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A Buttery Pastry posted:As long as they're all related to the resource you've created... Military power can be used for - burning a colony - harsh treatment - forced march - war taxes - recruiting a general - tech of course Sure they're all vaguely military things but by the same logic you could just have one kind of monarch power that does everything because it's all vaguely related to governing your nation. It's just abstractions thrown into widely different concepts because Paradox has adopted the stance that it's inherently fun to have many, many actions tied to the same three resources so you always have to make choices between different areas of managing your country. I disagree with that idea. I know I'm in the minority there, just thought I'd elaborate what exactly the problem is Fake edit: Gamerofthegame posted:using for tech/policies/the-various-government-buttons makes sense but I guess mana for development doesn't, not really Great point, I completely forgot about development, that makes everything about 3 times worse.
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# ? Jun 11, 2018 22:41 |
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# ? May 31, 2024 02:47 |
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DrSunshine posted:The joking around of mapping of Paradox concepts onto modern day things just makes me want to have a modern-day Paradox game. Well, there's the Geopolitical Simulator series which sorta lets you do that, with individual characters for the heads of various lobbies that you can call up at any time to interact with and other such details. It is beyond janky, though. Like a worse-coded Dwarf Fortress but for real life politics. I seem to recall the last time I messed with the game I mostly signed a bunch of trade deals as Canada that apparently made money from near nothing, got bored, played as Obama instead and spent most of my time trying to sleep with the wives of other heads of state, mostly because "Holy poo poo I can do that?"
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# ? Jun 11, 2018 22:50 |
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Tomn posted:Well, there's the Geopolitical Simulator series which sorta lets you do that, with individual characters for the heads of various lobbies that you can call up at any time to interact with and other such details. it's both hilariously janky and also Eurocentric as hell, to a level that edges into overt racism at times - the level of detail with which a country's internal politics are modeled seems to be based primarily on how white the country's population is; France has every single podunk extremist political party modeled, including a few which have no parliamentary representation, while there are African countries in the game that just have a couple of random made-up parties. sometimes it doesn't even get their political systems right - Angola, which in real life is a multiparty democracy, is simulated in game with the government type of 'totalitarian extreme left' ruled by a Marxist-Leninist vanguard party. also there is a secret global terrorist network in the game called 'Islamic Jihad' which is the biggest national security threat to every country everywhere, while most real-life domestic terror threats literally don't exist in the Geopolitical Simulator games also Native American militant groups (which only exist in Mexico ingame, lol) are not only called 'Indians' but use Indian names for all their leaders, as in, Indian-from-India names
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:03 |
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Mister Bates posted:it's both hilariously janky and also Eurocentric as hell, to a level that edges into overt racism at times - the level of detail with which a country's internal politics are modeled seems to be based primarily on how white the country's population is; France has every single podunk extremist political party modeled, including a few which have no parliamentary representation, while there are African countries in the game that just have a couple of random made-up parties. sometimes it doesn't even get their political systems right - Angola, which in real life is a multiparty democracy, is simulated in game with the government type of 'totalitarian extreme left' ruled by a Marxist-Leninist vanguard party. ahahahahahaha
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:06 |
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the ideal system is one where you spend money and allocate manpower to specific scientific or industrial fields, with no control of what you're going to get, just like in real life. but then you wind up with titanium horseshoes and no gunpowder, at which point you realize that 'mana' is the best way to go.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:12 |
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Are you suggesting that governments hurl money into a hole filled with researchers and whatever they get back, they settle for?
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:13 |
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Where's the lie
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:19 |
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Minenfeld! posted:Are you suggesting that governments hurl money into a hole filled with researchers and whatever they get back, they settle for? the internet was supposed to be the greatest tool ever invented, instead we got a dystopic panopticon that breeds nazis and cat memes sometimes poo poo just doesn't work out no matter how hard some muthafucka science'd it
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:24 |
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Mister Bates posted:it's both hilariously janky and also Eurocentric as hell, to a level that edges into overt racism at times - the level of detail with which a country's internal politics are modeled seems to be based primarily on how white the country's population is; France has every single podunk extremist political party modeled, including a few which have no parliamentary representation, while there are African countries in the game that just have a couple of random made-up parties. sometimes it doesn't even get their political systems right - Angola, which in real life is a multiparty democracy, is simulated in game with the government type of 'totalitarian extreme left' ruled by a Marxist-Leninist vanguard party. It just gets better and better, doesn't it?
