Paradox Grand Strategy: Tim Cook? How many divisions has he got?

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GrossMurpel: Apr 8, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

As long as they're all related to the resource you've created...

I'm not exactly sure what you're thinking of with entirely unrelated things here, can you give an example?

Military power can be used for
- burning a colony
- harsh treatment
- forced march
- war taxes
- recruiting a general
- tech of course

Sure they're all vaguely military things but by the same logic you could just have one kind of monarch power that does everything because it's all vaguely related to governing your nation.
It's just abstractions thrown into widely different concepts because Paradox has adopted the stance that it's inherently fun to have many, many actions tied to the same three resources so you always have to make choices between different areas of managing your country. I disagree with that idea.
I know I'm in the minority there, just thought I'd elaborate what exactly the problem is :shrug:

Fake edit:

Gamerofthegame posted:

using for tech/policies/the-various-government-buttons makes sense but I guess mana for development doesn't, not really

Great point, I completely forgot about development, that makes everything about 3 times worse.

# ? Jun 11, 2018 22:41

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# ? May 30, 2024 21:09

Tomn: Aug 23, 2007; And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

DrSunshine posted:

The joking around of mapping of Paradox concepts onto modern day things just makes me want to have a modern-day Paradox game.

EDIT: Or any GSG, really, where you get to play as a political party, and a big part of the gameplay involves horse-trading to pass legislation and create a coalition, with each party involved in negotiation rounds spending political power points to get concessions, HOI4-style. Parties, the basic unit of play, would arise dynamically from pops -- if enough pops in a region share the same ideals, a political party would spontaneously arise. Parties would get Political Power from pops, events, and leaders, and spend them to increase their share of the population, craft legislation, do diplomacy, recruit and promote leaders, and so on. Kind of an even mix of HOI4 and EU4 with a V2 pop system.

A man can dream...

Well, there's the Geopolitical Simulator series which sorta lets you do that, with individual characters for the heads of various lobbies that you can call up at any time to interact with and other such details.

It is beyond janky, though. Like a worse-coded Dwarf Fortress but for real life politics.

I seem to recall the last time I messed with the game I mostly signed a bunch of trade deals as Canada that apparently made money from near nothing, got bored, played as Obama instead and spent most of my time trying to sleep with the wives of other heads of state, mostly because "Holy poo poo I can do that?"

# ? Jun 11, 2018 22:50

Mister Bates: Aug 4, 2010

Tomn posted:

Well, there's the Geopolitical Simulator series which sorta lets you do that, with individual characters for the heads of various lobbies that you can call up at any time to interact with and other such details.

It is beyond janky, though. Like a worse-coded Dwarf Fortress but for real life politics.

I seem to recall the last time I messed with the game I mostly signed a bunch of trade deals as Canada that apparently made money from near nothing, got bored, played as Obama instead and spent most of my time trying to sleep with the wives of other heads of state, mostly because "Holy poo poo I can do that?"

it's both hilariously janky and also Eurocentric as hell, to a level that edges into overt racism at times - the level of detail with which a country's internal politics are modeled seems to be based primarily on how white the country's population is; France has every single podunk extremist political party modeled, including a few which have no parliamentary representation, while there are African countries in the game that just have a couple of random made-up parties. sometimes it doesn't even get their political systems right - Angola, which in real life is a multiparty democracy, is simulated in game with the government type of 'totalitarian extreme left' ruled by a Marxist-Leninist vanguard party.

also there is a secret global terrorist network in the game called 'Islamic Jihad' which is the biggest national security threat to every country everywhere, while most real-life domestic terror threats literally don't exist in the Geopolitical Simulator games

also Native American militant groups (which only exist in Mexico ingame, lol) are not only called 'Indians' but use Indian names for all their leaders, as in, Indian-from-India names

# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:03

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Mister Bates posted:

it's both hilariously janky and also Eurocentric as hell, to a level that edges into overt racism at times - the level of detail with which a country's internal politics are modeled seems to be based primarily on how white the country's population is; France has every single podunk extremist political party modeled, including a few which have no parliamentary representation, while there are African countries in the game that just have a couple of random made-up parties. sometimes it doesn't even get their political systems right - Angola, which in real life is a multiparty democracy, is simulated in game with the government type of 'totalitarian extreme left' ruled by a Marxist-Leninist vanguard party.

