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At a certain point, the US has to be involved, and I don't think they can wait until 2021/2025. As far as Trump dominating negotiations, eh not great, but the heads of state need to eventually meet. As far as the arguments about "legitimizing North Korea" and the "exercises"...eh I think it is just pretty much just partisan sniping or Cold War hardlinery. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 21:04
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Ardennes posted:At a certain point, the US has to be involved, and I don't think they can wait until 2021/2025. As far as Trump dominating negotiations, eh fine but heads of state need to eventually meet. Waiting until they had an agenda hammered out seems like it would have been a good idea. I'm not opposed to any meeting involving heads of state at all, I just think this was the dumbest way of doing it possible. I mean even Trump's people were complaining about how the timeline was going to be too tight to make happen, but they did it anyway because on the US side this was 100% about Trump's ego and not about the actual issues. The US does have a nasty way of viewing the world solely through a lens of how they relate to us, but viewing it instead through a lens of how they relate to Trump as an individual doesn't seem like progress.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:06
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sexpig by night posted:Do you think it's better to keep ignoring them/provoking them until they just decide to do what we say? That's pretty much the alternative, either we suck it up and 'reward' (not enough of a jerkoff motion possible for this) him with the bare scaffolding of respect that is 'we had a 20 minute meeting for publicity' to get him to the table at all or we just keep doing ~hermit kingdom~ bullshit that leads to absolute bonkers poo poo like 'the poor simple savage North Korean isn't even allowed to know what love is' being spread. How are you so dense? A peace process is exactly what people on the left want. The point is that a hawk administration with a hawk President who is also mentally retarded is not that. He didn't do anything towards a peace process. It was just a PR stunt for a regime with some of the worst human rights abuse records in recent history. Here is an idea for a peace process: Get the loving tripwire troops out, ask for a limit on warheads and missile range. Or get the troops out, ask for political liberalization. You see the difference?
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Jun 12, 2018 21:07
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Sinteres posted:Waiting until they had an agenda hammered out seems like it would have been a good idea. I'm not opposed to any meeting involving heads of state at all, I just think this was the dumbest way of doing it possible. I mean even Trump's people were complaining about how the timeline was going to be too tight to make happen, but they did it anyway because on the US side this was 100% about Trump's ego and not about the actual issues. I think the real problem is the entire situation. An agenda would mean there is already some type of common agreement in place, and there isn't one. There isn't one because we haven't found a way to guarantee North Korean deterrence. On the other hand, South Korea clearly doesn't want to wait to see when that changes. So we are at an impasse, and the summit was merely buying time.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:09
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If Moon thinks he can control or work with Trump good luck. If SK thinks that Trump can bring them peace, again I say good luck.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:14
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Ardennes posted:I think the real problem is the entire situation. An agenda would mean there is already some type of common agreement in place, and there isn't one. There isn't one because we haven't found a way to guarantee North Korean deterrence. I just don't see where you go from here. Like if they couldn't come to any kind of agreement with the urgency of a looming head of state meeting, which is the biggest gun in the diplomatic arsenal, what's going to get them to yes now? They never even agreed on what the definition of denuclearization is, much less any kind of process for getting there.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:20
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My big problem is that the entire concept of Trump negotiating anything in good faith is contradicted by his entire loving life up to this point. He will renege on any deal and will backstab everyone eventually. He can't grasp the concept of mutual benefit and so will try to bail on any deal that seems to please the other side. The entire concept of Trump improving the Korea situation in the long run by involving himself in it is the purest fantasy for babies. This is a motherfucker who can't get along with CANADA. The most likely outcome is that he realizes Kim is really happy with how the meeting went, and concludes that means he was ripped off by Kim (which he basically was), and throws a tantrum and starts talking about how big his atomic dick is again. I like the idea of Trump solving the Korea situation in the same way I like the idea of a meteor made of platinum landing in my back yard. It would be great if it would happen, sure, but I would also have to be a vast idiot to expect it to ever happen.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:25
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Well he promised to stop the war games which apparently the pentagon says is still on going. So good luck with that when the person you are dealing with has no credibility.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:29
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sean10mm posted:My big problem is that the entire concept of Trump negotiating anything in good faith is contradicted by his entire loving life up to this point. He will renege on any deal and will backstab everyone eventually. He can't grasp the concept of mutual benefit and so will try to bail on any deal that seems to please the other side. The entire concept of Trump improving the Korea situation in the long run by involving himself in it is the purest fantasy for babies. This is a motherfucker who can't get along with CANADA. this. he got played and the media is showing he got played and i am sure alot of his advisors including bolton and GOP dickheads are telling him that too. doesnt help that he also has no credibility. at best this will "reset" the clock back to quieter level.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:33
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Sinteres posted:I just don't see where you go from here. Like if they couldn't come to any kind of agreement with the urgency of a looming head of state meeting, which is the biggest gun in the diplomatic arsenal, what's going to get them to yes now? They never even agreed on what the definition of denuclearization is, much less any kind of process for getting there. It needed to "start big" because the impasse is just that large, and honestly, the US has to make a show to South Korea that it is still willing to consider their needs. Otherwise, it would have been dragged down into nothing and while I guess the Democrats might be cool with that...it maybe isn't the best course of action.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:38
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https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/1006604651922448384
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Jun 12, 2018 21:38
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Worth it for this alone.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:39
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Ardennes posted:It needed to "start big" because the impasse is just that large, and honestly, the US has to make a show to South Korea that it is still willing to consider their needs. Otherwise, it would have been dragged down into nothing and while I guess the Democrats might be cool with that...it maybe isn't the best course of action. And they showed they considered SK by unilaterally cancelling the joint exercise without consultation of or informing SK, such that China knew of it before SK? And they considered he needs of SK be unilaterally negotiating with NK without a representative of SK present?
