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Che Delilas
Nov 23, 2009
FREE TIBET WEED

Keetron posted:

To top it off, the PO basically told me to ignore all quality gateways to make some artificial deadline because after that we have another artificial deadline to make. The technical debt is growing, the interest we pay on it increases and there is no plan to ever pay it off.

If it weren't for the stuff about git I'd think you worked with me. There have been bugs in a part of our product for the last 6 months because 1) We don't do enough Testing/QA, 2) the clients don't do enough acceptance testing (which we should probably be directing as part of our QA/pre-relase/piloting/etc. process) and 3) the initial "deadline" (of 6 months ago) was utterly arbitrary and didn't give us enough time to do 1) and 2).

Now it's 6 months later and clients want to start using the product and guess what they found the bugs, and since they didn't touch this part of the product with a vaulter's pole until a week ago, they want to go live basically right now and are shrieking at us to fix them. The CEO of my company and a random sampling of upper management has therefore been bullhorning all week about this poo poo, which was not planned work of course and is suddenly the absolute top priority (which is the same priority as the 4 other things we actually planned on doing this sprint). He says things like "the process has to serve us, not the other way around." The process we have is the absolute bare bones amount of testing that we can possibly get away with doing to be ~51% sure that this release will not shatter the entire field, and when he says this crap I want to grab him by the neck and say "A DECADE OF THIS ATTITUDE IS WHY WE CAN BARELY GET ANYTHING DONE ANYMORE."

God, is there any software company on the planet that doesn't throw all safety and diligence into the sewer the instant their smallest customer waves for their attention?

Edit: Also congrats Shirec, get the hell away from that excrescence you call a boss.

Che Delilas fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Jun 13, 2018

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Clanpot Shake
Aug 10, 2006
shake shake!

Space Gopher posted:

One thing to check out before you make a decision: what's the travel situation? Consulting in general can have jobs where your boss texts you on a Saturday saying, "we just landed a contract in Tallahassee, book your flight and hotel and I'll see you Monday." Accenture and other big firms are notorious for this, because they're signing deals everywhere and need bodies to fill them (also, when people are stuck in the middle of nowhere away from home, they don't have anything to do but go back to the hotel room and bill a few more hours).

If you have pets that might need a special sitter, make sure that you can get plenty of advance notice about travel.

Thirding this. My first job out of college was with Accenture, and while all of the contracts I was put on were both local and long-term, I worked with plenty of people coming in from all over the place. Sometimes people would be on the same project for years and basically have a second life, contract location and at home, but more often than not (and especially with the younger people) they'd just put in long hours with no overtime. When I explained that 2 people doing 12 a day was effectively stealing a job from a third person they looked at me like I had a second head. The argument that this behavior was what was screwing up our contract estimates because you usually can only bill 8 hours a day to the client and doing 12 hours of work in 8 hours makes you look a lot more effective than you actually are landed only marginally better.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

New Yorp New Yorp posted:

You could live in Jersey City or Hoboken (or surrounding areas in NJ) and take the PATH or the ferry into lower Manhattan. And that's the ugly, awful part of NJ where the "jersey driver" stereotype was born.
Jersey City is becoming Extremely Millennial right now due to price hikes and transit work pushing out all the people from previously trendy areas like Williamsburg, Greenpoint, and Astoria. Sunnyside is pretty affordable right now too for people looking to stay on the NY side of the border.

Pedestrian Xing
Jul 19, 2007

Keetron posted:

To top it off, the PO basically told me to ignore all quality gateways to make some artificial deadline because after that we have another artificial deadline to make. The technical debt is growing, the interest we pay on it increases and there is no plan to ever pay it off.

~~the Agile way~~ :pcgaming:

e: congrats Shirec!

ChickenWing
Jul 22, 2010

:v:

Shirec posted:

Please excuse cross posting!


Please throw all the advice at me

:yotj: congrats! You deserve the hell out of this!

