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the word of j.j. mccullough is all the proof you need to see how absolutely loving stupid a position is
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Jun 12, 2018 21:31
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I can appreciate the idea that anything good that violates a narrowly defined idea of how capitalism and production should work needs to be torn down so we can pretend we have a fair playing field but I can't really motivate myself to ruin people's livelihoods for ideology's sake and saving a buck on my grocery store bill for an inferior product
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Jun 12, 2018 21:33
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infernal machines posted:*This gets fuzzy because the whole "use an app" thing is in place of street hails I think it’s in place of calling the cab company (or using the cab company’s app). certainly I didn’t used to walk 10 mins to a taxi stand before, I made a phone call to have the car pick me up at home or work or a restaurant. if I’m near a major taxi route I’ll try to hail for a few minutes so I can indulge my nostalgia
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Jun 12, 2018 21:33
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fair enough, I've always just walked out and flagged someone down, my experience is clearly not representative.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:36
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casting the whole debate in psuedo-left wing terms is a nice touch but it does reveal the lack of serious economic arguments the right have concerning supply side management. they exist, but for some reason these days they don't want to use them. trump could very easily carve out supply side managed dairy for his own country if he wanted to, but can't. tariffs in of themselves are perhaps the worst form of protectionism out there, and I would hope that any leftist politician that wants to engage in similar politics (as sanders also leaned towards anti-free trade rhetoric) would engage in serious government investment and allowing supply side management in the industries of concern along with any necessary tariffs. Dreylad has issued a correction as of 21:40 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 21:36
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I bet you guys are really supportive of low stumpage fees to protect good Canadian jobs
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Jun 12, 2018 21:43
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Dreylad posted:casting the whole debate in psuedo-left wing terms is a nice touch but it does reveal the lack of serious economic arguments the right have concerning supply side management. they exist, but for some reason these days they don't want to use them. thats interesting. yea, Bernie Sanders has called for protectionism before only to protect the interests of the workers. He also wants to socialize a lot of industries and he's probably the most left leaning politician in the US which isn't saying much about our lovely political system right now. I think its just personally so hilarious to me that Trump is a manchild who is lashing out because of the Steel tariff that a retaliatory tariff on Dairy is literally hurting US where it is, like its a huge weak point to target. Like some people haven't grasped yet how big of a 'gently caress you' it is.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:45
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so the question is “why do we have more dairy farmers than the market can support?” one response is that it’s in our collective interest to have excess milk capacity. I think that’s a stretch of the food security argument, at best. but maybe it’s just that a lot of people who want to be dairy farmers, and we should all pay to let them do that. there are limited slots for people to become doctors, so there’s precedent for non-market-based restrictions on professions that people would like to have. there are similarly not an infinite number of teaching jobs, or librarianships. does “dairy farmer” as an avocation make sense to support at whatever scale there is interest? would a “race to the top” create a viable system in which everyone can have their parents’ jobs? another option is simply that we already have this number of milk farmers and what do we do with them? for that, I think social support and/or retraining for the current generation of farmers would make sense and likely be affordable. if the farms as assets are valuable, then even less support might be required
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Jun 12, 2018 21:53
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Dairy Tariff posted:yea, Bernie Sanders has called for protectionism before only to protect the interests of the workers. He also wants to socialize a lot of industries and he's probably the most left leaning politician in the US which isn't saying much about our lovely political system right now. I think its just personally so hilarious to me that Trump is a manchild who is lashing out because of the Steel tariff that a retaliatory tariff on Dairy is literally hurting US where it is, like its a huge weak point to target. Like some people haven't grasped yet how big of a 'gently caress you' it is. I know there's quite a few people on the left ambivalent or dismissive of Sanders' protectionism because they don't see how it could possibly work in a world largely engaged in free trade already, although the death of TPP is maybe a sign that not everyone is on board with insane 'free trade' agreements yet. Or "those jobs will never come back" in an age of increasing automation. What it comes down to is the government's willingness to intervene at a level that isn't exactly popular with certain crowds. Even tariffs aren't popular and they're the ones that - at the surface level - inflict pain on people elsewhere, not on your own citizens while supply side, heavy government investment, etc requires carving out space for your protected industry in your national market, which results in winners and losers. We've had this debate before too, over a hundred years ago when the US and Canada were considering a reciprocity treaty in 1911 that led to the collapse of the Liberal government under Laurier.  there's a particular economic/ideological impulse that makes things like tariffs and supply side management anathema to people because they seem to betray the very logic of capitalism, when in reality they just have completely different goals. also user name/post combo etc
