|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:It’s always kinda weird when I have to explain the Star Wars films to fans. Dude, you don't have to explain anything to me. I get it. Emporer Leia loves the Empire, that's why she's always killing imperial troops with her own imperial troops, whom she hates with a passion that defines her character. We're just gonna have to agree to agree because we are totally in sync on this one.
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 06:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 09:22 |
|
|
Leia believes that the Empire is a different entity than the Republic - or, rather, that the Republic was an entity that was not doomed to transform into the Empire. There's room for disagreement on that issue.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 06:08
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:Leia believes that the Empire is a different entity than the Republic - or, rather, that the Republic was an entity that was not doomed to transform into the Empire. No, not really. Leia’s specific issue with the Principate system is that one particular senator has too much power. She’s specifically trying to gradually reduce Palpatine’s power over the rest of the Senate and (in the broader context of the series) restore things to roughly the way they were at the end of the Clone Wars. Leia is not in support of any major change, because she’s a fuckin princess. The Senate is made up of the wealthy. Most of the damage she does is accidental.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 06:47
|
|
|
A while ago, it was stated, possibly by SMG, that Nute Gunray and the rest of the Separatist leadership, save Count Dooku, are essentially libertarian. It was also stated by SMG that Star Wars fans are also essentially libertarian. Of all the factions in all the various Star Wars, it seems that the Separatists are the least popular among the fans. I'd like to hear the reasoning for this discrepancy, to further my own understanding.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 07:15
|
|
|
Counteresperanto posted:A while ago, it was stated, possibly by SMG, that Nute Gunray and the rest of the Separatist leadership, save Count Dooku, are essentially libertarian. Star Wars fans are predominately liberal, and they are okay with libertarians and feudalists so long as they are ‘on our side’. Dooku is a feudalist who opposed the liberal Republic, so he’s a bad guy. Leia is a feudalist who stands for pretty much the exact same things, but she’s an ally of the liberal New Republic and therefore a good guy. Under this same logic, Lando is a good libertarian, while Nute Gunray is a bad libertarian.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 07:31
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:No, not really. Right, but my point was that she thinks that the situation she wants to return to is qualitatively different from the present situation. Otherwise it would be the contradiction of the thing she was trying to destroy and the thing she was trying to create being the same thing according to her own perception. There's no contradiction, despite what PostNouveau was asking about. The character distinguishes between the government before the Supreme Chancellor declared himself Emperor, and the government after. This is not obviously true: as you have demonstrated it's very straightforward to think of those conditions as continuous and of the same essence. Leia herself never personally experienced the pre-Imperial period, and she was raised by the person who was the runner-up in the last election Palpatine won. So she's got plenty of opportunity to mythologize that past. Counteresperanto posted:A while ago, it was stated, possibly by SMG, that Nute Gunray and the rest of the Separatist leadership, save Count Dooku, are essentially libertarian. It's natural for people to have a negative response to a caricature of an attribute they identify with.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 07:32
|
|
|
Counteresperanto posted:A while ago, it was stated, possibly by SMG, that Nute Gunray and the rest of the Separatist leadership, save Count Dooku, are essentially libertarian. The Trade Federation were the true heroes of the Star Wars, to be honest.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 08:19
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:Right, but my point was that she thinks that the situation she wants to return to is qualitatively different from the present situation. Well yeah, she’s not a cynic. But it’s important to stress that A New Hope is nonetheless about a Krennic-style power-play where Leia uses a shitload of political trickery to sabotage her competitors within the organization (e.g. Tarkin and the other regional governors) and benefit herself. Like even in the opening scene, Leia’s gambit is to claim that they’re a consular ship - which is basically declaring herself a mobile embassy. Leia is brazenly lying because this should make her untouchable. Vader is attacking an embassy. But then Vader outsmarts her by sending a fake distress call, presumably claiming that everyone died in some kind of accident.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 08:20
|
|
|
