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TheBigAristotle posted:I feel your pain but when your opponent is Daisy-chaining models in his high-count unit 15 inches behind the combat it gets tiresome This was something I was also going to ask about. The whole conga-lining thing seems to be bullshit of the highest order. I saw a game recently where an ork player had conga-lined a huge squad of boys back around a corner to within an inch of a painboy and somehow the bulk of the squad that was almost 20” away still were able to benefit from being “near” to the painboy. I get that it obeys the letter of the the law, but it doesn’t really seem to be what the designers had in mind when they wrote the rules.
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Jun 13, 2018 05:28
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Gunder posted:I get that it obeys the letter of the the law, but it doesn’t really seem to be what the designers had in mind when they wrote the rules. hi welcome to games workshop enjoy your stay
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Jun 13, 2018 05:34
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Safety Factor posted:I still can't believe we're going legit this year after the makeshift crystal caverns of 2018. Im more surprised that with as many pictures as people were taking, we saw none of them on the internet.
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Jun 13, 2018 05:41
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I wonder how much it would change in that regard if the requirement for cohesion was each model had to be within 2" of two other models in the unit? Or even a scaling measure, like for every 10 models in a unit, each model has to be within 2" of an additional model to maintain cohesion" (2 at 20+, 3 at 30+, etc)
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Jun 13, 2018 05:44
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Hencoe posted:Im more surprised that with as many pictures as people were taking, we saw none of them on the internet.  *insert LGT joke here*
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Jun 13, 2018 05:53
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TheBigAristotle posted:Yet for some reason when choosing who was killed, you can select the person furthest back, despite being out of attack range Can you do the same when shooting and part of a unit is either out of range or without line-of-sight?
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Jun 13, 2018 05:55
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Duct Tape posted:Can you do the same when shooting and part of a unit is either out of range or without line-of-sight? Yes, the controlling player can select whatever model they want to take the wound, regardless of range or line of sight.
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Jun 13, 2018 05:59
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Duct Tape posted:Can you do the same when shooting and part of a unit is either out of range or without line-of-sight? To add to what booley said, this may make you wonder if you can remove models such that the enemy can no longer see you and thus no longer continue shooting. But the enemy unit shooting it is basically doing it simultaneously, and it doesn't matter where you allocate them, you still have to allocate all of them. Edit: To add an example, if one Ork Boy sticks out around a corner, you can hit him with 60 shots and all his unit pretty much dies.
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Jun 13, 2018 06:36
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Gunder posted:This was something I was also going to ask about. The whole conga-lining thing seems to be bullshit of the highest order. I saw a game recently where an ork player had conga-lined a huge squad of boys back around a corner to within an inch of a painboy and somehow the bulk of the squad that was almost 20” away still were able to benefit from being “near” to the painboy. I get that it obeys the letter of the the law, but it doesn’t really seem to be what the designers had in mind when they wrote the rules. This is one of the drawbacks to a simplified system, and it's not that big of one. It'd probably be easiest to fix by making most auras "models within x inches" rather than units.
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Jun 13, 2018 06:40
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The simplifications/abstractions are kinda weird if you think too much about it, but they're also the reason it doesn't take 6 hours to play a 1000 point game. Conga-lining used to be much worse. Imperial guard snaking a single line of dudes literally across the entire 6x4 table  At Least I don't see it a ton, outside a couple of situations (such as pain boy), since the individual models still need line of sight and/or "within an inch of, within an inch" to shoot/fight.
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Jun 13, 2018 07:26
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Yeah the only really bad conga lining you t3nd to see is Ork Boyz/Plaguebearers, where their strategy to win the game is mostly about not interacting with it and camping objectives.
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Jun 13, 2018 07:31
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Same deal happens with a unit of Venomthropes (or whatever it is that has -1 to hit bubble) Then the entire tyranid swarm runs up the table with conga line tails of gaunts back to them, and suddenly the a small unit is conferring the bonus to 2/3rds of their army.
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Jun 13, 2018 07:31
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Aren't there some auras that specify models not units? Would be cool if they were consistent.
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Jun 13, 2018 07:33
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Had a fun game last night, no pics sorry. My new Admech list, lol the robots, and three Armigers. Only draw back was playing against bloody Raven Guard again. Despite that I pretty much either shot him off the board or kept him totally hemmed in his deployment , scared of advancing jnto the fire power of 4 robots. Ended my first league game with opponent conceding turn 4 and me 13-8 up. Nice opponent. Yet another thirty something dude who hasn’t played 40k since 2nd /3rd edition. Good times.
