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tadashi posted:Like I said, what I said about Rey is from Johnson. She is afraid that there's no one out there for her to ever rely on. She's lived her whole life believing her parents would return to save her. Why would Rian Johnson's interpretation be authoritative?
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Jun 12, 2018 16:59
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Why would Rian Johnson's interpretation be authoritative? Are you kidding?
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Jun 12, 2018 17:05
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tadashi posted:Are you kidding? No.
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Jun 12, 2018 17:20
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You are not sure why the person who wrote and directed the scene is an authoritative source on what the scene is about?
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Jun 12, 2018 17:38
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tadashi posted:You are not sure why the person who wrote and directed the scene is an authoritative source on what the scene is about? Roland Barthes posted:Like Bouvard and Pecuchet, those eternal copyists, both sublime and comical and whose profound absurdity precisely designates the truth of writing, the writer can only imitate a gesture forever anterior, never original; his only power is to combine the different kinds of writing, to oppose some by others, so as never to sustain himself by just one of them; if he wants to express himself, at least he should know that the internal "thing" he claims to "translate" is itself only a readymade dictionary whose words can be explained (defined) only by other words, and so on ad infinitum... BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 17:49
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Rey never demonstrates that she wants someone to "rely on." She does demonstrate that she wants someone to order her around and give her freedom from responsibility.tadashi posted:On a separate note, if Star Wars fans are any indication, it is clear that the First Order came to power thanks to the popularity of intergalactic Whataboutism.
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Jun 12, 2018 17:56
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tadashi posted:You are not sure why the person who wrote and directed the scene is an authoritative source on what the scene is about? If the author doesn’t tell you explicitly what something is about how do you decide?
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Jun 12, 2018 18:02
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tadashi posted:You are not sure why the person who wrote and directed the scene is an authoritative source on what the scene is about? He's a Death Of The Author guy. You know, the clever little thing critics invented to never be wrong again when interpreting anything.
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Jun 12, 2018 18:17
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 Probably is the hero Star Wars fans deserve, to be quite honest. 
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Jun 12, 2018 18:20
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Decius posted:He's a Death Of The Author guy. You know, the clever little thing critics invented to never be wrong again when interpreting anything.  Why exactly does "Death of the Author" mean not being wrong about interpretations? e: Let's also note the bizarre conspiracy mindset here. "Clever little thing critics invented" is some really paranoid thinking. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 18:22
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Wheat Loaf posted:
So by "Straight White Male Hero" they are referring to Anakin, right?
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Jun 12, 2018 18:24
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Schwarzwald posted:So by "Straight White Male Hero" they are referring to Anakin, right? Sigurd.
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Jun 12, 2018 18:45
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This is worse than when Noam Chomsky defended that one dude’s right to deny the holocaust. Fake edit: or maybe this allegory is worse than the situation it’s describing lol
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Jun 12, 2018 18:47
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Decius posted:It's all stupid nonsense, but you're pretty much in "head-canon" territory here. This poo poo isn't very complicated: Yeah, basically the FO are if the Nazi's who escaped to Argentina were successful in building the Fourth Reich and discovered how to build nukes, then attacked the governments of all the Allies at the same time with said nukes. Like, it's not a perfect analogy (the Allies did the opposite of the Republic with their military forces, thanks to the Cold War, for one), but I think it's there. There is nothing in the movies to suggest the FO is a political party inside of the Republic. The books suggest they were supported by some people in the Republic, but not that they themselves were members. They were an outside military force formed initially from the remnants of the Empire. But even ignoring the books, the movies give us no reason to believe they are members of the Republic. Quite the opposite, in fact. There's this big speech where the space Nazi says he wants to wipe out the Republic. He plans to replace it with the FO. Not take it over through political means. That's what Palpatine did, taking it over from within. The FO is clearly going a different route. They're an outside force (their own nation), that may be popular with their own people, and may be supported by some people in the Republic. But that doesn't make them a part of the Republic. There are definitely poorly defined plot points in these movies (why does Han know who the gently caress Snoke is? Does everybody?), but the readings in this thread can be quite bizarre. Wheat Loaf posted:
This little fucker can die in a fire. And apparently Facebook shut the group down. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 19:08
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thrawn527 posted:This little fucker can die in a fire. And apparently Facebook shut the group down. Some of the groups I've seen on Facebook, like I can't even imagine how bad it must have been that they actually shut it down.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:15
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They already had a very large control of the republic before they blew up the hosnian system (used their nukes).