You're making a lot of assertions unsupported by the text. You've taken a single line where Leia tries to claim senatorial authority as proof of where her true allegiance lies, ignoring the context that the entire scene is her blatantly lying to Vader's face, and he immediately cuts through her bullshit and identifies her - correctly - as a member of the Rebel Alliance. Later on, in the Death Star briefing, the generals discuss the possibility of the rebellion 'gaining support' in the senate - in other words, the rebellion has allies in the senate, but nobody considers them one and the same. Tarkin then announces the senate's disillusion, and it is never mentioned again. One would think that if Leia or the rebellion's goal was the restoration of the pre-Palpatine status quo, they would respond by creating a new senate-in-exile, or at least would discuss the impact of its destruction, yet all the textual evidence is that this power shift doesn't affect the Rebellion's ideology or power base whatsoever. Your argument is unsupported by the text.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 08:43
|
|
|
the part where the rebellion runs around like a headless chicken for three years between a new hope and empire suggests the dissolution of the senate did affect their ideology and power base like, does anyone know what the hell the rebellion are doing on hoth except hiding from the empire? they've basically given up at that point. part of the reason TLJ comes off so badly is that they put the 'rebellion has given up and is hopeless' scene at the end of the movie instead of at the start, and then keeps talking about how good and important hope is
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 09:14
|
|
|
Angry Salami posted:You're making a lot of assertions unsupported by the text. You've taken a single line where Leia tries to claim senatorial authority as proof of where her true allegiance lies, ignoring the context that the entire scene is her blatantly lying to Vader's face, and he immediately cuts through her bullshit and identifies her - correctly - as a member of the Rebel Alliance. You’re misunderstanding. Leia is obviously both a Senator and part of the Rebel Alliance. The question is, however, her motivation for joining the Rebels - and the simple answer there is that it’s advantageous to her as a Senator. Leia’s exclusive goal in the film is to destroy the Death Star, because that would take power away from Tarkin and force Palpatine to become once again reliant on the Senate’s bureaucracy: “How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?” There is zero indication that Leia’s goal was to destroy the entire government. That’s an assumption - like when Aliens fans just assume Ripley wants to destroy the Weyland-Yutani corporation because she’s ‘the good guy’. The truth is that Ripley wants to protect the corporation from greedy Burke and the aliens, hopefully getting a job in the process.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 10:07
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABaU5YYGW0E
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 10:32
|
|
|
Counteresperanto posted:It was also stated by SMG that Star Wars fans are also essentially libertarian. That's exactly what libertarianism is, but it's the exact opposite of what libertarians think libertarianism is.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 14:51
|
|
|
Angry Salami posted:Later on, in the Death Star briefing, the generals discuss the possibility of the rebellion 'gaining support' in the senate - in other words, the rebellion has allies in the senate, but nobody considers them one and the same. Tarkin then announces the senate's disillusion, and it is never mentioned again. One would think that if Leia or the rebellion's goal was the restoration of the pre-Palpatine status quo, they would respond by creating a new senate-in-exile, or at least would discuss the impact of its destruction, yet all the textual evidence is that this power shift doesn't affect the Rebellion's ideology or power base whatsoever. I liked that Rogue One added to this a bit since we see a kinda sorta not officially but really senate in exile in the rebel's leadership being a bunch of other royalty and political folks calling the shots and acting like they're the real deal revolutionaries while still trying to be under the radar and legitimate. It meshes with A New Hope really well because the generals correct in that the senators deciding Palpatine is bad isn't a problem, it's people like Jyn/Leia/etc. that spark off stuff that loudly rallies regular (relatively, I mean it's Star Wars) folks to their cause that would get the senators to openly support the rebellion. Tarkin and Palpatine see it from the top down in terms of a rebellion happening because some senators announce that Palpatine is bad, and therefore dissolving the senate and having the biggest gun will magically end all resistance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 15:40
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:What we see of the Separatists is an industrial hellhole populated by literal drones building other drones, run by petty grifters and a couple stooges who think they're noble and heroic. See also, people hating how incompetently the Jedi are portrayed throughout the prequel trilogy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 15:41
|
|
|
"The Republic is the Empire is the Republic!" is provocative, but should be uncontroversial. SMG et al just recognize that the series is about an internal struggle within one society. (Notwithstanding that it's a very large, far-flung, advanced society, and really a loose confederation that calls itself a Republic sometimes.) Because it's an American movie that features lots of imagery from WWII, people have tended to frame the conflict as multiple nation-states warring with one another. But Episodes 1-6 tell the story of the Republic dealing with a secession movement by becoming an Empire, which is then brought down by a revolutionary movement. Consider the English Civil War, which featured conflicts between parliamentarians and royalists, open warfare, invasions, sackings, persecutions of religion and of entire populations, uneasy regencies, and parliament being dissolved by intrigue or by force multiple times. But almost everyone involved recognized it as an internal struggle.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 15:45