Working in tech consulting is great because you are very likely to be surrounded with some really talented people who can teach you a ton, especially if the company was competent enough to be acquired by Accenture (and after a year the just-acquired brain drain should be down to a bare minimum). You've mentioned that you're very outgoing, which is a huge plus - personality is big in consulting, and being able to stand up for yourself versus a client who can't comprehend that getting 9 women pregnant won't get them a baby in one month is a pretty important skill once you get into a more client-facing role.

Keetron
Sep 26, 2008

Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

Pedestrian Xing posted:

~~the Agile way~~ :pcgaming:

Che Delilas posted:

God, is there any software company on the planet that doesn't throw all safety and diligence into the sewer the instant their smallest customer waves for their attention?

I think the reason that we keep running into this issue is that companies that write perfect software never ship a product so they go bust so they are not hiring. Only companies that accept lower quality will ship products that can be sold.
Failing to understand that building up technical debt comes with future cost and complaining when that future cost arrives is the biggest problem in my opinion. Like blaming testers for bugs in production after giving them only a few days after delivery to test and regression test everything.

So business having unreasonable expectations is a survival strategy. Who knew?

poemdexter
Feb 18, 2005

Hooray Indie Games!

College Slice

Keetron posted:

This morning I came in early and the local git server is down. My branch is merged and I needed to pull the updated master. So here I am, posting.
Also a bunch of nightly jobs failed as they lean on git it seems.
Oh and some other jobs only report "Command exited with status 1" without anything else and it seems someone turned logging off.
To top it off, the PO basically told me to ignore all quality gateways to make some artificial deadline because after that we have another artificial deadline to make. The technical debt is growing, the interest we pay on it increases and there is no plan to ever pay it off.

Everything considered it seems like every development job in the history of development jobs, with Shirec's job as the exception (congrats on leaving that demon).

Sounds like you have too many shell scripts in your pipeline without proper logging if you're getting that report back. It's a very common thing I see in Jenkins with shell scripts.

If your network is still up, you can always point to another coworkers machine and pull from them. That's one of the nice things about git being decentralized. If that doesn't work, ask them to send you a patch for master.

Also your PO is a piece of poo poo asking you to pass on QA things.

BaronVonVaderham
Jul 31, 2011

All hail the queen!

Pedestrian Xing posted:

~~the Agile way~~ :pcgaming:

The only Dilbert that has ever accidentally made me laugh:



I found out yesterday we hired 38 new people so far in my department this year. Including myself, I can only think of about 6 new developers. Everyone else has titles like "scrum master" or various middle management whose only function appears to be to make scrum look like it's working better for its own sake. It feels a lot like if a hospital wanted to treat more patients but didn't have enough doctors, so they kept hiring more full-time wizards to perform various empty rituals to supposedly make the existing doctors just work faster.

The more I experience it in an enterprise-level environment, the more I'm growing to despise the cult of scrum. Maybe it has a purpose in a startup pushing to get a proof of concept and score some funding, but not in a stable company that should be thinking more long-term and has no need to be at red alert every week for no reason.

Keetron posted:

To top it off, the PO basically told me to ignore all quality gateways to make some artificial deadline because after that we have another artificial deadline to make. The technical debt is growing, the interest we pay on it increases and there is no plan to ever pay it off.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Macichne Leainig
Jul 26, 2012

by VG
Oh my lord, today is one of those days.

I was added to a pull request to add a new query to our GraphQL API. The developer added an entirely new schema for the query, when there is already a schema for this type of data. I left a comment on the PR saying I don't think this is necessary, and they replied: "but I'm adding a new query!"

Look, if you don't respect the schema definitions and what they represent, the architects will get mad. Sorry for following company-wide best practices.

To boot, they resolved my comment and tried to push the PR to auto-complete (we have policies in place that require PRs to have successful builds, 2 approvals and all comments are resolved). I reopened my comment, canceled the autocomplete, and they resolved my comment again and turned autocomplete on.

Macichne Leainig fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Jun 13, 2018

BurntCornMuffin
Jan 9, 2009


Keetron posted:

To top it off, the PO basically told me to ignore all quality gateways to make some artificial deadline because after that we have another artificial deadline to make. The technical debt is growing, the interest we pay on it increases and there is no plan to ever pay it off.

