|
KazigluBey posted:I'm dumb as bricks and I always figured that, for example, a 5% increase when the base is 10% is better than when the base is, say, 20%. Because relative to the starting value the first is a 50% bump while the second is 25%. But you're saying that stacking bonuses on top of existing (or big) ones is better than if the unit had nothing (or little) to begin with? By a considerable amount, yeah. It'll reduce the same total amount of damage on both, but since the Chosen is already taking so little, its going to be much more impactful than on a slayer. e: What doesn't help is that some game systems, like Dota 2, calculate resist by something like DamageTaken = BaseDamage * (1 - (armor / (1 + |armor|)) which means that it the percentage gain / total damage reduction per point of armor goes down the more you have, which means the numbers you get are functionally linear. In that case, going from 5 to 10 armor is as significant in terms of doubling your effective health as going from 50 to 100. Trying to parse this simple stuff has left me convinced that there's no such thing as a rational number, and that all numbers are the devils number. Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Jun 13, 2018 |
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 02:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 15:04 |
|
|
KazigluBey posted:I'm dumb as bricks and I always figured that, for example, a 5% increase when the base is 10% is better than when the base is, say, 20%. Because relative to the starting value the first is a 50% bump while the second is 25%. But you're saying that stacking bonuses on top of existing (or big) ones is better than if the unit had nothing (or little) to begin with? It’s a little counter intuitive, so I like to look at the extremes. Take a guy with 10% resist vs a guy with 90% resist. If you give each one 5% more resist, they’re at 15% and 95%. But you don’t actually care about that number, you care about how much damage they’re taking. So the first guy goes from taking 90% damage to 85% damage; not a big change. The second guy however, goes from taking 10% damage to 5% damage; effectively halving the amount of damage he was taking from before. That’s why the percentage boosts favor people with already high stats.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 02:28
|
|
|
I'm going to disagree about your statement regarding 40% settlement income vs 10 armor. Settlement income doesn't include base income from difficulty or income from economy buildings. You'll be lucky to get enough additional income to pay for a single unit of skaven slaves in the early game. Edit: Both options are clearly trash but extra armor is slightly better early game. Since early game is when the game is most challenging, I'd take the armor first. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jun 13, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 02:47
|
|
|
Am I insane, did I accidentally click a setting, or did the update that just dropped murder the UI? The power bar is completely gone, replaced with a helpful graphic showing what faction I'm playing, and the tooltip that pops when I hover over an enemy unit shows nothing substantial. Please tell me this is a problem on my end.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 03:24
|
|
|
I think I get it now, thanks!
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 03:41
|
|
|
KazigluBey posted:I'm dumb as bricks and I always figured that, for example, a 5% increase when the base is 10% is better than when the base is, say, 20%. Because relative to the starting value the first is a 50% bump while the second is 25%. But you're saying that stacking bonuses on top of existing (or big) ones is better than if the unit had nothing (or little) to begin with? Yupp. Going from 0 to 5% damage reduction is a 5% decrease in incoming damage. Going from 90 to 95% is a 50% decrease in incoming damage. Edit: derp new page
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 03:59
|
|
|
You can greatly simplify armor by considering it as average (0.75*armor)% damage reduction.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 04:10
|
|
|
lurksion posted:You can greatly simplify armor by considering it as average (0.75*armor)% damage reduction. Well, almost. The problem is that armor maxes out in value at 100% resist, so no matter how the roll is done, you'd still see diminishing average reduction gains rather than gaining an average of 100% at 133. And also, I believe the roll is between a max of 100 and armor/2, rather than it getting a value between armor and armor/2 and capping it at 100% or whatever. In the former case, your average reduction gains would rise even slower, somewhat (but not at all entirely) mitigating the issue of increasing benefits from extra armor.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 04:29
|
|
|
So Choice & Consequences. I'm thinking of checking it out, but am wondering if it works in the Vortex campaign or only for Mortal Empires? I'm going to assume it is absolutely not compatible with things like skill overhauls, either right?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 04:36
|
|
|
Tiler Kiwi posted:hello, I am tiler, and I wrote an obnoxiously long and unpleasent to read analysis of some of the numbers in this video game, because it was the only way to let me get it out of my system and not clutter a discord chat full of ramblings. please enjoy. Piggybacking what you've said : AP Ratios are important to note because the unit cards are deceptive. Green text saying 'Armor piercing' just means the AP damage exceeds the normal damage. However you could have an 'Armor Piercing' unit do 15 regular/18 armor piercing and this will still be weaker than a unit that brute forces 65 regular damage /0 armor piercing. Generally the ratio of regular to ap fits a pattern for various weapons; swords/axes are nice because they tend to have a fairly balanced ratio. Spears vary, Halberds have more, great weapons have the most, while cudgels have the least. Remember that bonus vs infantry or large has the same ap ratio too, as well as percentage damage boosts. Anything that gives a unit bonus AP damage just straight up boosts it cumulatively, it doesn't just shift the ratio and keep the total the same. Also, all hits always do a minimum of 1 damage, so at some point raw volume (ie Skaven) can produce some surprising results given enough time. Missiles affect units differently. Remember a projectile is 'live' the second it is fired, and is capable of damaging friend enemy and even stuff beyond its minimum or maximum range. Almost all projectiles are affected by gravity so the angle of the projectiles is probably based on its speed. Parabolic projectiles are easier to target close units or over walls but flat trajectory projectiles can more easily hit models behind the intended target. I believe the game tracks ammo on a per model basis so you'll always potentially get a full volley equivalent over the course of the battle. This is easy to observe on units with low ammo like explosive charge Miners. Shields block the front 30 degree arc but the animation is deceptive ;they just hold shields up when shot at regardless of direction, it doesn't mean they are blocking more or that the shields are physically blocking projectiles that contact them. After all, savage orc boar Boyz lack shields but still do the 'blocking' animation with their bare arm! The animation issue is annoying. A unit that fails to get hit in melee doesn't have a unique animation and may indeed still stagger even though they didn't take damage. On the flip side units hold shields up regardless of whether they successfully blocked or not.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 04:46