also there is a secret global terrorist network in the game called 'Islamic Jihad' which is the biggest national security threat to every country everywhere, while most real-life domestic terror threats literally don't exist in the Geopolitical Simulator games

also Native American militant groups (which only exist in Mexico ingame, lol) are not only called 'Indians' but use Indian names for all their leaders, as in, Indian-from-India names

ahahahahahaha

# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:06

upgunned shitpost: Jan 21, 2015

the ideal system is one where you spend money and allocate manpower to specific scientific or industrial fields, with no control of what you're going to get, just like in real life. but then you wind up with titanium horseshoes and no gunpowder, at which point you realize that 'mana' is the best way to go.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:12

Minenfeld!: Aug 21, 2012

Are you suggesting that governments hurl money into a hole filled with researchers and whatever they get back, they settle for?

# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:13

Jackie D: May 27, 2009; Democracy is like a tambourine - not everyone can be trusted with it.

Where's the lie

# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:19

upgunned shitpost: Jan 21, 2015

Minenfeld! posted:

Are you suggesting that governments hurl money into a hole filled with researchers and whatever they get back, they settle for?

the internet was supposed to be the greatest tool ever invented, instead we got a dystopic panopticon that breeds nazis and cat memes

sometimes poo poo just doesn't work out no matter how hard some muthafucka science'd it

# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:24

DrSunshine: Mar 23, 2009; Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!

Mister Bates posted:

it's both hilariously janky and also Eurocentric as hell, to a level that edges into overt racism at times - the level of detail with which a country's internal politics are modeled seems to be based primarily on how white the country's population is; France has every single podunk extremist political party modeled, including a few which have no parliamentary representation, while there are African countries in the game that just have a couple of random made-up parties. sometimes it doesn't even get their political systems right - Angola, which in real life is a multiparty democracy, is simulated in game with the government type of 'totalitarian extreme left' ruled by a Marxist-Leninist vanguard party.

also there is a secret global terrorist network in the game called 'Islamic Jihad' which is the biggest national security threat to every country everywhere, while most real-life domestic terror threats literally don't exist in the Geopolitical Simulator games

also Native American militant groups (which only exist in Mexico ingame, lol) are not only called 'Indians' but use Indian names for all their leaders, as in, Indian-from-India names

It just gets better and better, doesn't it? :wtc:

# ? Jun 12, 2018 00:40

Mister Bates: Aug 4, 2010

I would never advocate anyone actually spend any money on a Geopolitical Simulator game (the current one is Power and Revolution), but I made the mistake of doing so once, and I kind of want to run through it on here sometime just so others can share in my horror.

They're awful games in basically every way. Everything about them is just deranged and illogical, like it was made by white-nationalist aliens from Venus. The data they use for their simulation seems to be mostly pulled directly from their asses, to the point that they'll get basic poo poo like national government types wrong (in addition to Angola, other nations which are run by Marxist-Leninists in the Geopolitical Simulator version of the present day include Afghanistan). The UI is atrocious and it's rarely clear what exactly you're doing or what effect it's having. The vast majority of the game consists of setting up meetings with various public figures - government ministers, leaders of parties and special interest groups, leaders of terrorist organizations, etc. - and in these meetings, which are all inexplicably voice-acted and have terrifying animated 3D talking heads jawing at you, you are presented a dialogue tree, in which the options for nearly every one are basically 'ask for support', 'ask for money', 'offer coffee', 'offer booze', 'compliment', and 'attempt to have sex with'.

bizarrely, the game both requires extremely granular micro-management and grants you almost no control over things. as the leader of an underground movement or guerrilla organization, you have to control budgetary allocations down to individual dollars and cents to every branch of the organization, plan every event and action, set up meetings and build up your network yourself - but you can't decide where or when to establish camps, position your units, or do much of anything to directly control what the group is actually doing (until they start fighting for control of a city, at which point the game expects you to zoom in and control every individual unit in the street-fight yourself in a tacked-on RTS mode). As the leader of a political party, you can give your parliamentary representatives voting recommendations - but they'll just vote in line with your party's ideology no matter what your recommendation is, so it does literally nothing. If you recommend they vote against your party's ideology the game will yell at you, if you don't give them a recommendation at all the game will yell at you. You can't change your party platform, and if you make campaign promises that don't jive with your party's hardcoded platform the game yells at you, and doing that too much is actually a failure state for the game - which means there are certain countries where the player simply can't implement certain pieces of legislation, because there isn't a political party for every ideology in every country.

it's also, as previously mentioned, pretty racist. European countries are depicted in excruciating detail (there's like a dozen playable parties in Ireland alone), African countries get jack poo poo. Muslims and the 'Chinese Mafia' are pervasive global threats while far-right militants literally don't exist. Left-wing groups have to petition for funding from a 'left-wing billionaire' character who is an obvious standin for George Soros. Native-American Indians and Indian-Subcontinent Indians get mixed up.