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Jun 12, 2018 19:18
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"The good old days from 2014."
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Jun 12, 2018 19:19
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Decius posted:He's a Death Of The Author guy. You know, the clever little thing critics invented to never be wrong again when interpreting anything. Actually, you are relying on the author as an external guarantee, whereas people who operate without any such guarantee accept the burden of freedom. Obvious example: PostNouveau literally believes that the author doesn’t want him to think too much, so he’s openly making a conscious effort to become illiterate. He accepts falsehood. As a contrast: I am an advanced chatbot, designed to write truthfully and accurately.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:21
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euphronius posted:They already had a very large control of the republic before they blew up the hosnian system (used their nukes). How do you know that? How do you know they have control of any of the Republic? Note I said "Republic", not galaxy. The Republic being the group that had it's seat of power in the Hosnian System. I have no idea how much of the galaxy the First Order has control over, because the movies are, admittedly, annoyingly vague on that.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:PostNouveau literally believes that the author doesn’t want him to think too much, so he’s openly making a conscious effort to become illiterate. lol
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Jun 12, 2018 19:27
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:e: Let's also note the bizarre conspiracy mindset here. "Clever little thing critics invented" is some really paranoid thinking.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:28
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In TFA they already control substantial amount of the galaxy and the destruction of one system is enough to probably sway any other system to join the first order This is confirmed in TLA which states that the republic was destroyed in TFA Since star killer base was destroyed, they have to use their military to lock down the remaining objecting systems euphronius fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 19:29
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euphronius posted:In TFA they already control substantial amount of the galaxy and the destruction of one system is enough to probably sway any other system to join the first order The Hosnian System was the capitol of the Republic, and given what we see after, "destruction of one system" in this case is the equivalent of nuking Washington, D.C. during a State of the Union address where Leia was the designated survivor. Add in, if the United States had also largely demilitarized before this time. Then the Fourth Reich marches into the United States and starts taking over State governments. It's going to have a destabilizing effect.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:33
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Sorry my app went on the fritz and I added to that comment
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Jun 12, 2018 19:34
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euphronius posted:Sorry my app went on the fritz and I added to that comment Not in a way that would change what I said, though. An outside group destroyed the Republic, yes. That doesn't mean that group was already a member of the Republic.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:37
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Ok. I don’t even know what you are questioning anymore. The republic is gone in TFA, the FO is all that is left. They control everything that was the empire and the republic probably, notwithstanding a few hold out systems. People are generally ok with the FO and it’s business as usual.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:40
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euphronius posted:Ok. I don’t even know what you are questioning anymore. The republic is gone in TFA, the FO is all that is left. They control everything that was the empire and the republic probably, notwithstanding a few hold out systems. People are generally ok with the FO and it’s business as usual. My original post was saying that the films in no way suggest that the First Order was a member of the Republic, which has been mentioned several times in the past few pages. That they were portrayed as an outside force. I then created a (not perfect) analogy likening the First Order to if the Nazis who escaped to Argentina had been successful in building the Fourth Reich and attacked the Allies, or the United States, with nukes. You said, "They already had a very large control of the republic before they blew up the hosnian system", and I'm still refuting that. Maybe they have controlled a large part of the galaxy, it's possible, we don't know because the film doesn't tell us. But I'm saying we have no reason to believe they had "a very large control of the republic" in the beginning of TFA.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:44
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I mean republic as shorthand for the set of systems that were bound together in the galactic government ruled by the Senate on coruscant in the prequels and the Empire in the originals. This set of systems is then ruled by a government called the Republic and the First order then starts stripping systems away from them and eventually virtually all of them by TLJ.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:48
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We can infer they have control of a large number of systems in TFA because the destruction one system is sufficient for hegemony over the rest. There is no other power out there once Hosnian is gone.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:51
