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https://twitter.com/pdanahar/status/1006571445013577728
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Jun 12, 2018 19:29
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Sinteres posted:Again, Democrats don't oppose the idea of peace with North Korea (Bill Clinton's framework was a lot more serious than this bullshit, and Obama's the one who floated the idea of meeting with them without preconditions in the first place), and while I think their messaging on this has been kind of cynical (and kind of justified in the face of Trump's idiocy), surely the Korea Thread deserves more than galaxy brain both sides are the same takes on US politics. The issue is under Clinton, North Korea was on the brink of collapse, and both sides reneged on that deal. Obama floated the idea and whatever became of it? The North Koreans waited until they had more leverage, the logical course of action. Yeah, the Democrats having a more reasonable or far-sighted foreign policy was honestly always a myth man. If anything Trump's push is an implicit admission that previous strategies were complete failures (it may be as well, we will see). ------------------------------- Also, North Korea is practically a client state, him immediately calling Beijing is probably protocol. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 19:33
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"Nothing less than megadeaths is acceptable! The Korean dogs most be made to bow!" ~ A Democrat in 2018
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Jun 12, 2018 19:33
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Ardennes posted:The issue is under Clinton, North Korea was on the brink of collapse, and both sides reneged on that deal. Obama floated the idea and whatever became of it? The North Koreans waited until they had more leverage, the logical course of action. Both sides reneged...because Republicans refused to implement the deal. You're just making poo poo up to try and pretend ~~both sides are the same~~. Rent-A-Cop posted:"Nothing less than megadeaths is acceptable! The Korean dogs most be made to bow!" ~ A Democrat in 2018 Yeah that definitely reflects reality. Trump's the one who was threatening war in the first place, not the Democrats. He doesn't get credit for talking himself down from killing people. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 19:38
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Sinteres posted:Yeah that definitely reflects reality. It does
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Jun 12, 2018 19:40
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Heard some liberals here were mad at God Emperor Trump for achieving what nobel-prize-winning drone enthusiast Obama failed to 
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Jun 12, 2018 19:46
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Or, that was what China asked NK to haggle for. I am sure China has "remote THAAD" on the shopping list as well.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:47
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Moon got burned. He’s got to stay away from the hot stove
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Jun 12, 2018 19:52
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Seems about right https://twitter.com/burgessev/status/1006609720394821634
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Jun 12, 2018 19:56
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Vladimir Putin posted:Moon got burned. He’s got to stay away from the hot stove You keep saying this but by almost every metric things have been going loving swell for him
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Jun 12, 2018 20:07
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Sinteres posted:Again, Democrats don't oppose the idea of peace with North Korea (Bill Clinton's framework was a lot more serious than this bullshit, and Obama's the one who floated the idea of meeting with them without preconditions in the first place), and while I think their messaging on this has been kind of cynical (and kind of justified in the face of Trump's idiocy), surely the Korea Thread deserves more than galaxy brain both sides are the same takes on US politics. The Democratic plan was to sit back and wait for the DPRK to implode on its own, as it was bound to under the immutable laws of the End of History. I think it's fair to say that there was never any intention for long-term coexistence or detente with North Korea, even if they weren't planning on invading
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Jun 12, 2018 20:07
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Bip Roberts posted:Seems about right Who could’ve guessed?!