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Jun 13, 2018 07:58
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at this point someone with a non space marine faction saying they played against and beat a space marine army seems redundant. all anyone has to say is they played against space marines and we can just assume the rest
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Jun 13, 2018 08:16
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Gunder posted:This was something I was also going to ask about. The whole conga-lining thing seems to be bullshit of the highest order. I saw a game recently where an ork player had conga-lined a huge squad of boys back around a corner to within an inch of a painboy and somehow the bulk of the squad that was almost 20” away still were able to benefit from being “near” to the painboy. I get that it obeys the letter of the the law, but it doesn’t really seem to be what the designers had in mind when they wrote the rules. It’s intended. There’s lots of auras that specify models or units wholly within X”. You can just snipe Ork HQs with not too much difficulty. Unless your army doesn’t have snipers (so Chaos). Orks don’t have much access to invulns either so you’ll eventually get them down with enough AP. Corrode posted:Yeah the only really bad conga lining you t3nd to see is Ork Boyz/Plaguebearers, where their strategy to win the game is mostly about not interacting with it and camping objectives. Surely the objectives are the game? Conga lining is cool and good. Slow playing is lame though. Very Unorky. The answer to Orks is always more assault cannons. People might think these abstractions are weird, but they speed up the game and avoid lame situations where you effectively break out of combat due to all your models in the front dying before they can pile in. Ultimately everything is bound by unit cohesion, and a unit can only control one objective.
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Jun 13, 2018 08:16
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Naramyth posted:S tier Tau definitely deserve A status given some large events won by Tau players, Bobby G hasn’t won a tournament since Fire Raptors got a price increase.
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Jun 13, 2018 08:55
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Re: cohesion, I'd like to try Warmahorde's system where the squad just needs to be within X" of the squad leader to be cohesive. That or even the Star Wars Legion where you only measure movement from the squad leader, and once you've moved them set up the rest of the squad within X" of them. The current daisy-chaining just seems to lead to bad times, where Fire Warriors, Boyz and Cultists naturally form tendrils snaking across the battlefield from the place where their buff hqs lurk.
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Jun 13, 2018 09:15
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Milotic posted:Surely the objectives are the game? Conga lining is cool and good. Slow playing is lame though. Very Unorky. The answer to Orks is always more assault cannons. Yes and no. Playing the mission is definitely the best way to play, and designing an army which maximises your ability to win the mission is Tournament 101. That said, there's two actually two different topics here, depending which faction is being talked about. Plaguebearer spam is archetypal of a particular kind of build which is designed around minimising kill points and maximising scoring progressive objectives. You put down a hundred cheap dudes with invulns, Disgustingly Resilient, decent Toughness and stackable negatives to hit, and you spread out across as many objectives as possible, and then you wait. Every turn you score 4-6pts from objectives alone, more if you're playing ETC style and have Maelstrom scoring too. This is what plays into the conga line thing. You have enough dudes that with the right objective deployment you can comfortably control 4 objectives at once with a single squad, and you probably have 1 or 2 squads backing that up. Your opponent will have a hard time shooting you off them, because your key squad should be -2 to hit, T4 5++ 5+++ with the flag so that on a Morale check you have a good chance of getting D6 guys back again. If they get into combat, great! Your tough dudes don't die, and if they do then you just pick out one of the guys who's hanging out not doing anything. Also, since most tough combat units aren't obsec, and you are, you don't even need that many dudes per objective. If something genuinely scary comes along, well, that's what Daemon Princes are for. And that's basically it. There's different spins on it with having Daemon Princes in there, or Obliterators, or a Bloodletter bomb, or whatever, but basically the idea is to have a low number of possible kill points, and maximum capacity to score objectives, and not much else. It's definitely a well-designed army, but I think most people playing 40k expect there to be some element of trying to kill each other involved, and PB spam doesn't care about that. It's capable of it because PBs are actually pretty decent in combat, especially if you can stack some of the Epidemius tally stuff on them, but it doesn't have to. There's a couple of places where this comes down to how tournaments are constructed, particularly the preference for progressive scoring and kill point missions (and often combining the two) which is in vogue right now. Personally I think unit sizes in general are a problem, and that only very limited stuff should be able to go above 20 models. PBs would be a lot more manageable if they were capped at 20 and the bonus was for having 12+ of them, and they didn't actively want to take Morale checks because the chance of losing dudes is often worse than the chance of regaining them. The other side of this particular coin is Orks. So similarly the Ork army is about taking huge squads of dudes and camping objectives. Unlike the PB list though which is actually a good army and will happily play you to turn 7 if it has to, the Orks are based around doooooing everyyyyyyything slooooooowly so that by the time the round ends it's turn 2 and you, the opponent, have physically not had time to try and remove all the Boyz. It's less "the Ork player is playing the objectives" than "the Ork player is deliberately choking the life out of the game to get a technical victory." This is "not interacting with the game" by simply not playing it, in a kind of Zen master approach to 40k - the only winning move is not to move at all.