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:40 |
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I would never advocate anyone actually spend any money on a Geopolitical Simulator game (the current one is Power and Revolution), but I made the mistake of doing so once, and I kind of want to run through it on here sometime just so others can share in my horror. They're awful games in basically every way. Everything about them is just deranged and illogical, like it was made by white-nationalist aliens from Venus. The data they use for their simulation seems to be mostly pulled directly from their asses, to the point that they'll get basic poo poo like national government types wrong (in addition to Angola, other nations which are run by Marxist-Leninists in the Geopolitical Simulator version of the present day include Afghanistan). The UI is atrocious and it's rarely clear what exactly you're doing or what effect it's having. The vast majority of the game consists of setting up meetings with various public figures - government ministers, leaders of parties and special interest groups, leaders of terrorist organizations, etc. - and in these meetings, which are all inexplicably voice-acted and have terrifying animated 3D talking heads jawing at you, you are presented a dialogue tree, in which the options for nearly every one are basically 'ask for support', 'ask for money', 'offer coffee', 'offer booze', 'compliment', and 'attempt to have sex with'. bizarrely, the game both requires extremely granular micro-management and grants you almost no control over things. as the leader of an underground movement or guerrilla organization, you have to control budgetary allocations down to individual dollars and cents to every branch of the organization, plan every event and action, set up meetings and build up your network yourself - but you can't decide where or when to establish camps, position your units, or do much of anything to directly control what the group is actually doing (until they start fighting for control of a city, at which point the game expects you to zoom in and control every individual unit in the street-fight yourself in a tacked-on RTS mode). As the leader of a political party, you can give your parliamentary representatives voting recommendations - but they'll just vote in line with your party's ideology no matter what your recommendation is, so it does literally nothing. If you recommend they vote against your party's ideology the game will yell at you, if you don't give them a recommendation at all the game will yell at you. You can't change your party platform, and if you make campaign promises that don't jive with your party's hardcoded platform the game yells at you, and doing that too much is actually a failure state for the game - which means there are certain countries where the player simply can't implement certain pieces of legislation, because there isn't a political party for every ideology in every country. it's also, as previously mentioned, pretty racist. European countries are depicted in excruciating detail (there's like a dozen playable parties in Ireland alone), African countries get jack poo poo. Muslims and the 'Chinese Mafia' are pervasive global threats while far-right militants literally don't exist. Left-wing groups have to petition for funding from a 'left-wing billionaire' character who is an obvious standin for George Soros. Native-American Indians and Indian-Subcontinent Indians get mixed up. It's Steppe Wolfe with a budget and a pricetag (one hell of a pricetag at that)
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 01:08 |
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Mister Bates posted:I would never advocate anyone actually spend any money on a Geopolitical Simulator game (the current one is Power and Revolution), but I made the mistake of doing so once, and I kind of want to run through it on here sometime just so others can share in my horror. You got any screenshots? It sounds like there is more comedy here.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 01:42 |
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Jazerus posted:because then they can feel human again by calling it "mana" dismissively and pretending that monarch points weren't a vast improvement on eu3's system I was about to comment how long it's been since the thread freaked out at people calling it mana, and how it might indicate we're looking at Paradox games in more detail than before
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 01:55 |
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Beamed posted:I was about to comment how long it's been since the thread freaked out at people calling it mana, and how it might indicate we're looking at Paradox games in more detail than before Referring to monarch power as mana is truly the height of game criticism
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 02:32 |
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Mana is actually a good thing! Like, can you imagine if Paradox had implemented things based on a Vancian spellcasting system? *shudders*
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 02:54 |
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with four types of mana it stands to reason that each will map to one of the classical elements. now virtus is obviously the fires of war, but anyone got any suggestions for the other three? note that i will fist fight you right here if you claim aether is a real element.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 03:04 |