|
|
|
Devorum posted:So Choice & Consequences. I'm thinking of checking it out, but am wondering if it works in the Vortex campaign or only for Mortal Empires? I'm going to assume it is absolutely not compatible with things like skill overhauls, either right? Not compatible with skill overhauls no. Pretty sure it works fine in vortex campaign. Steel Faith used to be compatible with skill overhauls but Venus is gonna start screwing with skill trees so I doubt that'll last for long.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 04:49
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:Also, all hits always do a minimum of 1 damage
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 05:09
|
|
|
Another thing worth discussing is leadership. Most things that lower leadership do so at flat rates. This means that the research stuff that gives you a piddly +5 leadership is actually pretty good, especially on low tier units. There's only a few things that appear to affect leadership by a percentage, such as damage suffered, army losses, and fatigue so a unit with very high leadership can stay in place for a long time even with a lot of leadership lowering stuff stacked on them. If you mouse over the leadership bar during fights it turns out lords and heros briefly get a ld boost for kills so grinding though chaff can keep their ld high if they are low on HP in close battles. Normally, units engaged in melee seem to get a hidden penalty to movement speed and acceleration, which is how they get 'stuck' in combat. When a unit is routing that penalty vanishes so the unit can actually escape. Collision kind of plays a factor too so routing cavalry and chariots definitely can get bogged down, and flyers need some minimum takeoff distance before they can get airborne again. Skaven being able to quickly pull back and rally many times becomes really good if you can micromanage all the units well,since you can lure strong units away from allies. Encourage aura seems to just grant a flat ld bonus to allies (I assumed it gave them the lord/heroes ld value if higher). Some lords like Khazrak can boost this by quite a lot, massively increasing the ld of Beastmen trash units. Since it's a flat value, that makes units like Longbeards good; all dwarves already have good leadership and boosting it more improves them linearly in this way. Immune to Psychology is mainly good vs undead and beyond that is a little situational. Disciplined seems really useful especially if your lord got sniped early on. Skaven seem to have a variant of this baked in (aside from still being affected by lord death). Stubborn is amazing but random. It's like the reverse of terror; units wavering have a chance to become fearless which can really turn things around. Fearless is actually kind of a mixed bag because fearless units tend to be glass cannons that die pretty quickly. Since they can't rout they also get bogged down really easily but conversely their lack of routing won't trigger chain-routing so weaker units nearby are safer. Expendable is disappointing because non expendable units are still affected by army losses and whatnot. I think it should cause your main force to be COMPLETELY unaffected so you can use them as pure suicide units; on things like squigs this would be a lot of fun.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 05:28
|
|
|
Devorum posted:So Choice & Consequences. I'm thinking of checking it out, but am wondering if it works in the Vortex campaign or only for Mortal Empires? I'm going to assume it is absolutely not compatible with things like skill overhauls, either right? C&C works for the vortex campaign too, and yes, the skill overhauls within C&C are a massive component of it and will not be compatible
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 05:47
|
|
|
Are there any mods to sort out the latest auto-resolve quirk? Sick of having to rebuild all my artillery after every battle.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 09:53
|
|
|
I thought they fixed that too, but then garrisons and rebels started sniping my artillery again as of late and it's loving annoying.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 10:12
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:Expendable is disappointing because non expendable units are still affected by army losses and whatnot. I think it should cause your main force to be COMPLETELY unaffected so you can use them as pure suicide units; on things like squigs this would be a lot of fun. As of WH2 this is the case, at least with some units. Though I think it's labelled "Meat Shield" in that case. Expendable just means that the unit is cheap enough that you may as well throw them away and make new ones.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 14:22
|
|
|
In WH2, expendable doesn't cause morale loss for units when they route through non-expendable units, but will still cause a morale loss via the "army losses" penalty. My thoughts on leadership is that rather than stuff like flanking/casualties or whatnot giving a flat penalty, it should sort of "build up" in a similar way fatigue does. Sid Mier's Gettysburg had it work that way via depicting that loss as "stress". There are a few things that work out that way already. Or at least, the opposite way: losing your general is a big penalty that gradually goes mostly away over time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 14:32
|
|
|
thanks for the insane number write up, this kinda in depth analysis of TW stuff is incredibly and specifically my jam
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 14:52
|
|
|
So today as i was playing Settra, using a startpos mod i made and The Skaven mod i noticed this had happened to Tilea and Estalia. Sooo yeah if you're interested in getting a similar experience on the ME map ive got the packfile here on google drive, can't be bothered to put it up on steam at the moment. Remember that it won't work with any other startpos mods so keep that in mind!