The entire point of Agile is to facilitate communication between dev and business and providing a built in framework for expectation management, priority shifting, and response to delays. Your PO is failing at this. If you cannot bring up the arbitrary deadline problem in the retro, it is time to consider getting out.

Sprint retros exist for accountability and alerting about problems. Screeching about tech debt in every one until it gets prioritized has been effective for me, especially when I bring the other devs on board.

Che Delilas
Nov 23, 2009
FREE TIBET WEED

Keetron posted:

I think the reason that we keep running into this issue is that companies that write perfect software never ship a product so they go bust so they are not hiring. Only companies that accept lower quality will ship products that can be sold.
Failing to understand that building up technical debt comes with future cost and complaining when that future cost arrives is the biggest problem in my opinion. Like blaming testers for bugs in production after giving them only a few days after delivery to test and regression test everything.

So business having unreasonable expectations is a survival strategy. Who knew?

There's a huge difference between "perfect" and "launch everything out the door with a steam catapult as soon as it enters our feild of vision and then forget about it." I'm totally okay with a slapped together feature to make a customer happey, provided we get a handful of hours to shore up its foundations at some point. That last part just never happens, which is what I think we're both ultimately complaining about.

Clanpot Shake
Aug 10, 2006
shake shake!

Protocol7 posted:

Oh my lord, today is one of those days.

I was added to a pull request to add a new query to our GraphQL API. The developer added an entirely new schema for the query, when there is already a schema for this type of data. I left a comment on the PR saying I don't think this is necessary, and they replied: "but I'm adding a new query!"

Look, if you don't respect the schema definitions and what they represent, the architects will get mad. Sorry for following company-wide best practices.

To boot, they resolved my comment and tried to push the PR to auto-complete (we have policies in place that require PRs to have successful builds, 2 approvals and all comments are resolved). I reopened my comment, canceled the autocomplete, and they resolved my comment again and turned autocomplete on.

What would happen if you just declined the PR?

poemdexter
Feb 18, 2005

Hooray Indie Games!

College Slice

BaronVonVaderham posted:

The only Dilbert that has ever accidentally made me laugh:



I found out yesterday we hired 38 new people so far in my department this year. Including myself, I can only think of about 6 new developers. Everyone else has titles like "scrum master" or various middle management whose only function appears to be to make scrum look like it's working better for its own sake. It feels a lot like if a hospital wanted to treat more patients but didn't have enough doctors, so they kept hiring more full-time wizards to perform various empty rituals to supposedly make the existing doctors just work faster.

The more I experience it in an enterprise-level environment, the more I'm growing to despise the cult of scrum. Maybe it has a purpose in a startup pushing to get a proof of concept and score some funding, but not in a stable company that should be thinking more long-term and has no need to be at red alert every week for no reason.


This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Scrum is incredibly simple. It doesn't really have any hard rules and is incredibly flexible. What has happened is there's all these consultancy shops that want to turn it into a full blown framework for getting poo poo done and please pay us all this money so we can throw more management and process into it because we're experts.

I'm a certified scrum master and it was one day training to get it. I've seen it work incredibly well in enterprise and I've also seen it get blown up into 100 layers of management and dedicated scrum masters etc etc just like you see it. I don't understand what a full time scrum master can do all day.

BaronVonVaderham
Jul 31, 2011

All hail the queen!

poemdexter posted:

I don't understand what a full time scrum master can do all day.

Pretty much. It came up in another development thread, but I just read the book Bullshit Jobs: A Theory, and a full time scrum master falls perfectly into the author's category of "taskmaster" (a middle management position that only exists to manufacture and assign work to underlings but doesn't actually produce anything that helps get that work done).

I had a decent experience with agile at my last job, probably the only positive thing I can say about the company. We had senior developers as pseudo-managers, then one CTO overseeing them. There were no arbitrary deadlines (/sprints), there were no elaborate grooming ceremonies. The team leads discussed the backlog with the business side and decided priorities, ordered them accordingly, and we just grabbed whatever was next in the queue.