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Jun 12, 2018 20:10
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Ardennes posted:I would say it is more both sides oppose the very idea of peace with x/y country for increasingly unclear reasons (also: China backs both of them and the US is an increasingly senile superpower). Nah, a lot of people on the left would have welcomed some kind of deal or a move towards a peace process. What happened instead is that the US government legitimized a Stalinist regime and got nothing in exchange for it. Trump only did this to get ~36h of positive cable news coverage. Why exactly should anyone celebrate this shitshow? When you meet with butchers, at least make sure you get something out of it and aren't just doing a free PR stunt for them.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:11
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icantfindaname posted:The Democratic plan was to sit back and wait for the DPRK to implode on its own, as it was bound to under the immutable laws of the End of History. I think it's fair to say that there was never any intention for long-term coexistence or detente with North Korea, even if they weren't planning on invading So are we still pretending Clinton never tried to make a deal or what? I think Obama would have liked to make a deal too (he reached out to Cuba despite there being no real political need to do so), but he never had the political cover to do it, and North Korea didn't want a deal until they had deliverable nukes by that point. The only reason Trump fell into what people are pretending is a deal is because he scared South Korea into supporting peace, and South Korea papered over differences between what the North Koreans were saying and what Trump was hearing long enough to get them in the same room.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:12
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Sinteres posted:Yeah that definitely reflects reality. It do be like that.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:15
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Why exactly should anyone celebrate this shitshow? Because ending pointless saber rattling military exercises is an objectively good thing, no matter why it's happening.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:21
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Nah, a lot of people on the left would have welcomed some kind of deal or a move towards a peace process. What happened instead is that the US government legitimized a Stalinist regime and got nothing in exchange for it. Trump only did this to get ~36h of positive cable news coverage. Why exactly should anyone celebrate this shitshow? How do you negotiate with a country without legitimizing it? Do you wait until North Korea is non-Stalinist? Ardennes fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 20:24
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Vladimir Putin posted:Moon got burned. He’s got to stay away from the hot stove Lmfao
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Jun 12, 2018 20:25
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:When you meet with butchers, at least make sure you get something out of it and aren't just doing a free PR stunt for them. That’s exactly what Kim did  
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Jun 12, 2018 20:26
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On the off chance that any liberals foaming at the mouth care, South Koreans seem pretty happy about it: https://twitter.com/trevortimm/status/1006612681556545536
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Jun 12, 2018 20:27
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WampaLord posted:Because ending pointless saber rattling military exercises is an objectively good thing, no matter why it's happening. Pence just confirmed that the exercises will continue. And even if he gave something like that up, why not at least ask for SOMETHING in return? Maybe ask for the SKean hostages to be released as a sign of good will? Really, anything. Ardennes posted:How do you negotiate with a country without legitimizing it? What gave you the impression that any kind of negotiation had actually taken place? Any form of serious negotiation would have been handled by the state department and NK foreign ministry. This was just a dumb PR stunt. I'm not even opposed to meeting with autocrats and butchers on principle. If it serves a good purpose, it's worth talking about. But 36h of positive cable news coverage? Really? That's disgusting. GABA ghoul fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 20:34
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All this is really important but I want to focus on the real issues at hand. When they found the Unicorn Lair in NK (no joke), was there any remains of its poop and if so was the poop rainbow colored.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:36
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:
Even if it is "just a stunt" it is the farthest any chance of peace has happened in a while, and to be honest, South Korea isn't treating it as a joke. Also, honestly, the State Department is an off-shoot of the CIA at this point.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:36
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This peace is disgusting! Won't someone please nuke Seoul already!?!? It is imperative we continue the military/diplomatic kayfabe of flying bombers at North Korea once a year for 50 years!
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Jun 12, 2018 20:36
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Ardennes posted:Even if it is "just a stunt" it is the farthest any chance of peace has happened in a while, and to be honest, South Korea isn't treating it as a joke. How? How has this brought the peninsula closer to peace? No agreement was reached, nothing about the situation has changed.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:38
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Butchers
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Jun 12, 2018 20:41
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:How? How has this brought the peninsula closer to peace? No agreement was reached, nothing about the situation has changed. The fact there is a bilateral meeting of heads of state, and the process is ongoing is actually an accomplishment in itself. And yes, North Korea-US relations have changed even if there isn't a framework. I mean you were just decrying North Korea being legitimized? Which one is it?