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Jun 12, 2018 21:56
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Subjunctive posted:another option is simply that we already have this number of milk farmers and what do we do with them? for that, I think social support and/or retraining for the current generation of farmers would make sense and likely be affordable. if the farms as assets are valuable, then even less support might be required well there's a few things going on. the average age of a farmer in canada is 55, so retraining may not really be something that is really feasible, plus you need to be able to sell off your sizable investment in dairy if you're already committed and transition into some other kind of farming that doesn't have the same protections from boom and bust that has dominated agriculture since time immemorial. farms as assets are valuable but unfortunately they're mostly valuable as land for house development, especially our most productive farmland that tends to be close to urban centres. yes farmers need a way to retire but we also need to protect what farmland we have left, which I would argue means that we need more government support. friends who have gotten into farming have expressed frustration with the way dairy is run, and how difficult it is to get involved and have a mixed farm that includes dairy. I get the pitfalls of the system from the producer side of things, but I don't think dismantling the whole thing part and parcel is the way to go. Dreylad has issued a correction as of 22:05 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 22:02
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I mean technically farmers are paper millionaires, in the same way that everyone that owns a structure in Vancouver is a millionaire
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Jun 12, 2018 22:15
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I don’t share the belief that farmland qua farmland is something we need to protect, especially near expanding population centres, but I understand the argument. if the average age is 55, then maybe this is a problem that solves itself over the next 20 years. or are people’s kids waiting to inherit and then become farmers?
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Jun 12, 2018 22:18
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DariusLikewise posted:I mean technically farmers are paper millionaires, in the same way that everyone that owns a structure in Vancouver is a millionaire everyone who owns one outright, you mean I don’t think most people would have trouble unloading a SFH in Vancouver right now
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Jun 12, 2018 22:19
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Dinosaurtrain posted:pretty much. why should dairy farmers get to drive around in massive lifted trucks and make shitloads of money on the capital appreciation of their farmland while receiving protections no one else paying taxes can enjoy lol
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Jun 12, 2018 22:23
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A cow in every barn, a milk hole in every yard
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Jun 12, 2018 22:24
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Subjunctive posted:I don’t share the belief that farmland qua farmland is something we need to protect, especially near expanding population centres, but I understand the argument. I wish I could persuade you on the former, we can't simply create more farmland, once it's gone it's gone. Yeah I think the problem does solve itself, although kids can't sit around and wait to inherit to become farmers and end up doing other stuff. A lot of young farmers can't afford land and so end up being tenant farmers, which is why a lot of people stay small and only use about 4 acres at most growing organic produce and selling it via local markets and
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Jun 12, 2018 22:26
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get rid of 90% of ur cow farms and turn them into nature reserves to combat global warming
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Jun 12, 2018 22:27
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Dreylad posted:that's extremely hard to believe. Well it was also the early to mid 90s too, now folks appreciate small batch hand made artisinal cheese from the butts of civets so I'm sure its changed. IIRC it was the cheese counter at Amir's deli in Ann Arbor. big ole block of Black Diamond. The fact it wasn't yellow probably spoke to its quality
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Jun 12, 2018 22:31
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Agean90 posted:get rid of 90% of ur cow farms and turn them into nature reserves to combat global warming global warming gonna run us the gently caress over regardless, I don't want to have to clear brush in like florida humidity.