We also had true CI instead of scheduled releases, one of my first big projects was actually setting up all the automated pipelines for it. At first I was wary, but I grew to love it. It's so much easier to pin down what caused a bug and roll back a single merge instead of having to pick apart huge release branch PRs or scramble to push out half-assed hotfixes.

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.

Protocol7 posted:

To boot, they resolved my comment and tried to push the PR to auto-complete (we have policies in place that require PRs to have successful builds, 2 approvals and all comments are resolved). I reopened my comment, canceled the autocomplete, and they resolved my comment again and turned autocomplete on.

Firable, imo.

poemdexter
Feb 18, 2005

Hooray Indie Games!

College Slice

BaronVonVaderham posted:

Pretty much. It came up in another development thread, but I just read the book Bullshit Jobs: A Theory, and a full time scrum master falls perfectly into the author's category of "taskmaster" (a middle management position that only exists to manufacture and assign work to underlings but doesn't actually produce anything that helps get that work done).

I had a decent experience with agile at my last job, probably the only positive thing I can say about the company. We had senior developers as pseudo-managers, then one CTO overseeing them. There were no arbitrary deadlines (/sprints), there were no elaborate grooming ceremonies. The team leads discussed the backlog with the business side and decided priorities, ordered them accordingly, and we just grabbed whatever was next in the queue.

We also had true CI instead of scheduled releases, one of my first big projects was actually setting up all the automated pipelines for it. At first I was wary, but I grew to love it. It's so much easier to pin down what caused a bug and roll back a single merge instead of having to pick apart huge release branch PRs or scramble to push out half-assed hotfixes.

Your last job sounded like my last job. We took turns being scrum master on our team. Our PO was in our team room. Prod deployments would happen without anyone really noticing or caring since everything was so smooth. I miss it. :(

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

Scrum is a compromised framework designed to be implemented in workplaces constitutionally incapable of surrounding their work with bullshit. In its ideal form, it insulates a subset of the development team from the bullshit surrounding them. Very often it leaks.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

BaronVonVaderham posted:

Pretty much. It came up in another development thread, but I just read the book Bullshit Jobs: A Theory, and a full time scrum master falls perfectly into the author's category of "taskmaster" (a middle management position that only exists to manufacture and assign work to underlings but doesn't actually produce anything that helps get that work done).
in a system where workers must give up what they produce at the end of every day and have no ownership over what they have produced, you need an army of supervisors and taskmasters to keep them in line and productive

BurntCornMuffin
Jan 9, 2009


comedyblissoption posted:

in a system where workers must give up what they produce at the end of every day and have no ownership over what they have produced, you need an army of supervisors and taskmasters to keep them in line and productive

So, what I'm hearing is that as workers we must liberate ourselves by seizing the means of production and casting down our bourgeoisie taskmasters.

baquerd
Jul 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
Dedicated scrum masters in my experience tend to fall into one of two camps. There is the relaxed seat-warmer who can read Jira and occasionally act as a neutral third party, great to work with but largely a waste of money. Then there is the scrum nazi who will unironically espouse the Agile manifesto as gospel while raining hell on anyone who questions the process as they lay it out. Those fuckers can go to hell.

Rotating scrum masters works well, team lead as scrum master works well, but dedicated scrum masters need to go.

Macichne Leainig
Jul 26, 2012

by VG

Clanpot Shake posted:

What would happen if you just declined the PR?

Two other people had already approved it, satisfying the policy to complete it. I should suggest that if someone rejects the PR, though, the policy won't be satisfied until their vote changes.

CPColin posted:

Firable, imo.

I wish. This specific developer has given me a lot of grief over the last few weeks. We started a project to add a few data fields to an existing call to a third party API, and one of the messages I received from them was, and I wish I was kidding, "Do we have any existing code to make calls into this API? Let me know."

Yes. The service that has been integrated into our product since 2014 and one of our biggest selling points has existing code to call into their API.

I spoke with my manager and I let him know I was interested in another role that was open internally, though, so with any luck I will soon get to start working with more GraphQL, some Angular and a completely different and more competent scrum team.

