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This season was such a slog with how nonlinear and, at times, random its storytelling was, and that ultimate decision with David's character has me fairly uninterested in continuing forward.
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Jun 13, 2018 18:12
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I'm enjoying the current setup for next season. I admit I like villain protagonists, and Farouk deff. fits the bill, and david isn't a villain but certainly an antagonist. His mental instability is more problematic than Farouk's desire to be the totalitarian divine ruler of his own fiefdom, if only because of scale. That said, I do think the portrayal for David's deterioration should have started earlier in the season and setup more, it felt like we needed another episode to make the transition less jarring. Enjoyed it, stylish as hell with some pacing and setup problems but overall solidly entertaining. Like last season though, probably a lot more enjoyable binging than "live".
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Jun 13, 2018 18:58
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double nine posted:I'm enjoying the current setup for next season. I admit I like villain protagonists, and Farouk deff. fits the bill, and david isn't a villain but certainly an antagonist. His mental instability is more problematic than Farouk's desire to be the totalitarian divine ruler of his own fiefdom, if only because of scale. Pretty much. One of my favorite things about how this season wrapped up is it's directly addressing something I've always thought about Superman -- that really, if people like that existed, they'd basically exist in a context similar to international politics where law and morality don't really have much weight or any enforcement mechanism besides consensus, and it's all just power relations. It's "better" to have a monster or a dictator who you can predict, get along with, and who won't nuke everything than a madman (or, arguably, even just a sufficiently uncompromising idealist) who might do anything and doesn't care about the established norms of conduct.
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Jun 13, 2018 19:02
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP13Vd4fIoY
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Jun 13, 2018 20:31
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I think that the setup for David's deterioration/turn were definitely set up all throughout the season. John Hamm was talking about David every single time he did an after-school special on mental illness.
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Jun 13, 2018 20:56
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Doorknob Slobber posted:everyone was rooting for walter white the whole way through so I don't think he expects this at all. David raped syd though so he's the bad man now, just because you're rooting for or against someone doesn't make them bad/good. I loved this episode, from sing off at the start all the way to the escape. gently caress man this was pretty good. I enjoyed this episode, too. If not for its content and tone, at least for its straight-forwardness of delivery. I have also loved and enjoyed the whole season, but I feel like to earn the turn they had in the finale, they probably should have shaved off about 10% of the art-haus experimentalism for some more straightforwardness. HOWEVER, I will say, even though the turn feels a bit quick, I have felt, in hindsight, like I've found David to be... less likable this entire season. So, you know, it's been there, under the surface, I suppose.
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Jun 13, 2018 20:57
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Echoing others that this season was generally enjoyable, with some truly astounding visuals, coupled with a story that came nowhere near adding up. I don't really understand why it needed an extra episode, though. Half of one episode was random shots of characters wandering through the desert, and others had long scenes of stuff like "Cary and Kerry stare at each other for awhile". E: And yeah, the entire build up of Farouk getting his body back made it seem like, "Oh poo poo, things are gonna get epic", and instead he just...did what he was already doing anyway? Laterite fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jun 13, 2018 |
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Jun 13, 2018 22:46
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I decided to stick with this show and it kinda grew on me but I definitely think that, the awesome music video battle in the beginning aside, this episode was a bummer. I think a lot of peoples' issue here, mine included, is that the plot twist of David being evil is a violation of the show, don't tell rule. The show literally tells you he's evil instead of trusting the actual events to give that impression, when at worst, what he's done is be your average grimdark antihero. Syd in particular has no right to complain about David being disturbed during Melanie-Farouk's Hannibal Lector impression when it's revealed in the past that she stole some dude's body so she could beat up a bunch of bitchy girls or stole her mother's body to have sex with her boyfriend. It doesn't help that the mind wipe in the desert can easily be read as curing some SK mind fuckery instead of anything malicious, comparable to, ironically enough, giving someone their meds when their ranting about the Rothschilds or whatever. Especially when Syd was ready to kill him as the most evil bastard in the land based on him torturing an avatar of the SK, the SK being a centuries old Satanic archetype that had kidnapped her, but no, David is clearly the ultimate evil here. When you're torturing a body jumping mass murderer and rapist that uses its hosts to gently caress with people, I don't think the rules of Geneva Convention exactly apply. It gets worse when the show uses rape as the ultimate evil which is cliche in itself, but the real problem is that the scene doesn't lend itself to that interpretation. I just thought it was your average love scene, a love scene that was kinda awkward, but I just thought that was some weird choreography or acting stuff, not an actual lack of consent. And then you have the problem that the judgment passed on David only comes after Farouk used a mind rat. But all the big name reviews are treating this thing like it was clear cut and someone earlier posted that Hawley shares this same impression, when the "turn" here hasn't convinced me in the slightest that David has become the Joker.