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Prav posted:with four types of mana it stands to reason that each will map to one of the classical elements. now virtus is obviously the fires of war, but anyone got any suggestions for the other three? What other medium would light move through if it wasn't? Check AND mate.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 03:19 |
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Prav posted:with four types of mana it stands to reason that each will map to one of the classical elements. now virtus is obviously the fires of war, but anyone got any suggestions for the other three? Which one's wood.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 03:41 |
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modern games should only have two buttons, one with a carrot and the other a stick. you can put either the stick or the carrot in your bum, but not both.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 03:47 |
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GrossMurpel posted:Military power can be used for In terms of how MP is gained, I think someone else suggested that it shouldn't be as tied to the ruler in the later parts of the game, and I can definitely see that. Like, the state bureaucracy could be a thing that gets build up over time that increases the base MP gain, lessening the impact of the monarch - the growing MP pool would then also mean more abilities could be unlocked to use this power. GrossMurpel posted:Great point, I completely forgot about development, that makes everything about 3 times worse. Now, the way development itself is actually implemented, that's another matter. From my point of view, the fact that development is essentially static without intervention is terrible; the core of it should be a population growth system that's only indirectly tied to player actions* - with "development" being a question of how wealthy and ordered a province is, how strongly the province is tied to the power of the state and thus how easily its resources can be marshaled for use by the state. Sort of like autonomy I suppose, but more sticky - and autonomy here meaning proper autonomy, with some of the locals effectively being out of reach of state power. (As opposed to the delegated state power of estates.) Actually, autonomy could grow naturally out of population growth, meaning you actually have to integrate this growing population into the state - I believe historically China had some difficulty on this front, with its population exploding around the 17th century but the bureaucracy staying the exact same size, making it less able to actually use this larger population. *Every province has a population potential, which can change over time - some provinces might start out near their base potential, others could be sparsely populated and ready to grow. More wealth flowing into a region (like from being heavily trade based) increases population growth, stuff like that. Easily understood stuff, but not the rule going "Now kiss". Basically, I think the fact that a lot of the Middle East had basically a stagnant population over this period while for example England grew fivefold should have an ingame effect - even if player intervention should be able to affect the outcome for their own country. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jun 12, 2018 |
# ? Jun 12, 2018 06:28 |
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I just remembered that Vicky 2 had oppression mana, represented by a boot stamping on a human face - forever. I liked oppression mana.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 06:56 |
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Bold Robot posted:You got any screenshots? It sounds like there is more comedy here. I'm about 90% certain someone did an LP of this a couple months ago as JEB!
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 07:04 |
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Jack2142 posted:I'm about 90% certain someone did an LP of this a couple months ago as JEB! i need a link right now
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 07:08 |
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah I think part of why people dislike it is also the mechanical impact of getting a lovely heir. Your progress just grinds to a halt. Sure you can make up for it a little bit with advisors, but the monarch themselves has far and away the largest impact and advisors are very expensive. Compare to CK2 where your character's stats are important for their demense, but the power of your realm as a whole tends doesn't change a lot between characters. I have never played EU so I can't comment on that, but I think you are underestimating when your genius, gregarious, 20 diplomacy ruler is succeeded by the craven, arbitrary son who just picked up the kinslayer trait by getting caught murdering his father. The power of your realm can indeed crash impressively.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 07:32 |
Raskolnikov38 posted:i need a link right now Here you go.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 07:47 |
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I wonder how viable all those 2 pixel wide nations are to actually play as.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 07:50 |
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This sounds awesome. https://waypoint.vice.com/amp/en_us...impression=true quote:...
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 08:18 |
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Charlz Guybon posted:This sounds awesome. I'm sold... I mean I was already, but drat!