Macichne Leainig fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jun 13, 2018

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.
The Scrum consultant who trained us at my last job stressed that the team should decide how the team works, but there can be benefit in strictly adhering to the framework for a few sprints so everybody gets a feel for what works and what doesn't. I immediately got annoyed because the guy acting as our team's scrum master didn't force us to go through that "just try it" phase and let everybody immediately continue to silo themselves, not define what "Done" means, and so on. Then, after we wasted time in the planning meetings figuring out what each person was going to work on, we went back to our desks and didn't talk to each other or collaborate until the next morning's stand-up.

Meanwhile, my supervisor continually went around saying how well we were doing Scrum and how much better it was.

So I bounced after four months.

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.

BaronVonVaderham posted:

I found out yesterday we hired 38 new people so far in my department this year. Including myself, I can only think of about 6 new developers. Everyone else has titles like "scrum master" or various middle management whose only function appears to be to make scrum look like it's working better for its own sake. It feels a lot like if a hospital wanted to treat more patients but didn't have enough doctors, so they kept hiring more full-time wizards to perform various empty rituals to supposedly make the existing doctors just work faster.

Well, first of all, you have to ensure the smooth running of the development team. Having developers around would be no help at all.

Shirec
Jul 29, 2009

How to cock it up, Fig. I

Saw this and thought yall would appreciate (and feeling proud I understood most of it)

https://twitter.com/yoz/status/1006636464350695424

mila kunis
Jun 10, 2011

Ghost of Reagan Past posted:

SQL is a fantastic language and there's a lot that modern languages could learn from SQL.

Years of using ORMs has turned my sql fu into complete poo poo outside of basic selects and group bys and crap. I'm kind of leaning into using stuff like massive.js which throw away the concept of ORMs completely in my side project; any recommended books to get good at using sql again? (if its for a specific rdbms i'd prefer postgres)

bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m
Apr 16, 2017

Í̝̰ ͓̯̖̫̹̯̤A҉m̺̩͝ ͇̬A̡̮̞̠͚͉̱̫ K̶e͓ǵ.̻̱̪͖̹̟̕
The final interview for the job I applied for in Vancouver is tomorrow morning. Just a social interview thing with the whole team. I'm pretty stoked about going out for breakfast with the team over Skype :v:

The CTO reached out to me this evening to say that I impressed their lead developer. It's weird that I may end up with an intermediate-to-senior level role with 5 months of experience, but also, it's cool and good.

TheFluff
Dec 13, 2006

FRIENDS, LISTEN TO ME
I AM A SEAGULL
OF WEALTH AND TASTE

tekz posted:

Years of using ORMs has turned my sql fu into complete poo poo outside of basic selects and group bys and crap. I'm kind of leaning into using stuff like massive.js which throw away the concept of ORMs completely in my side project; any recommended books to get good at using sql again? (if its for a specific rdbms i'd prefer postgres)

I think the best approach I've seen to ORM-like things is the one taken by SQLAlchemy (Python) and Objection.js (uses Knex under the hood). That is, you have model classes and you can define relationships, but for anything more complex than a simple select, you just get a query builder that looks something like this:

JavaScript code:
let columns = {
  id: 'negotiation.id',
  // ...
};
let query = knex
  .select(columns)
  .from('negotiations as negotiation')
  .innerJoin('organizations as organization', 'negotiation.counterpartOrganizationId', 'organization.id')
  .whereExists(knex
    .select()
    .from('negotiations_properties as negotiationsProperties')
    .where('negotiationsProperties.negotiationId', '=', knex.raw('??', ['negotiation.id']))
    .where('negotiationsProperties.propertyId', '=', 5)
  )
The problem with ORM's that try to have some kind of simple API is that they simply don't allow you to utilise the strengths of SQL, and frequently the code generation for anything more complex than a simple one-to-many join is utter garbage anyway. On the other extreme, the problem with just writing raw SQL is that it's really hard to make composable, parameterized and reusable. Hence, a query builder. What you're doing when you're generating SQL dynamically is metaprogramming in a very practical sense - you're writing a program to generate a program. It's nice then to be able to pass around a program (query) to different functions that can manipulate it or extend it as they please in a simple way. Generating a big complex query by using a few small reusable functions is very nice, and getting full control over how your query is generated is also great.