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Jun 13, 2018 22:47
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Loved this episode a lot. The whole rape thing seemed somewhat like an allusion to #MeToo in that David clearly loves Syd, but still betrayed her for completely self-serving reasons and ended up not thinking of any of the consequences it would've had for her. It wasn't outright evil, it was a careless, thoughtless, selfish abuse of power that showed an enormous lack of empathy. Whether or not the timing lines up I don't know, but either way it felt very relevant in addressing that sort of dynamic to me. It also makes David's character that much more tragic, since he did it out of pure desperation, being deathly afraid of losing anyone that ever loved him and doing the worst thing you can do to a person to keep it from happening. It didn't feel unearned to me at all, especially considering he just lost the one other person in his life that cared about him - as a result his psychoses amplified every self-destructive tendency he had inside him, beginning with a willingness to commit cruelty and torture to get was was "taken" from him, and ending with outright manipulation and assault of the person he loved because she turned on him. It all tracks in my opinion.
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Jun 13, 2018 22:48
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This season felt like it was less than the sum of its parts, there was plenty of cool/horrifying stuff but not enough structure to make it a satisfying season of television. Hopefully there is a little more plot next time.
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Jun 13, 2018 22:58
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Man this episode has made discussions of this on other sites completely bonkers.
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Jun 13, 2018 23:05
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Shitenshi posted:It doesn't help that the mind wipe in the desert can easily be read as curing some SK mind fuckery instead of anything malicious, comparable to, ironically enough, giving someone their meds when their ranting about the Rothschilds or whatever. [...] I just thought it was your average love scene, a love scene that was kinda awkward, but I just thought that was some weird choreography or acting stuff, not an actual lack of consent. And then you have the problem that the judgment passed on David only comes after Farouk used a mind rat. But all the big name reviews are treating this thing like it was clear cut and someone earlier posted that Hawley shares this same impression, when the "turn" here hasn't convinced me in the slightest that David has become the Joker. This is in no way comparable to ordering a mentally ill man to take his meds so he'll stop listening to the voices in his head, especially when that man is a living WMD.
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Jun 14, 2018 00:33
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Dmitri-9 posted:This season felt like it was less than the sum of its parts, there was plenty of cool/horrifying stuff but not enough structure to make it a satisfying season of television. Hopefully there is a little more plot next time. Jerusalem posted:With the season done, I have to say it feels like we only got maybe 75% of the actual story and a lot of it was set-up for season 3 (so good thing they got renewed I guess!) - there is still a lot of stuff that feels incomplete or unrefined in a way that the far tighter season 1 didn't. Still loved the show, but I do feel like something was missing this time around (probably just not enough Aubrey Plaza, so woop for season 3!).  in the end, it felt unfocused and not well structured imhoalso the season finale didn't feel like a finale at all, more of a "oh there it is", episode 10 out of 12 kind of thing
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Jun 14, 2018 00:34
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Also the internet seems to have forgotten that David killed a poo poo load of people he now works with in season 1.
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Jun 14, 2018 00:34
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I’ll forgive (a bit) the “show-not-tell” rule breaking because I think it serves the narrative style to not have the audience slowly realize he’s not the hero, rather have that realization land with a cold, just like the turn kinda surprises David, the delusionary “hero”. In other news, the length of his pants always kinda bothered me.
