play as a political party, and a big part of the gameplay involves horse-trading to pass legislation and create a coalition, with each party involved in negotiation rounds spending political power points to get concessions, HOI4-style. Parties, the basic unit of play, would arise dynamically from pops -- if enough pops in a region share the same ideals, a political party would spontaneously arise. Parties would get Political Power from pops, events, and leaders, and spend them to increase their share of the population, craft legislation, do diplomacy, recruit and promote leaders, and so on. Kind of an even mix of HOI4 and EU4 with a V2 pop system. I also want basically exactly this. The Democracy series didn't quite scratch the itch.
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Jun 11, 2018 21:34
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GrossMurpel posted:The problem isn't abstracted concepts, the problem is having one resource that you for some reason spend on 5 entirely unrelated things. I'm not exactly sure what you're thinking of with entirely unrelated things here, can you give an example?
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Jun 11, 2018 22:30
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A Buttery Pastry posted:As long as they're all related to the resource you've created... using for tech/policies/the-various-government-buttons makes sense but I guess mana for development doesn't, not really
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