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 15:59
|
|
|
I'm fairly fine with Expendable units still impacting morale via the army losses penalty since your remaining forces are still getting steadily outnumbered. Sure, that unit of Clanrats doesn't remotely care about the life or death of those Skavenslaves, but they probably care a great deal about there suddenly being less bodies on their side of the field to put between themselves and danger. In other news...  "Close Victory" indeed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 16:21
|
|
|
welp it took an hour or so but I got the sword of khaine on grimgor and now im gonna turn ulthuan green! he has 100 melee attack and 1000 damage :0 e: just ran up to an elf lord and chopped her head off in 3 swings. I havent even finished his melee tree yet! he now has 1200 damage, 1000 of which is AP Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Jun 13, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 16:31
|
|
|
nopantsjack posted:welp it took an hour or so but I got the sword of khaine on grimgor and now im gonna turn ulthuan green! he has 100 melee attack and 1000 damage :0 Settra with the sword on his chariot is hilarity incarnate.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 17:37
|
|
|
The fact that halberdiers have expert charge defense in CnC combined with combats in general taking longer makes them extremely useful as your main line infantry as Empire I find. Use the halberdiers to hold the enemy in place and rip them apart with handgunners. I also seem to find pistoliers being quite useful. They are good at skirmishing and drawing off a portion of the enemy to chase after them, but also seem pretty useful for delivering rear and flank charges once a battle has been going for a while. Best employed working in pairs one, so one can always be rear-charging if necessary. Redoing my battle against the VCs that crashed yesterday, my 2 pistoliers got ~250 kills between them, most of it in melee. Also noticed several of the VC units now can tire and break like normal units (vampires, ghouls, that kind of stuff).
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 17:43
|
|
|
Tiler Kiwi posted:In WH2, expendable doesn't cause morale loss for units when they route through non-expendable units, but will still cause a morale loss via the "army losses" penalty. I remember reading somewhere that leadership from casualties did build up with time. Something like casualties in the last few seconds, over the last minute and total casualties to a unit all affect leadership. Which is why a solid artillery hit sometimes plunges a unit’s leadership down, because it gets hit with a big “casualties in the last few seconds” modifier and the normal “hit by artillery” modifier. Found the post: https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/7q9p2y/compiling_leadership_modifiers Interesting stuff, chain routs with things like green skins and skaven probably happen because you can get up to -12 leadership from allies nearby routing, plus another 3/6 if your flank/s aren’t secure. So if a few rout you can get -18 leadership spreading across your army.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 19:21
|
|
|
One of my favorite ways of cheesing sieges in Warhammer is having a caster on a flying mount just do all sorts of disgusting poo poo to an AI that's prone to squeezing troops inside the city and shuffling them around slowly to the point that they get in each other's way, and maybe even taking multiple casters to ensure that Arcane Conduit is there to ensure a steady stream of magic. Even a full stack + garrison building is just magic fodder. My last one was a key battle against the Greenskins (of course) that I needed to win because a Waaagh! was sitting right outside, and long story short Gelt raked in probably a thousand kills through judicious use of Metal magic. Final Transmutation is a terrifying spell. If my Bright Wizards were higher level, I would've been sending Firestorms into the city instead of Golden Hounds, and nowhere else does it shine but in a cramped space where its speed won't be too much of a problem.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 19:57
|
|
|
I continue to be terrible at this game. Thought I’d give Krok Gar a go, but I get wrecked in the first ten turns by multiple stacks of rats. I thought that my sauruses would beat them on quality, but their numbers get crazy extremely quickly? How do I get off the ground in a fresh start Krok vortex campaign?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 20:00
|
|
|
So where are y'all headed for readable video game discussion after Lowtax dies?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 20:25
|
|
|