As for getting good at SQL, I think as long as you get all of the different joins and when to use them you're pretty much good. By "all of the joins" I mean
1. Inner join/left join/right join. Everyone knows these, but way too often it stops there.
2. Semi-joins (WHERE EXISTS/WHERE NOT EXISTS). These are incredibly useful and criminally underused, way too often you see people write "left join... where target_table.id is null" when they want a WHERE NOT EXISTS, or get stuck on some obnoxious GROUP BY for deduplication when they could just have used WHERE EXISTS.
3. Lateral joins (also known as CROSS APPLY/OUTER APPLY in SQL Server). These are not exactly joins in the traditional sense, but they are also criminally underused and people often resort to doing multiple queries on the application side instead, and that's a shame.

I've never used full join/cross join in a real project but it's good to know they exist, I guess.

Oh, and read up on the slowly-changing dimension patterns, thats also really handy to be familiar with.

TheFluff fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Jun 14, 2018

Keetron
Sep 26, 2008

Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

Hey, at least you get to use SQL.
When using elasticsearch, you basically compose a json file that has a DSL embedded as the search query. Now using json is actually rather nice, as it is a familiair structure for which a ton of composers are available.
Of course the codebase I am maintaining as all json as `String` and uses a `String.format` to build rather complex queries. To convert this all to Jackson for reasons of security and robustness is on the tech debt backlog.
And these forums should go and support markDown

redleader
Aug 18, 2005

Engage according to operational parameters
Counterpoint: if you write RIGHT JOINs, :fuckoff:

Yes, in theory it's just a LEFT JOIN the other way around. In practice, it turns everyone's heads inside out trying to understand it, and it will stay there forever since no one thinks they understand it well enough for a rewrite.

I'd be interested in seeing some RIGHT JOINs used properly, that make a query clearer and aren't as clear (or clearer) when written as a LEFT JOIN.

bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m
Apr 16, 2017

Í̝̰ ͓̯̖̫̹̯̤A҉m̺̩͝ ͇̬A̡̮̞̠͚͉̱̫ K̶e͓ǵ.̻̱̪͖̹̟̕

bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:

The final interview for the job I applied for in Vancouver is tomorrow morning. Just a social interview thing with the whole team. I'm pretty stoked about going out for breakfast with the team over Skype :v:

The CTO reached out to me this evening to say that I impressed their lead developer. It's weird that I may end up with an intermediate-to-senior level role with 5 months of experience, but also, it's cool and good.

Hey so speaking of new job poo poo, let's talk salary negotiating a bit here.

Right now I'm getting paid at basically above the local market cap for a junior developer (50k). I did a maybe dumb thing and revealed this to the potential new employer during my interview: I was asked my salary expectations, I said that we could talk about that at a later date, but I revealed my current salary thinking that they may have tried to lowball me based on my lack of long-term professional experience. Now I'm worried that they may just offer me what I'm currently making or just a few grand more, especially after hearing feedback about how pleased the lead devs were with my technical skills. Ideally, I'd like to see a 20% increase, along with maybe a few perks (paying my phone bill? covering moving expenses? extra vacation days?). Is it too late to try and negotiate that now that they know what my current salary is and I should just expect something like a 10% increase which will not make up the difference in cost of living between my current city and Vancouver?

redleader posted:

I'd be interested in seeing some RIGHT JOINs used properly, that make a query clearer and aren't as clear (or clearer) when written as a LEFT JOIN.

I was asked why I prefer front end to back end during my last interview and I made a joke about how it's easier to impress my friends when out for drinks by showing them a dumb little javascript animation than it is to show them a really sexy and useful RIGHT JOIN. It's the only time I've referenced them since I learned SQL :v:

BurntCornMuffin
Jan 9, 2009


bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:

I did a maybe dumb thing and revealed this to the potential new employer during my interview: I was asked my salary expectations, I said that we could talk about that at a later date, but I revealed my current salary thinking that they may have tried to lowball me based on my lack of long-term professional experience. Now I'm worried that they may just offer me what I'm currently making or just a few grand more, especially after hearing feedback about how pleased the lead devs were with my technical skills. Ideally, I'd like to see a 20% increase, along with maybe a few perks (paying my phone bill? covering moving expenses? extra vacation days?). Is it too late to try and negotiate that now that they know what my current salary is and I should just expect something like a 10% increase which will not make up the difference in cost of living between my current city and Vancouver?