It's Steppe Wolfe with a budget and a pricetag (one hell of a pricetag at that)

# ? Jun 12, 2018 01:08

Bold Robot: Jan 6, 2009; Be brave.

Mister Bates posted:

I would never advocate anyone actually spend any money on a Geopolitical Simulator game (the current one is Power and Revolution), but I made the mistake of doing so once, and I kind of want to run through it on here sometime just so others can share in my horror.

They're awful games in basically every way. Everything about them is just deranged and illogical, like it was made by white-nationalist aliens from Venus. The data they use for their simulation seems to be mostly pulled directly from their asses, to the point that they'll get basic poo poo like national government types wrong (in addition to Angola, other nations which are run by Marxist-Leninists in the Geopolitical Simulator version of the present day include Afghanistan). The UI is atrocious and it's rarely clear what exactly you're doing or what effect it's having. The vast majority of the game consists of setting up meetings with various public figures - government ministers, leaders of parties and special interest groups, leaders of terrorist organizations, etc. - and in these meetings, which are all inexplicably voice-acted and have terrifying animated 3D talking heads jawing at you, you are presented a dialogue tree, in which the options for nearly every one are basically 'ask for support', 'ask for money', 'offer coffee', 'offer booze', 'compliment', and 'attempt to have sex with'.

bizarrely, the game both requires extremely granular micro-management and grants you almost no control over things. as the leader of an underground movement or guerrilla organization, you have to control budgetary allocations down to individual dollars and cents to every branch of the organization, plan every event and action, set up meetings and build up your network yourself - but you can't decide where or when to establish camps, position your units, or do much of anything to directly control what the group is actually doing (until they start fighting for control of a city, at which point the game expects you to zoom in and control every individual unit in the street-fight yourself in a tacked-on RTS mode). As the leader of a political party, you can give your parliamentary representatives voting recommendations - but they'll just vote in line with your party's ideology no matter what your recommendation is, so it does literally nothing. If you recommend they vote against your party's ideology the game will yell at you, if you don't give them a recommendation at all the game will yell at you. You can't change your party platform, and if you make campaign promises that don't jive with your party's hardcoded platform the game yells at you, and doing that too much is actually a failure state for the game - which means there are certain countries where the player simply can't implement certain pieces of legislation, because there isn't a political party for every ideology in every country.

it's also, as previously mentioned, pretty racist. European countries are depicted in excruciating detail (there's like a dozen playable parties in Ireland alone), African countries get jack poo poo. Muslims and the 'Chinese Mafia' are pervasive global threats while far-right militants literally don't exist. Left-wing groups have to petition for funding from a 'left-wing billionaire' character who is an obvious standin for George Soros. Native-American Indians and Indian-Subcontinent Indians get mixed up.

It's Steppe Wolfe with a budget and a pricetag (one hell of a pricetag at that)

You got any screenshots? It sounds like there is more comedy here.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 01:42

Beamed: Nov 26, 2010; Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.

Jazerus posted:

because then they can feel human again by calling it "mana" dismissively and pretending that monarch points weren't a vast improvement on eu3's system

I was about to comment how long it's been since the thread freaked out at people calling it mana, and how it might indicate we're looking at Paradox games in more detail than before :allears:

# ? Jun 12, 2018 01:55

feller: Jul 5, 2006

Beamed posted:

I was about to comment how long it's been since the thread freaked out at people calling it mana, and how it might indicate we're looking at Paradox games in more detail than before

Referring to monarch power as mana is truly the height of game criticism

# ? Jun 12, 2018 02:32

DrSunshine: Mar 23, 2009; Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!