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Jun 12, 2018 20:42
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Nobody was calling for war in the first place but Trump, but you idiots think he's good now because he agreed to stop making threats until the next time he changes his mind.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:42
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Sinteres posted:Nobody was calling for war in the first place but Trump, but you idiots think he's good now because he agreed to stop making threats until the next time he changes his mind. Does every post have to be prefaced with "Trump bad" just to have any discussion? Yeah, Trump sucks, but this summit was a good step. I know it is hard to comprehend.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:44
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:How? How has this brought the peninsula closer to peace? No agreement was reached, nothing about the situation has changed. because every month Trump gets to jack off about his big fancy meeting is a month he doesn't scream "WHY CAN'T WE BOMB THOSE loving JAPS OR WHATEVER"? You get these meetings are like, half appeasement for US right? Moon's just trying to keep things from being hosed up by our big special wet boy
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Jun 12, 2018 20:44
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Ardennes posted:Does every post have to be prefaced with "Trump bad" just to have any discussion? No, but cutting out the 'actually the Democrats are the real problem when it comes to peace with North Korea' would be a good start.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:45
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Sinteres posted:No, but cutting out the 'actually the Democrats are the real problem when it comes to peace with North Korea' would be a good start. the dems taking a stance of "WHY ARE YOU TALKING WITH KIM AT ALL YOU STUPID PUSSY" is genuinely bad
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Jun 12, 2018 20:46
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sexpig by night posted:the dems taking a stance of "WHY ARE YOU TALKING WITH KIM AT ALL YOU STUPID PUSSY" is genuinely bad They don't think negotiations are bad, they thought a meeting between heads of state with no discernible goals was bad.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:47
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sexpig by night posted:the dems taking a stance of "WHY ARE YOU TALKING WITH KIM AT ALL YOU STUPID PUSSY" is genuinely bad This. Liberals have been peddling orientalist garbage about DPRK for years to avoid having to consider them as humans worth talking to
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Jun 12, 2018 20:48
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Sinteres posted:They don't think negotiations are bad, they thought a meeting between heads of state with no discernible goals was bad. oh wow I guess I just got drunk and hallucinated all the dem takes of 'how dare he give legitimacy to NK' which is 100% imperialist bullshit that means nothing except 'you think North Koreans are human? You idiot, you loving chump, you're playing into their hands!'
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Jun 12, 2018 20:50
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tekz posted:On the off chance that any liberals foaming at the mouth care, South Koreans seem pretty happy about it: This article is great
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Jun 12, 2018 20:52
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sexpig by night posted:oh wow I guess I just got drunk and hallucinated all the dem takes of 'how dare he give legitimacy to NK' which is 100% imperialist bullshit that means nothing except 'you think North Koreans are human? You idiot, you loving chump, you're playing into their hands!' jfc you're dense, giving Kim a big public meeting as equals would be one thing if it had come at the end of a series of negotiations which could lead to a genuine binding deal which presumably would have concessions from both parties, but blowing your wad on the meeting (and yes, contributing to the end of North Korea's diplomatic isolation) for nothing of consequence was a wasted opportunity at best. Diplomacy is good, but foreign policy as reality television is bad. And again, no matter how many times you guys ignore it, Democrats made a deal when Clinton was president. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 20:53
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Ardennes posted:The fact there is a bilateral meeting of heads of state, and the process is ongoing is actually an accomplishment in itself. And yes, North Korea-US relations have changed even if there isn't a framework. Ok, it's an accomplishment. Lots of thing are an accomplishment. How exactly has it brought the peninsula closer to peace? What about the situation that made a peace treaty and rapprochement infeasible has been changed? quote:I mean you were just decrying North Korea being legitimized? Which one is it? Increasing the national and international prestige of the NK regime does not advance the Korean peace process in any way.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:56
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Sinteres posted:jfc you're dense, giving Kim a big public meeting as equals would be one thing if it had come at the end of a series of negotiations which could lead to a genuine binding deal which presumably would have concessions from both parties, but blowing your wad on the meeting (and yes, contributing to the end of North Korea's diplomatic isolation) for nothing of consequence was a wasted opportunity at best. Do you think it's better to keep ignoring them/provoking them until they just decide to do what we say? That's pretty much the alternative, either we suck it up and 'reward' (not enough of a jerkoff motion possible for this) him with the bare scaffolding of respect that is 'we had a 20 minute meeting for publicity' to get him to the table at all or we just keep doing ~hermit kingdom~ bullshit that leads to absolute bonkers poo poo like 'the poor simple savage North Korean isn't even allowed to know what love is' being spread.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:57
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IMO Moon deserves a lot of credit for his diplomacy, and honestly Kim does too. I think he's a monster who's at the head of a nightmare government, but his shrewd diplomacy over the last few months has been a positive, and those efforts should have been encouraged and assisted with US diplomacy too when possible. I just think it was a bad idea for the US to rush in to claim credit/upstage the actual work being done with a stunt meeting that led to no real agreement on anything, and which will make it harder to build trust in the future if the parties feel betrayed when the tenuous good will falls apart again. It's all a performance at this point.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:59
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