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Jun 14, 2018 00:41
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So I've watched the finale twice now and I'm still trying to digest everything. If we take Chapter Ten at face value is David becoming the version we see at the start of episode ten inevitable? I'll be sad if that's the last we see of Jermaine Clement but at least we got what we did. Where did Chapter Eleven go?! I agree with the consensus that there were a lot of loose threads left dangling and I'm not convinced they'll necessarily follow up on all of them next season. The opening scene kicked all sorts of rear end and set pieces like that might be my favourite part of season two. I understand that what David did to Syd is unforgivable but I can see how given that he's mentally unstable he could convince himself he wasn't doing something wrong or that it wasn't as bad as it was. I'm curious how much of this is his psychosis and how much is a delusion encouraged/planted by Farouk either through manipulating others or maybe directly? I guess the want to keep that ambiguous. Farouk was clearly trying to manipulate Syd into believing that it was inevitable that David would become to villain. Up to the point where David stole her memories I don't think anything he did was unforgivable or irredeemable. He seemed able to identify that a part of him would revel in killing Farouk and maybe recognized it could lead down a dark path, he did seem to struggle with it in the scene with Cary. I like to think that there is a middle-ground to be had which leaves open the possibility of redemption for David if he gets the help he needs because I don't find a storyline with an inevitable conclusion as engaging. I'm hoping for a season where Lenny and him go on a bizarre road trip that introduces a host of new personalities while Divsion 3 ineptly hunts them, maybe some heavy Looney Tunes references. I must say I love that the show makes me uncomfortable and question things, haven't felt this engaged with a work in a long time.
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Jun 14, 2018 00:45
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Man, this finale ruled. I'm so down for full-on Legion in the next season. David is gonna be an incredible villain.
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Jun 14, 2018 00:55
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Gobbeldygook posted:That's because it actually is a very clear-cut rape. Someone approached a woman and said, "hey your boyfriend is actually an evil violent piece of poo poo, I have video of your boyfriend torturing someone and making out with another woman after he said he wasn't doing so". Based on that the woman confronted her boyfriend and said she was going to break up with him. He proceeds to wipe her memory of the true things she was told about him and then have sex with her. She very clearly said she did not want to be with him and he altered her mind so she would want to. If you don't see how that's rape, please get help. Oliver was an SK avatar at the time, and David rightly concluded the guy had kidnapped Syd. The creature that's killed god knows how many people in the past, tortured him growing up, killed his sister, raped Lenny and had people all over right terrified enough to try and kill the bastard before he does anything else. The only thing Melanie could say to dissuade her from looking the other way when Syd said the exact same thing is just some maudlin, "Does that make it right?" Yes it does, and even if it doesn't or David is the sadist that is being portrayed there, that sure as gently caress doesn't make him the sort of world-ending evil that they're currently hunting, especially with Syd's own checkered history and she should know that. I mean, we should also figure that yes, Syd likely deduced Oliver-Farouk did kidnap her and Melanie's unwillingness to take a stand and getting mad at David is her despair at her boyfriend being enthralled against his will and is helpless in the crossfire. That's the only reason she'd bother listening to another friend in a bad place together to begin with instead of finding a way to get the hell out of dodge. But she's still gonna change priorities at the drop of a hat for whatever reason despite that, you know, she was loving kidnapped. You don't immediately think David is evil and ready to kill him when he has Farouk at his mercy (and would have killed him without Lenny's intervention) while ignoring the elephant in the room of a mass murdering rapist eldritch abomination hive mind that uses its victims for sport and delights in loving with people's minds, nevermind that most viewers know Melanie's selected history of events was complete bullshit. The mind wipe in that context was no different than removing the delusion monster. Either Syd was another full-fledged Farouk puppet at the time or was in the process of becoming one, or she's REALLY freaking dumb. And the only thing that can exonerate her and incriminate David is the latter. Yeah, I'd call that a bad move on Hawley's part. And even without all that, if David was becoming an actual monster as the narrative wants you to believe, then you sure as gently caress don't pardon the Shadow King, an unrepentant monster who is all kinds of dangerous to be wandering around unshackled like he's just another one of your mates. Shitenshi fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 01:06