Mana is actually a good thing! Like, can you imagine if Paradox had implemented things based on a Vancian spellcasting system? *shudders*

# ? Jun 12, 2018 02:54

Prav: Oct 29, 2011

with four types of mana it stands to reason that each will map to one of the classical elements. now virtus is obviously the fires of war, but anyone got any suggestions for the other three?

note that i will fist fight you right here if you claim aether is a real element.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 03:04

Arrhythmia: Jul 22, 2011

Prav posted:

with four types of mana it stands to reason that each will map to one of the classical elements. now virtus is obviously the fires of war, but anyone got any suggestions for the other three?

note that i will fist fight you right here if you claim aether is a real element.

What other medium would light move through if it wasn't? Check AND mate.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 03:19

catlord: Mar 22, 2009; What's on your mind, Axa?

Prav posted:

with four types of mana it stands to reason that each will map to one of the classical elements. now virtus is obviously the fires of war, but anyone got any suggestions for the other three?

note that i will fist fight you right here if you claim aether is a real element.

Which one's wood.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 03:41

upgunned shitpost: Jan 21, 2015

modern games should only have two buttons, one with a carrot and the other a stick.

you can put either the stick or the carrot in your bum, but not both.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 03:47

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

GrossMurpel posted:

Military power can be used for
- burning a colony
- harsh treatment
- forced march
- war taxes
- recruiting a general
- tech of course

Sure they're all vaguely military things but by the same logic you could just have one kind of monarch power that does everything because it's all vaguely related to governing your nation.
It's just abstractions thrown into widely different concepts because Paradox has adopted the stance that it's inherently fun to have many, many actions tied to the same three resources so you always have to make choices between different areas of managing your country. I disagree with that idea.
I know I'm in the minority there, just thought I'd elaborate what exactly the problem is

What would be the alternative? Have Harsh Treatment Power, Forced March Power, War Taxes Power, and so on? I can't see how throwing everything into a single type of MP would help either, that'd make it impossible to differentiate monarchs based on their overall strengths - no more having a military genius who nonetheless sucks at everything else, which pushes you towards beefing up the military side of things. Obviously you could subdivide things further, but the more you subdivide the fewer choices the player has to make - turning the use of an ability into mostly a question of whether to use it now or later, rather than whether there are other options that are a more useful use of your MP. Not saying three is the perfect number here, it's probably actually the lower bound of how many types you need - but I don't imagine going much above three would do a game much good either.

In terms of how MP is gained, I think someone else suggested that it shouldn't be as tied to the ruler in the later parts of the game, and I can definitely see that. Like, the state bureaucracy could be a thing that gets build up over time that increases the base MP gain, lessening the impact of the monarch - the growing MP pool would then also mean more abilities could be unlocked to use this power.

GrossMurpel posted:

Great point, I completely forgot about development, that makes everything about 3 times worse.

In terms of being tied to MP I don't see the issue of development - the same kind of skills that has the monarch oversee a great expansion of trade outside the country could probably also be used to tear down internal barriers to trade.

Now, the way development itself is actually implemented, that's another matter. From my point of view, the fact that development is essentially static without intervention is terrible; the core of it should be a population growth system that's only indirectly tied to player actions* - with "development" being a question of how wealthy and ordered a province is, how strongly the province is tied to the power of the state and thus how easily its resources can be marshaled for use by the state. Sort of like autonomy I suppose, but more sticky - and autonomy here meaning proper autonomy, with some of the locals effectively being out of reach of state power. (As opposed to the delegated state power of estates.) Actually, autonomy could grow naturally out of population growth, meaning you actually have to integrate this growing population into the state - I believe historically China had some difficulty on this front, with its population exploding around the 17th century but the bureaucracy staying the exact same size, making it less able to actually use this larger population.

*Every province has a population potential, which can change over time - some provinces might start out near their base potential, others could be sparsely populated and ready to grow. More wealth flowing into a region (like from being heavily trade based) increases population growth, stuff like that. Easily understood stuff, but not the rule going "Now kiss". Basically, I think the fact that a lot of the Middle East had basically a stagnant population over this period while for example England grew fivefold should have an ingame effect - even if player intervention should be able to affect the outcome for their own country.

A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jun 12, 2018

# ? Jun 12, 2018 06:28

Fister Roboto: Feb 21, 2008

I just remembered that Vicky 2 had oppression mana, represented by a boot stamping on a human face - forever.