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Jun 13, 2018 09:22
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Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:at this point someone with a non space marine faction saying they played against and beat a space marine army seems redundant. all anyone has to say is they played against space marines and we can just assume the rest Yeah but I'm a poo poo player so will take any win I can. Plus I did my best to self sabotage for three turns by forgetting I had 72 shots and not 36 with my robots. Oh and that my Vanguards ignore cover.
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Jun 13, 2018 09:32
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Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:at this point someone with a non space marine faction saying they played against and beat a space marine army seems redundant. all anyone has to say is they played against space marines and we can just assume the rest Open War helps.
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Jun 13, 2018 12:52
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Rock Paper Shotgun reviewed the new Deathwing Enhanced Edition. Verdict is: not terrible, but not actually good. The game's technical performance has greatly improved. Many major problems remain including terrible AI, both friendly and enemy, and that the weapons are mostly unsatisfying to actually use.
Maneck fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Jun 13, 2018 |
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Jun 13, 2018 13:27
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Open War helps. I may be alone in this, but I cannot stand open war cards at anything more than 750 or 1000 points. They seem way too likely to nerf one army or the other to the point that the game isn't competitive anymore. It's OK if you're playing hour long games and have time to laugh at shenanigans, less so if you're playing a 2 and a half to 3 hour game and want both sides to have a chance to win.
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Jun 13, 2018 13:33
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mango sentinel posted:Aren't there some auras that specify models not units? Would be cool if they were consistent. Trouble is that they can't always be consistent. For example you can only have hit modifiers on whole units, so things like Venomthropes can't work on individual models. I wonder what effect it would have if they just upped the range on most aura abilities and said the whole unit has to be in range to be affected.
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Jun 13, 2018 13:38
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Booley posted:I may be alone in this, but I cannot stand open war cards at anything more than 750 or 1000 points. They seem way too likely to nerf one army or the other to the point that the game isn't competitive anymore. It's OK if you're playing hour long games and have time to laugh at shenanigans, less so if you're playing a 2 and a half to 3 hour game and want both sides to have a chance to win. Yeah the one time someone pulled out Open War we pulled a deployment with me in the middle with Guard surrounded on all sides by Tyranids. I just looked at him and he was like 'yeah ok, maybe we'll just play something else.'
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Jun 13, 2018 13:38
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Booley posted:I may be alone in this, but I cannot stand open war cards at anything more than 750 or 1000 points. They seem way too likely to nerf one army or the other to the point that the game isn't competitive anymore. It's OK if you're playing hour long games and have time to laugh at shenanigans, less so if you're playing a 2 and a half to 3 hour game and want both sides to have a chance to win. The few times I tried them at the suggestion of the other players I flat-out refused to play the first few draws we did each time because they benefited me so greatly it wasn’t interesting to continue. Like you say they’re fun for non-serious small games but I wouldn’t consider them for even a hint of competitive gaming.
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Jun 13, 2018 13:39
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Maneck posted:Rock Paper Shotgun reviewed the new Deathwing Enhanced Edition. Verdict is: not terrible, but not actually good. The game's technical performance has greatly improved. Many major problems remain including terrible AI, both friendly and enemy, and that the weapons are mostly unsatisfying to actually use. Yeah, it's still a boring piece of poo poo.
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Jun 13, 2018 13:42
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Booley posted:I may be alone in this, but I cannot stand open war cards at anything more than 750 or 1000 points. They seem way too likely to nerf one army or the other to the point that the game isn't competitive anymore. It's OK if you're playing hour long games and have time to laugh at shenanigans, less so if you're playing a 2 and a half to 3 hour game and want both sides to have a chance to win. PierreTheMime posted:The few times I tried them at the suggestion of the other players I flat-out refused to play the first few draws we did each time because they benefited me so greatly it wasn’t interesting to continue. Like you say they’re fun for non-serious small games but I wouldn’t consider them for even a hint of competitive gaming. The way we've solved this is by drawing 3 cards at every step and having players alternate choosing one card to get rid of.