The negotiation thread will be more helpful, but yeah, you kinda hosed it up. While it's still possible to negotiate, it's much more difficult now since they'll inevitably propose your salary + modest gain and you'll have a hard time pushing higher since they know your BATNA.

beuges
Jul 4, 2005
fluffy bunny butterfly broomstick

bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:

Hey so speaking of new job poo poo, let's talk salary negotiating a bit here.

Right now I'm getting paid at basically above the local market cap for a junior developer (50k). I did a maybe dumb thing and revealed this to the potential new employer during my interview: I was asked my salary expectations, I said that we could talk about that at a later date, but I revealed my current salary thinking that they may have tried to lowball me based on my lack of long-term professional experience. Now I'm worried that they may just offer me what I'm currently making or just a few grand more, especially after hearing feedback about how pleased the lead devs were with my technical skills. Ideally, I'd like to see a 20% increase, along with maybe a few perks (paying my phone bill? covering moving expenses? extra vacation days?). Is it too late to try and negotiate that now that they know what my current salary is and I should just expect something like a 10% increase which will not make up the difference in cost of living between my current city and Vancouver?

If you're relocating from a less expensive area then you have a bit of leverage. If you're wanting 20% and their offer is 10%, then tell them that you'd effectively be taking a pay cut due to the difference in cost of living and use that to open up a negotiation. If they really like you, and if they have the budget to go higher, they should be open to a discussion...

… Unlike this place I interviewed at a few years back - the technical people loved me, but management had an absolutely inflexible rule about not paying me more than X because I had less than 10 years of experience at the time. Best part was that X was actually the equivalent of $50pm _less_ than what I was earning at the time, and I'd have been changing a 5 minute drive to a 45 minute one. I'd have been working on our online tax filing platform, which still, in tyool 2018, requires a flash browser plugin.

bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m
Apr 16, 2017

Í̝̰ ͓̯̖̫̹̯̤A҉m̺̩͝ ͇̬A̡̮̞̠͚͉̱̫ K̶e͓ǵ.̻̱̪͖̹̟̕
Got the job. The increase ended up being more like 25%. They offered 18, I said I was hoping to get 30% and we settled on just under 25. I start remotely at the end of the month and then I move after all my.poo poo is settled in my current city. Exciting stuff.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:

Got the job. The increase ended up being more like 25%. They offered 18, I said I was hoping to get 30% and we settled on just under 25. I start remotely at the end of the month and then I move after all my.poo poo is settled in my current city. Exciting stuff.

Congrats

Shirec
Jul 29, 2009

How to cock it up, Fig. I

So I know I'm on the verge of freedom (haven't submitted my notice yet, waiting on official offer letter) so this stings a lot less, but drat my boss is amazing at going right for my weak points.

I had a two hour meeting today about how garbage a developer I am. He started off with questioning the way I designed a table, all of which had been discussed with the team. Apparently I can't expect them to pay much attention so it's my fault that a month later he decided I did it wrong (a user apps table instead of an applications table with a through table to users) and I'm "not getting things as fast as the guys".

After making his point with the tables, he spent most of it telling me that I: don't have the personality to succeed as a developer, am not logical enough to be a developer, don't have the dedication to be a developer. He said that a big red flag is that I ask for context on issues, unlike my co-workers. That I want to understand the why and how. I should just make the thing and not need to know anything else. I don't "follow the patterns that were set before me". I normally get the odd ball issues or the first time something is getting done, so I had to bite my tongue saying something.

He said he thinks this come from my background. I was originally an accountant and thus have done a lot of analysis and reporting. He said I "light up" when talking about data, and that he only sees a path for me to succeed as a business analyst. He asked me to explain why I thought I'd be good at this (this being programming). I explained how I got into it from programming complex macros in VB to ... and then he interrupted me to poo poo all over it. He said no offense, but you like to pursue stuff that gives you instant gratification. Good programmers/developers that work on enterprise level things understand that it's a long hard road to the pay off, and I don't understand that.