I liked oppression mana.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 06:56

Jack2142: Jul 17, 2014; Shitposting in Seattle

Bold Robot posted:

You got any screenshots? It sounds like there is more comedy here.

I'm about 90% certain someone did an LP of this a couple months ago as JEB!

# ? Jun 12, 2018 07:04

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Jack2142 posted:

I'm about 90% certain someone did an LP of this a couple months ago as JEB!

i need a link right now

# ? Jun 12, 2018 07:08

Torrannor: Apr 27, 2013; ---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

The Cheshire Cat posted:

Yeah I think part of why people dislike it is also the mechanical impact of getting a lovely heir. Your progress just grinds to a halt. Sure you can make up for it a little bit with advisors, but the monarch themselves has far and away the largest impact and advisors are very expensive. Compare to CK2 where your character's stats are important for their demense, but the power of your realm as a whole tends doesn't change a lot between characters.

I have never played EU so I can't comment on that, but I think you are underestimating when your genius, gregarious, 20 diplomacy ruler is succeeded by the craven, arbitrary son who just picked up the kinslayer trait by getting caught murdering his father. The power of your realm can indeed crash impressively.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 07:32

TheMcD: May 4, 2013; Monaca / Subject N 2024
---------
Despair will never let you down.
Malice will never disappoint you.

Raskolnikov38 posted:

i need a link right now

Here you go.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 07:47

NoNotTheMindProbe: Aug 9, 2010; pony porn was here

I wonder how viable all those 2 pixel wide nations are to actually play as.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 07:50

Charlz Guybon: Nov 16, 2010

This sounds awesome.

https://waypoint.vice.com/amp/en_us...impression=true

quote:

...

�I was playing a game as some Italian minor power, and I didn�t care that much about loyalty because I was having my main army led by a general who was super loyal because he was the leader of the Republic,� Andersson explains.

In other words, the republic that Andersson was controlling was presently led by a brilliant general who, for as long as as he was in office, was practically Andersson�s avatar. Very l�etat c�est moi kind of stuff.

But the exact meaning of �loyalty� is important here. Imperator abstracts away a lot of the gritty details about domestic politics in favor of a loyalty system that measures characters� allegiance to the state. Andersson was ignoring the loyalty of other characters who were filling roles in governance and administration because, with the military being controlled directly by the ruler of the republic (whose loyalty to the state he ruled was naturally maxed-out), the chance of a coup seemed nonexistent.

�Everyone else was slightly annoyed because [my ruler] was extremely uncharismatic. He had a really low oratory skill. So loyalty started dropping for people,� Andersson says. �But I didn�t really care that much because I had the army. But [other characters] started a civil war controlling two-thirds of my territory, and pretty much all my good characters and a lot of my gold.�

Now Andersson was basically on the wrong side of a civil war. His enemies had most of the power of the legitimate state, and Andersson�s ruler was now head of an elite loyalist army, a small patch of territory, and whatever meathead officers his ruler had surrounded himself with.

�[The rebels] basically raised another army quickly, and while my army was enormously experienced, I ended up in a really costly war because I had no characters I could really put in charge. Because the rebels were the most competent people in my country. And I basically had to get less competent people to do my research and handle my governors.�

...

# ? Jun 12, 2018 08:18

Jack2142: Jul 17, 2014; Shitposting in Seattle

Charlz Guybon posted:

This sounds awesome.

https://waypoint.vice.com/amp/en_us...impression=true

I'm sold... I mean I was already, but drat!

# ? Jun 12, 2018 08:32

Radio Free Kobold: Aug 11, 2012; "Federal regulations mandate that at least 30% of our content must promote Reptilian or Draconic culture. This is DJ Scratch N' Sniff with the latest mermaid screeching on KBLD..."

I think my biggest beef with monarch points is that they're tied to the ruler, and there's nothing the player can really do to affect the ruler (and the heir). Sure you can mitigate it by throwing money at advisors, but just about everyone is rolling with advisors so you still wind up with less MPs. Someone mentioned having more base MP gain as the game progresses, reflecting more capable apparatus of state and more options as time goes on, and I think that'd really alleviate my annoyance with the system. As-is, it's the exact same consideration of opportunity cost at game start and game end, and I can't influence my resource gain at all which is really bad for something so critical. Something something vicky 2 blackbox economy.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 09:22

Charlz Guybon: Nov 16, 2010

Radio Free Kobold posted:

I think my biggest beef with monarch points is that they're tied to the ruler, and there's nothing the player can really do to affect the ruler (and the heir). Sure you can mitigate it by throwing money at advisors, but just about everyone is rolling with advisors so you still wind up with less MPs. Someone mentioned having more base MP gain as the game progresses, reflecting more capable apparatus of state and more options as time goes on, and I think that'd really alleviate my annoyance with the system. As-is, it's the exact same consideration of opportunity cost at game start and game end, and I can't influence my resource gain at all which is really bad for something so critical. Something something vicky 2 blackbox economy.