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Star Wars fans are predominately liberal, and they are okay with libertarians and feudalists so long as they are ‘on our side’. Just to add to the conversation: I really don't think you can characterize Gunray as a libertarian. He's a neo-concervative/neo-liberal capitalist. technically, he has state backing even though he doesn't realize it. I don't think Libertarians would use the threat of all-out war to enforce their side of a trade negotiation. Rand, whom a lot of libertarians idolize, was fiercely anti-war. At the 2004 Libertarian convention, a lot of attendees walked out on Neal Boortz, who had used his radio show as a platform to support the Iraq War. Also, getting back to an earlier point, it's funny to think about Leia as someone just trying to get a better job but we know that's not who she is because this is a space opera, not a political thriller. I'd argue that, since she's a princess and a senator, the stakes are high and scale is large from the beginning. We are actually probably correct in believing that she is fighting for a "better" system because that is the archetypal character we are seeing. Whether or not a bureaucracy could ever hold together a galaxy-wide government remains to be seen. What we know from her quote to Vader, about systems slipping through the Empire's grip, is that she's in favor of the Empire losing ground. She doesn't really say that she needs all those systems to follow her form of government. tadashi fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jun 13, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 15:57
|
|
|
tadashi posted:Just to add to the conversation: I really don't think you can characterize Gunray as a libertarian. He's a neo-conervative/neo-liberal capitalist. technically, he has state backing even though he doesn't realize it. I don't think Libertarians would use the threat of all-out war to enforce their side of a trade negotiation. If Naboo didn't want to get blockaded, they should have bought their own droid army! Bootstraps!
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 16:26
|
|
|
tadashi posted:Just to add to the conversation: I really don't think you can characterize Gunray as a libertarian. He's a neo-concervative/neo-liberal capitalist. technically, he has state backing even though he doesn't realize it. I don't think Libertarians would use the threat of all-out war to enforce their side of a trade negotiation. (Ayn Rand argued that modern industrial nations have every right to pillage less developed ones and slaughter their people like animals.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 16:47
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:Every libertarian who actually comes into power behaves like this. Look at Gary Johnson's actual record as governor, for example. I guess I'm not sure about Johnson's record or what Rand said specifically about that. I just know Rand said something about traders and warriors being fundamentally opposed. I get that a lot of US politicians who call themselves libertarian or libertarian leaning have shown that they aren't when it comes to armies and wars.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 16:58
|
|
|
Without getting bound up in ephemera: the Separatists are fighting a war because they think government regulation and monopoly on the use of force is oppression. The Trade Federation proclaims the right for a corporate NGO to create a huge private army and use it as they see fit, carefully arguing that everything they're doing is legal. That's American style libertarianism. (The prequel trilogy kicks off with a corporate army forming a blockade.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 17:06
|
|
|
tadashi posted:Just to add to the conversation: I really don't think you can characterize Gunray as a libertarian. He's a neo-concervative/neo-liberal capitalist. technically, he has state backing even though he doesn't realize it. I don't think Libertarians would use the threat of all-out war to enforce their side of a trade negotiation. Gunray had to be bullied into occupying Naboo and the Successions had reservations up until the Palpatine and Dooku manipulated the Republic to declare war on them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 17:07
|
|
|
New hot take from WaPo. https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1006947687500050432
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 18:29
|
|
|
I mean, like Trump and our nation Palpatine has no real plans or goals beyond making himself the center of everything and his plan only works because all of the checks and institutions in place that would have prevented someone like him from happening are run by at best centrist chucklefucks. I'll allow it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 18:38
|
|
|
Neo Rasa posted:I mean, like Trump and our nation Palpatine has no real plans or goals beyond making himself the center of everything and his plan only works because all of the checks and institutions in place that would have prevented someone like him from happening are run by at best centrist chucklefucks. I'll allow it. His plan was the Revenge of the Sith on the Jedi. The destruction of the Republic, the thing they protected and kept at peace for a thousand years, was just the tool to achieve it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 19:10
|
|
|