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Jun 12, 2018 21:42
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Saying that Trump got played is just dumb. Trump wanted a photo op to take home and show off in order to claim success just as much as Kim Jong-Un did.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:54
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mystes posted:Saying that Trump got played is just dumb. Trump went on VOA which gets broadcast to NK and said that Kim was a great leader. If you have an unauthorized radio set and are even listening to VOA I can’t even imagine what damage is being done.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:02
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Vladimir Putin posted:Trump went on VOA which gets broadcast to NK and said that Kim was a great leader. If you have an unauthorized radio set and are even listening to VOA I can’t even imagine what damage is being done. Both him and KJU will be perfectly happy to stall for another 2-6 years now.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:11
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mystes posted:I'm not saying he hasn't done damage or that he's necessarily acting in the best interests of the US, but now he gets to come home and say "I solved the North Korea situation, which no other president was able to do." Uh except he didn’t solve the NK situation ?
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Jun 12, 2018 22:12
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Vladimir Putin posted:Uh except he didn’t solve the NK situation ?
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Jun 12, 2018 22:14
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mystes posted:And North Korea didn't solve the US situation. Do you think that's going to stop KJU from declaring success? Yeah but you said Trump can say that he solved the NK situation which nobody thinks is true not even his supporters.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:15
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Vladimir Putin posted:Yeah but you said Trump can say that he solved the NK situation which nobody thinks is true not even his supporters.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:17
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mystes posted:I'm not saying he hasn't done damage or that he's necessarily acting in the best interests of the US, but now he gets to come home and say "I solved the North Korea situation, which no other president was able to do." I dunno stalling for 2-6 years sounds pretty amazing right about now, considering last year NK was doing escalating missile tests and had a more capable nuclear arsenal. Things are looking a bit better now.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:18
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mystes posted:Go on foxnews.com and tell me, is the top article about the summit positive or negative in your parallel universe? I’m not saying whether it’s positive or negative. You said that Trump can have claimed to solve the NK problem. I’m saying that’s not true at all and nobody is really giving him credit for ‘solving the NK problem’. I don’t want to play word games so if what you said was hyperbole or you just misspoke then fine but that’s what I’m saying.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:21
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US liberals becoming frothing war hawks at the first hint of peace simply due to partisan politics is sad, but frankly unsurprising Democrats are every bit as imperialistic as Republicans when it comes to foreign policy
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Jun 12, 2018 22:21
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A Typical Goon posted:US liberals becoming frothing war hawks at the first hint of peace simply due to partisan politics is sad, but frankly unsurprising Literally nobody is calling for war, but by god you'll strawman the poo poo out of it anyway.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:23
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Vladimir Putin posted:I’m not saying whether it’s positive or negative. You said that Trump can have claimed to solve the NK problem. I’m saying that’s not true at all and nobody is really giving him credit for ‘solving the NK problem’. I don’t want to play word games so if what you said was hyperbole or you just misspoke then fine but that’s what I’m saying. it's stupid for trump and his fans to clap their hands together to say 'welp that's that Trump delivered' but that doesn't mean a 'delay' in our warmongering isn't actually a genuine improvement. Sinteres posted:Literally nobody is calling for war, but by god you'll strawman the poo poo out of it anyway. The people who are mad he gave 'legitimacy' to Kim understand the choice is literally between that or war if you actually want to do anything about this situation. There's no third option aside from just 'ignore them again'.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:26
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Vladimir Putin posted:I’m not saying whether it’s positive or negative. You said that Trump can have claimed to solve the NK problem. I’m saying that’s not true at all and nobody is really giving him credit for ‘solving the NK problem’. I don’t want to play word games so if what you said was hyperbole or you just misspoke then fine but that’s what I’m saying. It's ironic since you're the one giving KJU so much credit for getting the photo op, but when it's Trump you suddenly refuse to admit that getting the photo op was what Trump wanted too.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:26
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mystes posted:Fox is saying it's a major breakthrough. If you're saying "a major breakthrough is not the same thing as solving it" then you're the one playing word games. A major breakthrough is not the same as ‘solving it’. No they are not the same thing at all.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:28
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Vladimir Putin posted:A major breakthrough is not the same as ‘solving it’. No they are not the same thing at all.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:30
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sexpig by night posted:The people who are mad he gave 'legitimacy' to Kim understand the choice is literally between that or war if you actually want to do anything about this situation. There's no third option aside from just 'ignore them again'. "There's no third option except the one I just said." A more serious diplomatic engagement was also an option.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:36