Lord Koth posted:I'm fairly fine with Expendable units still impacting morale via the army losses penalty since your remaining forces are still getting steadily outnumbered. Sure, that unit of Clanrats doesn't remotely care about the life or death of those Skavenslaves, but they probably care a great deal about there suddenly being less bodies on their side of the field to put between themselves and danger. Real Cool Catfish posted:I remember reading somewhere that leadership from casualties did build up with time. Something like casualties in the last few seconds, over the last minute and total casualties to a unit all affect leadership. Vampire Counts used to be able to stack global leadership penalties on enemy armies to the point that low tier infantry would just Nope the gently caress out and bolt when you got close, and you could have entire armies run away without having to actually deal any damage (this got nerfed obviously). Randarkman posted:The fact that halberdiers have expert charge defense in CnC combined with combats in general taking longer makes them extremely useful as your main line infantry as Empire I find. Use the halberdiers to hold the enemy in place and rip them apart with handgunners. This is a quirk of the overhaul. VC 'monster' units and lords have 'Creatures of the Night' trait which makes them run instead of crumble, though they are still immune to fear and terror. It's actually kind of useful because you can get bats to start flying away from your missile units and just shoot them apart while they flee. Tomb King lords also rout instead of crumble.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 20:40
|
|
|
Cynic Jester posted:Settra with the sword on his chariot is hilarity incarnate. does the chariot deal aoe damage to whoever it goes through based on the sword's damage? if so thats my next campaign decided
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 21:24
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:So where are y'all headed for readable video game discussion after Lowtax dies? Something Awful has, as far as I can tell, the only decent Warhammer 40k community on the entire internet. If this site dies I don't know what I'll do with myself.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 22:14
|
|
|
Did something happen to the taxman besides having his bizarro spine?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 23:11
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Did something happen to the taxman besides having his bizarro spine? His mom has Lukemia and it's really expensive due to lovely health insurance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2018 23:41
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Did something happen to the taxman besides having his bizarro spine? Yeah he's asking for donations again. It's actually very sad this is hitting him all at the same time. It's also very sad that my computer ate my ungrim save.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 01:46
|
|
|
Luminous Cow posted:Yeah he's asking for donations again. It's actually very sad this is hitting him all at the same time. I think we know who is experiencing the real tragedy here
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 01:53
|
|
|
Siets posted:I continue to be terrible at this game. Thought I’d give Krok Gar a go, but I get wrecked in the first ten turns by multiple stacks of rats. I thought that my sauruses would beat them on quality, but their numbers get crazy extremely quickly? How do I get off the ground in a fresh start Krok vortex campaign? e: Also I liked that big math nerd-out awhile ago, it made me realize I'd been heavily over-valuing Attack.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 03:41
|
|
|
Ravenfood posted:Your sauruses do beat them handily. If you attack right off the bat you should be fine. Had me realise that Gelt's bonus works best with Greatswords, Demigrhyps and/or Steam tanks.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 05:52
|
|
|
Do factions fixate on their objective regions, to the detriment of potential allies? I've driven the Greenskins out of the Empire and kicked the Vampires' heads in, taking Sylvania for myself. However, Franz does not seem to want even a non-aggression pact, with the closest I got getting to yellow acceptance but not having enough gold to seal the deal. Could it be because he's prioritized to take Sylvania?
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 20:31
|
|
|
toasterwarrior posted:Do factions fixate on their objective regions, to the detriment of potential allies? I've driven the Greenskins out of the Empire and kicked the Vampires' heads in, taking Sylvania for myself. However, Franz does not seem to want even a non-aggression pact, with the closest I got getting to yellow acceptance but not having enough gold to seal the deal. Could it be because he's prioritized to take Sylvania? if you hover over the acceptance thing it should tell you exactly what he's upset and happy about. if he's not even willing to go for non-aggression you pissed him off somehow.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 20:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 15:04 |
|
|
Low tier undead make for great post battle screens. Even with the crumbling that's 3500 or so actual kills. Good fun. And I know this comes up alot, but lol close victory being broken. Yeah yeah the excuse is that it's supposedly looking at HP loss w/o healing. Think if I didn't drop healing in this one I would have lost maybe another 40-50. So let's be super generous and say 20,000 hp damage (probably ~285 dead at ~70hp per model) out of somewhere around 120,000 = close victory? It's plain broken.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 04:25
|
|