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Jun 13, 2018 13:52
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TheChirurgeon posted:The way we've solved this is by drawing 3 cards at every step and having players alternate choosing one card to get rid of. We do that and it works reasonably well
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Jun 13, 2018 14:09
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TheChirurgeon posted:The way we've solved this is by drawing 3 cards at every step and having players alternate choosing one card to get rid of. That sounds like a good solution. My local meta is fairly non competitive and my first few games were with open war but since we mostly play 1500 and 2k, I agree with Boolwy. I mostly play Maelstrom from Chapter approved because I like the randomness but it's less whacky than open war.
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Jun 13, 2018 14:16
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All the CA missions except the 'divide into 3rds' ones are good.
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Jun 13, 2018 14:36
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Yup, the Open War stuff just feel to random to me. I've been playing Chapter Approved missions consistently since it came out and am really like basically all of them.
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Jun 13, 2018 14:40
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Booley posted:I may be alone in this, but I cannot stand open war cards at anything more than 750 or 1000 points. They seem way too likely to nerf one army or the other to the point that the game isn't competitive anymore. It's OK if you're playing hour long games and have time to laugh at shenanigans, less so if you're playing a 2 and a half to 3 hour game and want both sides to have a chance to win. I played against Space Wolves the other day and he drew a card that makes weapons useless outside of 12"... He looked at the card and was like "yeah, we're not playing this"
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Jun 13, 2018 14:51
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I really like the Star Wars legion squad movement (though the bendy movement stick is completely lame and stupid for infantry imho). Not quite sure how it'd interact with the rest the 40k rules, but it's so simple, intuitive and most importantly fast as hell, to just move one dude, and the rest have to be around him within a couple of inches - literally impossible for 40 man squads though and it seems a little gamey to scoot the normal guys as far forward as possible and so on, but so is 40k movement, so whatever.
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Jun 13, 2018 14:58
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I mean, we already kinda do that in most of our games. Move a few of the dudes up front, then just eyeball the rest.
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Jun 13, 2018 15:23
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Revelation 2-13 posted:I really like the Star Wars legion squad movement (though the bendy movement stick is completely lame and stupid for infantry imho). Not quite sure how it'd interact with the rest the 40k rules, but it's so simple, intuitive and most importantly fast as hell, to just move one dude, and the rest have to be around him within a couple of inches - literally impossible for 40 man squads though and it seems a little gamey to scoot the normal guys as far forward as possible and so on, but so is 40k movement, so whatever. I think they should do this and to make the radius easier to measure, bring back templates. But only for this. Not for blast weapons.
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Jun 13, 2018 15:43
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Booley posted:They seem way too likely to nerf one army or the other to the point that the game isn't competitive anymore. That's why Open War helps Space Marine armies so much.
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Jun 13, 2018 16:23
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Corrode posted:Yeah the one time someone pulled out Open War we pulled a deployment with me in the middle with Guard surrounded on all sides by Tyranids. I just looked at him and he was like 'yeah ok, maybe we'll just play something else.' This sounds cool as hell, though I don't think the Open War cards are a good fit if you want to play a symmetrical game. If that's what you're angling for, there are already two dozen missions in the rulebook/CA that can scratch that itch. I like Open War (with the three-card cutdown caveat) as a way to quickly build challenging scenarios. I'm also a big fan of the sudden death lopsided battles, though--sometimes playing an uphill battle can be a lot of fun.
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Jun 13, 2018 16:28
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:That's why Open War helps Space Marine armies so much. Unless you are Dark Angels and draw the card saying everything over 12" is -1 to hit. Plasma was super fun to use that game. 
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Jun 13, 2018 16:32
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TheChirurgeon posted:This sounds cool as hell, though It's 100% a cool narrative scenario if you've both turned up ready to play that - the battle report in this month's WD is basically what I described substituting Orks for Tyranids, and it sounds like a really fun, flavourful narrative game. It's absolutely a scenario I'd be up for playing where you can build the armies around the narrative and set the win conditions accordingly. In our situation it just meant that his masses of hellishly fast or deep striking poo poo was going to surround me and tie up all my stuff with no defence, and I didn't need to waste 2 1/2 hours of my life playing that out to know what the outcome was going to be.
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Jun 13, 2018 16:33
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