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Sinteres posted:Literally nobody is calling for war, but by god you'll strawman the poo poo out of it anyway. Liberals are smarter than republicans in that they’ll couch their desire for military intervention as “solving” the North Korean problem, as if the internal affairs of sovereign countries were something that Americans are entitled to meddle in.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:36
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Peven Stan posted:Liberals are smarter than republicans in that they’ll couch their desire for military intervention as “solving” the North Korean problem, as if the internal affairs of sovereign countries were something that Americans are entitled to meddle in. There's no desire for military intervention against a nuclear armed country that nobody wanted to attack except maaaaaybe Bush before the Iraq War was a miserable failure. Stop making poo poo up.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:38
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Sinteres posted:"There's no third option except the one I just said." A more serious diplomatic engagement was also an option. What would a 'more serious' engagement look like
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Jun 12, 2018 22:40
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Peven Stan posted:Liberals are smarter than republicans in that they’ll couch their desire for military intervention as “solving” the North Korean problem, as if the internal affairs of sovereign countries were something that Americans are entitled to meddle in.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:41
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sexpig by night posted:What would a 'more serious' engagement look like We talked about this earlier, and you were posting then too, so I'm not repeating everything.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:41
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Sinteres posted:We talked about this earlier, and you were posting then too, so I'm not repeating everything. Trump has said from the start removing US troops was a non-starter, so that's not gonna happen. North Korea will never disarm until we pull out so 'get rid of your nukes first then we'll talk' has always been a nicer way to say 'we won't talk'. I agree we should pull out like a good chunk of South Korea wants too, but there hasn't been a president of either party since the war in favor of that so maybe we have to start by tabling that issue and the NK disarmament with it.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:47
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sexpig by night posted:Trump has said from the start removing US troops was a non-starter, so that's not gonna happen. North Korea will never disarm until we pull out so 'get rid of your nukes first then we'll talk' has always been a nicer way to say 'we won't talk'. I agree we should pull out like a good chunk of South Korea wants too, but there hasn't been a president of either party since the war in favor of that so maybe we have to start by tabling that issue and the NK disarmament with it. Staged negotiations that aren't conditioned upon total disarmament or total withdrawal, but phases with verifiable concessions that get every side at least a little bit closer to being happy seem like they'd still be beneficial, if for no other reason than because they might create the groundwork for future progress. I just don't think playing mad libs with nuclear diplomacy where both sides leave the table with different interpretations of what was said, some of which isn't even on paper, is counterproductive to that effort, because it demonstrates and furthers the lack of trust that exists between the two sides (presumably leading to a Trump eruption in a few months when he realizes he isn't getting what he wants) rather than working to remedy it.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:52
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Sinteres posted:Staged negotiations that aren't conditioned upon total disarmament or total withdrawal, but phases with verifiable concessions that get every side at least a little bit closer to being happy seem like they'd still be beneficial, if for no other reason than because they might create the groundwork for future progress. I just don't think playing mad libs with nuclear diplomacy where both sides leave the table with different interpretations of what was said, some of which isn't even on paper, is counterproductive to that effort, because it demonstrates and furthers the lack of trust that exists between the two sides (presumably leading to a Trump eruption in a few months when he realizes he isn't getting what he wants) rather than working to remedy it. what concessions are there to offer beyond the end to the war, which is something Moon has been working to and doesn't really need Trump shoving his dick in?
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Jun 12, 2018 23:02
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sexpig by night posted:what concessions are there to offer beyond the end to the war, which is something Moon has been working to and doesn't really need Trump shoving his dick in? I mean I also said earlier I'd be happy with the US giving South Korea some space to negotiate poo poo on their own, because I do think the rapport Moon has developed with Kim has been useful (and it seems to be what the people living there want), though ideally the US and South Korea would still be coordinating as allies throughout the process. I think before North Korea agreed to dismantle and the US agreed to leave South Korea, there could still be interim steps like a long term nuclear and missile testing freeze, and ideally a nuclear production freeze. Right now the North has been willing to keep things quiet, but formalizing it would still be helpful. We still have things to offer short of total withdrawal too, like limiting exercises or even changing our force posture to be less of a tripwire force on the border while still remaining in the country. I'm not a diplomat who's been working on these issues for his whole life or anything, so maybe there are other opportunities or problems I'm not seeing, but I think our diplomats could come up with better angles to work with than Trump could in a summit that existed more for pageantry than for anything real or lasting, or than the people scrambling to pull poo poo together at the last minute could because they had to stick to his timeline.
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Jun 12, 2018 23:11
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https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1006658867789475842
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Jun 12, 2018 23:24
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WOAH
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Jun 13, 2018 00:10
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