Decius posted:His plan was the Revenge of the Sith on the Jedi. The destruction of the Republic, the thing they protected and kept at peace for a thousand years, was just the tool to achieve it. Trump's plan was the destruction of Obama's legacy in response to his humiliation at the hands of Obama at the White House correspondents' dinner. The destruction of our republic is just a tool to help him achieve his goal.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 19:14
|
|
|
tadashi posted:Trump's plan
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 19:25
|
|
|
Shouldn't they have started teasing episode 9 by now?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 20:12
|
|
|
Uncle Wemus posted:Shouldn't they have started teasing episode 9 by now? Boyega did a tweet.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 20:19
|
|
|
Have they even started shooting it yet?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 20:21
|
|
|
Uncle Wemus posted:Shouldn't they have started teasing episode 9 by now? Gotta let the dust settle from Solo bombing
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 20:22
|
|
|
Neo Rasa posted:It meshes with A New Hope really well because the generals correct in that the senators deciding Palpatine is bad isn't a problem, it's people like Jyn/Leia/etc. that spark off stuff that loudly rallies regular (relatively, I mean it's Star Wars) folks to their cause that would get the senators to openly support the rebellion. Tarkin and Palpatine see it from the top down in terms of a rebellion happening because some senators announce that Palpatine is bad, and therefore dissolving the senate and having the biggest gun will magically end all resistance. It’s really more the other way around. The Rebels are specifically dangerous to Palpatine because they’re influencing and empowering the Republican side of the Senate. Palpatine needs the Senate on his side in order to maintain control, otherwise things will just slide back to the usual Republican oligarchy. Once the Death Star is operational, Tarkin specifically blows up Alderaan as a message to the Republican worlds. The Rebels are not enormously dangerous on their own. The base we see at the end of A New Hope is apparently the bulk of their forces. Again, we should go back to Leia’s original plan before things went all unexpectedly crazy. Her mission is simply to help her father, the King of Alderaan, in his struggle against Palpatine. To that end, she is tasked with finding and recruiting Obi Wan, then spreading word of Palpatine’s plans. Leia doesn’t know that Palpatine has already dissolved the Senate, and she doesn’t expect them to find the Rebel base. She’s working to protect the Senate.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 20:34
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:It’s really more the other way around. The Rebels are specifically dangerous to Palpatine because they’re influencing and empowering the Republican side of the Senate. Palpatine needs the Senate on his side in order to maintain control, otherwise things will just slide back to the usual Republican oligarchy. Do you mean her plans at the beginning of ANH? Because she was also planning on delivering the Death Star plans to the Rebellion, hoping they'd find a weakness allowing them to destroy it. In Rogue One, I forget what her original plans were. Probably the Obi-Wan thing. But then I forget why she was at the Battle of Scariff so she could get the plans.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 21:03
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/ComicBookNOW/status/1007049232291950593
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 00:59
|
|
|
Didn't they produce like 30 episodes of that and then Disney threw them right in the garbage?
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 01:27
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:Do you mean her plans at the beginning of ANH? Because she was also planning on delivering the Death Star plans to the Rebellion, hoping they'd find a weakness allowing them to destroy it. That’s later in the film, after Alderaan is destroyed. Of course they would certainly analyze the plans at some point or another, but Leia’s goal at the start of the film is to get Obiwan and the data tapes to the Alderaanian King so that the King can beg for help. Implicitly, the King would present the tapes as evidence of the secret Death Star project to as many potential allies as possible - ultimately turning the Senate against Palpatine. Things go wrong, however, because the weapon is already done, and the Senate is dissolved before Leia and her father can do anything. Then her dad gets blown up.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 01:31
|
|
|
PostNouveau posted:Didn't they produce like 30 episodes of that and then Disney threw them right in the garbage? As I recall, what little we saw of this was insanely horrible.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 01:37
|
|
|
dont even fink about it posted:As I recall, what little we saw of this was insanely horrible. It's likely it just went over your head because you didn't understand all the deep political statements the laser sword cartoon was going for.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 01:57
|
|
|
PostNouveau posted:It's likely it just went over your head because you didn't understand all the deep political statements the laser sword cartoon was going for. You understand movies about as well as Vince Young understood the wonderlic
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 02:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 09:22 |
|
|
DeimosRising posted:You understand movies about as well as Vince Young understood the wonderlic The wonderlic is culturally biased 
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 02:44
|
|