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i think the problem is that david is actually literally insane, so sure farouk is a bad guy, but an insane person isn't really good or bad. Farouk is predictable he doesn't want to destroy the world he just wants to be rich and gently caress bitches all day, David on the other hand is insane
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Jun 14, 2018 01:16
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Shitenshi posted:or she's REALLY freaking dumb actually, a positive here is how human the succession of events that lead to well David becoming Legion, which was a good take on "the road of hell is paved with good intentions": Syd's desire for human touch makes her attracted to David at first, and David's troubles create an image of Syd that was the loving payload to the delusion explanations (she is his "love of his life" but never was). Getting shot by a Syd that was already suspicious of his lack of trust on her, manipulated by the Shadow King and whose life lessons were a complete and total loving disaster for a paranoid multiple personality schizophrenic with godly powers in a psychotic episode is pretty much the perfect catalyst to David go full breakdown however how good the concept take was, execution was shoddy
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Jun 14, 2018 01:21
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Shitenshi posted:Oliver was an SK avatar at the time, and David rightly concluded the guy had kidnapped Syd. The creature that's killed god knows how many people in the past, tortured him growing up, killed his sister, raped Lenny and had people all over right terrified enough to try and kill the bastard before he does anything else. The only thing Melanie could say to dissuade her from looking the other way when Syd said the exact same thing is just some maudlin, "Does that make it right?" Yes it does, and even if it doesn't or David is the sadist that is being portrayed there, that sure as gently caress doesn't make him the sort of world-ending evil that they're currently hunting, especially with Syd's own checkered history and she should know that. I mean, we should also figure that yes, Syd likely deduced Oliver-Farouk did kidnap her and Melanie's unwillingness to take a stand and getting mad at David is her despair at her boyfriend being enthralled against his will and is helpless in the crossfire. That's the only reason she'd bother listening to another friend in a bad place together to begin with instead of finding a way to get the hell out of dodge. But she's still gonna change priorities at the drop of a hat for whatever reason despite that, you know, she was loving kidnapped. how does that make it not rape
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Jun 14, 2018 01:23
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Shitenshi posted:You don't immediately think David is evil and ready to kill him when he has Farouk at his mercy (and would have killed him without Lenny's intervention) while ignoring the elephant in the room of a mass murdering rapist eldritch abomination hive mind that uses its victims for sport and delights in loving with people's minds, nevermind that most viewers know Melanie's selected history of events was complete bullshit. The mind wipe in that context was no different than removing the delusion monster. quote:Either Syd was another full-fledged Farouk puppet at the time or was in the process of becoming one, or she's REALLY freaking dumb. And the only thing that can exonerate her and incriminate David is the latter. Yeah, I'd call that a bad move on Hawley's part.
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Jun 14, 2018 01:31
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Oh boy, here goes the thread
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Jun 14, 2018 01:33
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Gobbeldygook posted:That you think a woman listening to another woman explain how her boyfriend is a piece of poo poo and concluding that maybe he is means she's "REALLY freaking dumb" is unsettling. Please get help before you rape someone. All the meanwhile there's a villain who has those exact abilities and can mind control and manipulate people, hmmm.
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Jun 14, 2018 01:35
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syd wasn't manipulated by farouk so much as told the truth by him, combine all that with what she saw while she was in David's head and the fact he lied to her about all sorts of poo poo all season. Yeah, Syd should absolutely loving hate David even Pre-Rape.
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Jun 14, 2018 01:35
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Barreft posted:Oh boy, here goes the thread
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Jun 14, 2018 01:47
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TwoDayLife posted:A women she's known for years, who magically gains knowledge and powers that she didn't have before. Doorknob Slobber posted:syd wasn't manipulated by farouk so much as told the truth by him, combine all that with what she saw while she was in David's head and the fact he lied to her about all sorts of poo poo all season. Yeah, Syd should absolutely loving hate David even Pre-Rape.