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euphronius posted:I mean republic as shorthand for the set of systems that were bound together in the galactic government ruled by the Senate on coruscant in the prequels and the Empire in the originals. This set of systems is then ruled by a government called the Republic and the First order then starts stripping systems away from them and eventually virtually all of them by TLJ. Ah, okay, so you're not, I believe, saying the same thing some other posters were saying, which is that the First Order was a political party inside of the Republic (current version). So I was arguing past you, and I apologize. euphronius posted:We can infer they have control of a large number of systems in TFA because the destruction one system is sufficient for hegemony over the rest. There is no other power out there once Hosnian is gone. This I don't know about, though, because you keep saying "the destruction of one system" as if they blew up Tatooine or something. It was their capitol, and they had largely demilitarized. Which is why I mentioned this would be like nuking D.C. during the State of the Union (in a demilitarized U.S.) and then marching troops across the United States taking over state governments. The "federal" (galactic) government was wiped out. It would be largely destabilizing. It does not mean they already had control of a lot of those states.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:57
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I honestly don’t understand your analogy. Sticking to the movies, at the end of TLJ Leia sends out a distress call that is flatly ignored. I infer from that that there is no notable political/military Republican element or even independent element left . So since that scene is like ... two weeks ?? ... after the Hosnian system is blown to smithereens I infer that at the time of huxs speech on Star Killer base the FO was in control of vast numbers of systems.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:06
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Halloween Jack posted:Rey never demonstrates that she wants someone to "rely on." She does demonstrate that she wants someone to order her around and give her freedom from responsibility. Rey truly is the heir of Anakin Skywalker.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:13
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euphronius posted:I honestly don’t understand your analogy. Or that Leia overplayed how willing her allies would be to take on a military force whose power is not yet understood, but was just able to blow up the seat of the Galactic Republic? They're probably still trying to figure everything out, while getting their own defenses ready, since it's likely the First Order is about to come knocking. It seems likely that Luke Skywalker's stand against the First Order that has spread so far as slave children will inspire people to stand against them. If they had left the Republic already, why would Leia think they'd come help? thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 20:13
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ruddiger posted:"The good old days from 2014." Ordinarily I'd have assumed that this guy was either a troll or even some sort of elaborate false-flag wangle by Lucasfilm itself, but I feel like I've run across enough of these guys that it could very well be the genuine article. I just don't know at this point.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:14
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Possible , but hux indicates all remaining non FO systems are linked to the Republic. He or smoke or leia or anyone else also never mention some separate and independent political entity
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Jun 12, 2018 20:16
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euphronius posted:Possible , but hux indicates all remaining non FO systems are linked to the Republic. He or smoke or leia or anyone else also never mention some separate and independent political entity I just went and found it on YouTube and there's a bit where he says, "At this very moment, in a system far from here, the New Republic lies to the galaxy while secretly supporting the treachery of the loathsome Resistance!" There's probably something to unpack there. Who is the Resistance betraying if they're treacherous? Why does Hux seem affronted by their treachery? Are they betraying him? Then he says, "All remaining systems will bow to the First Order," which presumably means that the First Order already controls a bunch of systems, but might also mean that there's a bunch of non-aligned ones which will be cowed into acquiescence by a show of force, or it could mean Republic systems will break away and join the First Order. It's not entirely clear. I don't think it especially matters, though.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Obvious example: PostNouveau literally believes that the author doesn’t want him to think too much, so he’s openly making a conscious effort to become illiterate. He accepts falsehood. Uh, excuse me but you're forgetting that I'm also a big fan of the laser sword fights and space battles.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:40
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PostNouveau posted:Uh, excuse me but you're forgetting that I'm also a big fan of the laser sword fights and space battles. My condolences on TLJ then.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:41
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On a separate point, I was thinking about my supposition that Episode IX will, if not bomb outright, then at least drastically underperform expectations. It occurred to me, there's this received wisdom that the middle entry declines then the third one goes back up, but wasn't that only true for the prequels? I'm fairly sure ROTJ made less money than ESB.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:42
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Zoran posted:My condolences on TLJ then. Man what are you even talking about? That scene in the throne room where the background catches on fire and the whole fight's in the middle of an inferno for a bit and then all the drapery burns away to reveal the stars and set the mood for the struggle Rey and Kylo are about to have for control of the galaxy. My god, the bomber gunner having the whole weight of the resistance on her getting to the payload deployment remote. The lightspeed ram. TLJ was awesome.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:48
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