He gave me the option of working partially for another executive as a needs based analyst and partially as a front end developer, with the only other option being to continue being full stack but I need to work 80 hours a week because my 80 hours is equivalent to 40 hours from his "productive" staff. I said fine, I'll take the first option.



Jokes on him motherfucker! I'll be out soon. I wish he didn't savage my confidence in the meantime though :smith:

Gildiss
Aug 24, 2010

Grimey Drawer
Get that HIPAA poo poo or whatever going!

Dance on his grave!

the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture





bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:

Hey so speaking of new job poo poo, let's talk salary negotiating a bit here.

Right now I'm getting paid at basically above the local market cap for a junior developer (50k). I did a maybe dumb thing and revealed this to the potential new employer during my interview: I was asked my salary expectations, I said that we could talk about that at a later date, but I revealed my current salary thinking that they may have tried to lowball me based on my lack of long-term professional experience. Now I'm worried that they may just offer me what I'm currently making or just a few grand more, especially after hearing feedback about how pleased the lead devs were with my technical skills. Ideally, I'd like to see a 20% increase, along with maybe a few perks (paying my phone bill? covering moving expenses? extra vacation days?). Is it too late to try and negotiate that now that they know what my current salary is and I should just expect something like a 10% increase which will not make up the difference in cost of living between my current city and Vancouver?

I was asked why I prefer front end to back end during my last interview and I made a joke about how it's easier to impress my friends when out for drinks by showing them a dumb little javascript animation than it is to show them a really sexy and useful RIGHT JOIN. It's the only time I've referenced them since I learned SQL :v:

$50k is ridiculously low for vancouver. how much experience/education do you have? i'm at a vancouver startup and we pay our interns $18k for three months. if you want, send me your cv, i'll pass it along to our hiring manager

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.

Shirec posted:

He said that a big red flag is that I ask for context on issues, unlike my co-workers. That I want to understand the why and how.

Holy poo poo do not give up this habit. It is very good, especially in a junior role. And of course gently caress that guy for claiming every development task is a marathon. You absolutely can get instant gratification as the small bits of code pass their tests and then you start composing them into useful functionality. I almost pity him for thinking things have to work the way he says they do.

freeasinbeer
Mar 26, 2015

by Fluffdaddy
FWIW HIPAA is pretty lax statute wise so unless the dude was looking up his neighbor and posting it on next door he might not be in violation. Id need to see the details of what exactly he did

You have to remember that it was written for both podunk doctors offices as well as huge health orgs, and its default is basically best effort.

Now there are a ton of big no nos, like disclosing health records to someone not authorized and a few specific things like using a cloud you dont have a BAA with as verboten even if encrypted. But for example if its self hosted on your own orgs stuff and you are otherwise fulfilling your external BAA, you dont have to encrypt. A lost laptop is a reportable event either way FDE on is way better, but the statute doesnt require it.

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Gildiss
Aug 24, 2010

Grimey Drawer

freeasinbeer posted:

FWIW HIPAA is pretty lax statute wise so unless the dude was looking up his neighbor and posting it on next door he might not be in violation. I’d need to see the details of what exactly he did

You have to remember that it was written for both podunk doctors offices as well as huge health orgs, and its default is basically “best effort”.

Now there are a ton of big no no’s, like disclosing health records to someone not authorized and a few specific things like using a cloud you don’t have a BAA with as verboten even if encrypted. But for example if it’s self hosted on your own orgs stuff and you are otherwise fulfilling your external BAA, you don’t “have” to encrypt. A lost laptop is a reportable event either way FDE on is way better, but the statute doesn’t require it.

Shirec posted:

Oosh yeah. The actual one I was going to report is also based on him logging onto our older platform to access customer data and see if my team lead's wife was in there, found out she went for a UTI, and then made fun of him for it in front of all of us.

So it's a conversation rather than a document.

Is this valid?

Really invested in seeing this boss burn anyway we can!

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