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 08:32 |
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I think my biggest beef with monarch points is that they're tied to the ruler, and there's nothing the player can really do to affect the ruler (and the heir). Sure you can mitigate it by throwing money at advisors, but just about everyone is rolling with advisors so you still wind up with less MPs. Someone mentioned having more base MP gain as the game progresses, reflecting more capable apparatus of state and more options as time goes on, and I think that'd really alleviate my annoyance with the system. As-is, it's the exact same consideration of opportunity cost at game start and game end, and I can't influence my resource gain at all which is really bad for something so critical. Something something vicky 2 blackbox economy.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 09:22 |
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Radio Free Kobold posted:I think my biggest beef with monarch points is that they're tied to the ruler, and there's nothing the player can really do to affect the ruler (and the heir). Sure you can mitigate it by throwing money at advisors, but just about everyone is rolling with advisors so you still wind up with less MPs. Someone mentioned having more base MP gain as the game progresses, reflecting more capable apparatus of state and more options as time goes on, and I think that'd really alleviate my annoyance with the system. As-is, it's the exact same consideration of opportunity cost at game start and game end, and I can't influence my resource gain at all which is really bad for something so critical. Something something vicky 2 blackbox economy. With a republic you should be able to choose who to support though. Maybe it doesn't always get you who you want in charge, but it's better than a random monarchy.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 09:33 |
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Kind of a shame that they switched over to a globe on the exact right game for a The-World-Is-Literally-Flat-On-Top-Of-A-Cube-Glorantha mod.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 09:40 |
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reignonyourparade posted:Kind of a shame that they switched over to a globe on the exact right game for a The-World-Is-Literally-Flat-On-Top-Of-A-Cube-Glorantha mod. what kind of map projection do we need for turtles-all-the-way-down
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 09:45 |
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Charlz Guybon posted:This sounds awesome.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 09:57 |
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Charlz Guybon posted:This sounds awesome. While this does sound neat, it also sounds like almost deliberately bad play.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 10:21 |
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Johan is bad at Paradox games. Have you ever seen the Dev clashes?
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 10:23 |
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Mantis42 posted:Johan is bad at Paradox games. Have you ever seen the Dev clashes? ironic. he could grant others the means to conquest, but not himself
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 10:34 |
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Radio Free Kobold posted:what kind of map projection do we need for turtles-all-the-way-down I assume you use an edited version of the Briggs Projection
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 11:01 |
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Torrannor posted:I have never played EU so I can't comment on that, but I think you are underestimating when your genius, gregarious, 20 diplomacy ruler is succeeded by the craven, arbitrary son who just picked up the kinslayer trait by getting caught murdering his father. The power of your realm can indeed crash impressively. Yeah but it happens more organically than "you aren't generating enough points to keep up with research". Instead you get vassals sensing weakness and forming factions to depose you and so on. It's a consequence of character interaction rather than an abstraction. Because of that, it means there are also ways to counter/prevent it - proactively imprison your strongest vassals with your string ruler, or save up cash to hire mercs to face down a revolt, or just carefully manage your vassal's holdings so none of them individually have much power so it takes a large number of them banding together to pose a serious threat. All of this is more interesting than "well you just suck for a while". The thing here is that it's still abstracted - character relationships are rated as like "+50" which you might notice is not how friendship works in real life - but its abstracted in a way that still feels natural enough that you don't notice the abstraction.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 15:19 |
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The Cheshire Cat posted:The thing here is that it's still abstracted - character relationships are rated as like "+50" which you might notice is not how friendship works in real life
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 16:32 |
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I'd rather not have to purchase a small super computer with a neural network just to emulate social relationships in a video game.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 17:10 |
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# ? May 31, 2024 02:47 |
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The Cheshire Cat posted:The thing here is that it's still abstracted - character relationships are rated as like "+50" which you might notice is not how friendship works in real life I'm downvoting this post.
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# ? Jun 12, 2018 17:19 |