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Jun 12, 2018 22:34
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ford.. like,.... unironically gonna be the next pm like, if trudeau pisses off quebeck enough which is why the dairy tarriffs gotta stay (all milk in canada is owned by a cartel in quebeck) dairy tarrifs staying for treudeau's political livelyhood (if they stop, trudeau loses w/o a question) means prob a real trade war which means poo poo gonna get bad in like, ontario, which means populisms
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Jun 12, 2018 23:15
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Dreylad posted:I can appreciate the idea that anything good that violates a narrowly defined idea of how capitalism and production should work needs to be torn down so we can pretend we have a fair playing field but I can't really motivate myself to ruin people's livelihoods for ideology's sake and saving a buck on my grocery store bill for an inferior product  I appreciate not having food systems vulnerable to systemic shock but maybe all y'all ubermensch and captains of industry out there feel different. Guest2553 has issued a correction as of 00:01 on Jun 13, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 23:43
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lol at this entire discussion considering the alternative opposed to our supply management is the US and they subsidize their dairy just as much as we do, they just structure it differently. so from a consumer perspective instead of paying a higher price for dairy in grocery stores, instead you pay low prices in stores but then a decent chunk of tax revenue just gets funneled through the US government and given back to dairy farmers anyway, except somehow in their system all the small dairy farmers go bankrupt and kill themselves and also the dairy is all garbage i'll take our system over that one
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Jun 12, 2018 23:54
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jj is a compass that always points south
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Jun 12, 2018 23:55
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Dreylad posted:I wish I could persuade you on the former, we can't simply create more farmland, once it's gone it's gone. dude, I’ve played Civ. modern engineering can create farmland in downtown Vancouver if we want it badly enough
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Jun 12, 2018 23:56
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unironically bulldoze all of vancouver into farmland preferrably before anyone has time to evacuate
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Jun 13, 2018 00:18
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Subjunctive posted:dude, I’ve played Civ. modern engineering can create farmland in downtown Vancouver if we want it badly enough put your shoulder to the wheel
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Jun 13, 2018 00:38
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Dinosaurtrain posted:unironically bulldoze all of vancouver into farmland preferrably before anyone has time to evacuate be the canadian killdozer you want
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Jun 13, 2018 13:48
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lol canadians don't have the imagination or innovation to be so disruptive to build an armoved killdozer
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Jun 13, 2018 13:57
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maybe a GT Sno Racer with a gardening spade lashed to the front
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Jun 13, 2018 13:58
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lol at all yall lurkers who show up in bursts of canadian nonsense
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Jun 13, 2018 14:01
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yall are children
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Jun 13, 2018 14:01
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What's the matter Baloogan not getting enough feedback on your terrible posting in the trump threads anymore
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Jun 13, 2018 14:03
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get involved, and by that i mean, phone your MP with your pet issues let them know you want socialized whatever-the-fucks posting itt doesn't matter even if yo dumb as gently caress your MP is gonna care about your idiocy be polite, respectful, call him or her the most respectful title you can (respect makes the world go around) "minister"
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Jun 13, 2018 14:04
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Reince Penis posted:What's the matter Baloogan not getting enough feedback on your terrible posting in the trump threads anymore getting too much lol
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Jun 13, 2018 14:04
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Take your meds Baloogan then maybe wear the hat you loving tease
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Jun 13, 2018 14:04
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i phoned my MP sober and talked quite a bit and came away with like the bleif that this mode of governance actually makes sense
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Jun 13, 2018 14:05
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Reince Penis posted:Take your meds Baloogan then maybe wear the hat you loving tease lol are you angry that doug ford won? ive never in my life seen a shirnk
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Jun 13, 2018 14:06
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duder canada is a wide as gently caress nation, filled with everyone from great cnadians like me and poo poo canadians like you
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Jun 13, 2018 14:06
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god forbit someone get drunk and post poo poo on the *internet* obviously this indicates mental illenss
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Jun 13, 2018 14:07
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lol triggered much
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Jun 13, 2018 14:08
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