With a republic you should be able to choose who to support though. Maybe it doesn't always get you who you want in charge, but it's better than a random monarchy.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 09:33

reignonyourparade: Nov 15, 2012

Kind of a shame that they switched over to a globe on the exact right game for a The-World-Is-Literally-Flat-On-Top-Of-A-Cube-Glorantha mod.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 09:40

Radio Free Kobold: Aug 11, 2012; "Federal regulations mandate that at least 30% of our content must promote Reptilian or Draconic culture. This is DJ Scratch N' Sniff with the latest mermaid screeching on KBLD..."

reignonyourparade posted:

Kind of a shame that they switched over to a globe on the exact right game for a The-World-Is-Literally-Flat-On-Top-Of-A-Cube-Glorantha mod.

what kind of map projection do we need for turtles-all-the-way-down

# ? Jun 12, 2018 09:45

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Charlz Guybon posted:

This sounds awesome.

https://waypoint.vice.com/amp/en_us...impression=true

Doesn't surprise me that Johan would play the game like a tin-pot dictator.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 09:57

Tomn: Aug 23, 2007; And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

Charlz Guybon posted:

This sounds awesome.

https://waypoint.vice.com/amp/en_us...impression=true

While this does sound neat, it also sounds like almost deliberately bad play.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 10:21

Mantis42: Jul 26, 2010; Can't post for 3 hours!

Johan is bad at Paradox games. Have you ever seen the Dev clashes?

# ? Jun 12, 2018 10:23

Radio Free Kobold: Aug 11, 2012; "Federal regulations mandate that at least 30% of our content must promote Reptilian or Draconic culture. This is DJ Scratch N' Sniff with the latest mermaid screeching on KBLD..."

Mantis42 posted:

Johan is bad at Paradox games. Have you ever seen the Dev clashes?

ironic. he could grant others the means to conquest, but not himself

# ? Jun 12, 2018 10:34

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

Radio Free Kobold posted:

what kind of map projection do we need for turtles-all-the-way-down

I assume you use an edited version of the Briggs Projection

# ? Jun 12, 2018 11:01

The Cheshire Cat: Jun 10, 2008; Fun Shoe

Torrannor posted:

I have never played EU so I can't comment on that, but I think you are underestimating when your genius, gregarious, 20 diplomacy ruler is succeeded by the craven, arbitrary son who just picked up the kinslayer trait by getting caught murdering his father. The power of your realm can indeed crash impressively.

Yeah but it happens more organically than "you aren't generating enough points to keep up with research". Instead you get vassals sensing weakness and forming factions to depose you and so on. It's a consequence of character interaction rather than an abstraction. Because of that, it means there are also ways to counter/prevent it - proactively imprison your strongest vassals with your string ruler, or save up cash to hire mercs to face down a revolt, or just carefully manage your vassal's holdings so none of them individually have much power so it takes a large number of them banding together to pose a serious threat. All of this is more interesting than "well you just suck for a while".

The thing here is that it's still abstracted - character relationships are rated as like "+50" which you might notice is not how friendship works in real life - but its abstracted in a way that still feels natural enough that you don't notice the abstraction.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 15:19

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

The Cheshire Cat posted:

The thing here is that it's still abstracted - character relationships are rated as like "+50" which you might notice is not how friendship works in real life

Give it a decade.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 16:32

Westminster System: Jul 4, 2009

I'd rather not have to purchase a small super computer with a neural network just to emulate social relationships in a video game.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 17:10

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 30, 2024 21:09

Fister Roboto: Feb 21, 2008

The Cheshire Cat posted:

The thing here is that it's still abstracted - character relationships are rated as like "+50" which you might notice is not how friendship works in real life

I'm downvoting this post.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 17:19

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