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Jun 14, 2018 01:48
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dead comedy forums posted:actually, a positive here is how human the succession of events that lead to well David becoming Legion, which was a good take on "the road of hell is paved with good intentions": Syd's desire for human touch makes her attracted to David at first, and David's troubles create an image of Syd that was the loving payload to the delusion explanations (she is his "love of his life" but never was). Getting shot by a Syd that was already suspicious of his lack of trust on her, manipulated by the Shadow King and whose life lessons were a complete and total loving disaster for a paranoid multiple personality schizophrenic with godly powers in a psychotic episode is pretty much the perfect catalyst to David go full breakdown True enough, but I still think if they wanted to be convincing they should have made David far more overtly psychotic here, instead of being scared that he lost another loved one and left alone in the desert so he rightfully retaliated against a monster like Farouk, someone they had been gunning for in the first place. Come to think of it, when Oliver returned to normal and apologized for just being enthralled to Farouk and David walked away having tortured a guy and returning empty-handed, I seem to remember him actually saying something akin to, "What have I done?" An unrepentant bastard he is not. Even when he's talking to his other selves after the showdown in the desert, it felt like just like talking to the angel and the devil on your shoulder, just really self-loathing introspection given what he's been through, not actual madness. It's funny that some people at the beginning of this episode in the thread were bashing Syd and came out rooting for David to become a villain in S3 because his so-called judges were being dinguses and he's coming off as righteous by comparison. Gobbeldygook posted:Stop right there. Removing a physical manifestation of delusion from someone's head is not the same as editing someone's memory for self-serving reasons. That you think they are the same reflects extremely loving badly on you as human being. The first is equivalent to removing cancer from someone's head, the second is roofying someone except worse because roofies don't take away your past memories, only make it hard to form new ones. She had been kidnapped and shows up just when he's ready to kill Farouk for good and would have shot him dead based on a selected history of events meant to break her down. Someone like her is being unsympathetic just to the idea of another person being less than perfect when they're fighting the Shadow King and she's been nabbed? That's pretty frustrating. Please don't tell me you actually fell for Melanie!Farouk's spiel in the cave. And like I said, even if the show correctly portrayed him as an unhinged bastard, the idea of letting Farouk wander around freely in his body when that was the season story arc even without so much as the crown they had earlier is absolutely batshit, to say nothing of the ridiculous idea that THIS is apparently how Farouk becomes the "hero" as Future Syd said. The show itself is even ambiguous by having the "trial" happen only after Farouk uses a mind rat to speak in Syd's ear ala the delusion monster. This is as bad as the Walking Dead S3 finale trying to convince its audience that Carl was evil in killing one of the Governor's soldiers when he was alone with Hershel and Beth, a one-legged old man and a teenage girl who was still pretty green when it came to combat, because said soldier was taking his sweet time in dropping his weapon and he could have taken out anyone of them given the chance.
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Jun 14, 2018 01:51
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Shitenshi posted:. They let David, who unrepentantly murdered most of Division 3 a year prior, walk around unshackled.
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Jun 14, 2018 02:13
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Danger posted:They let David, who unrepentantly murdered most of Division 3 a year prior, walk around unshackled. that goes in full contradiction to what season one stated, that the shadow king was skinriding David on that occasion (down to the special imaging thing showing the demon with yellow eyes)
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Jun 14, 2018 02:18
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Also the purpose of Division 3, specifically, is to counteract existential mutant threats. Shadow King is the devil they know, and he was kicking around for centuries until Professor X felt compelled to do something about it. David on the other hand is a wild card who was barely tolerated as long as he seemed stable and cooperative. He's more dangerous -- not more evil, but remember, it's Division 3. His friends aside, they don't give a poo poo about "more evil." And then he started secretly working with the enemy, taking orders from the future, planting images in people's head in order to pull off a Rube Goldbergian assassination plot, having conversations with himself, and then, finally, horrifically betrayed the one person they all thought he was completely loyal and committed to. And his friends? Their position was still "please, let us help you, you're not well." Even after what he did to Syd. And yeah it's with a proverbial gun to his head, yeah it's with Farouk set free as a desperate last-ditch safeguard, but again, Cary, Kerry, and Syd probably aren't the ones making executive decisions here.
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Jun 14, 2018 02:23
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"Agree to treatment or we will terminate you" is NOT offering help. That's backing someone into a corner, all the while his lifelong tormentor is standing off to the side having apparently been given a pass. We've seen a future where David is on his meds, and he's a zombie incapable of doing anything. We've also seen a future where he is left alone and off his meds, and he's a relatively harmless hobo (unless provoked). If they truly wanted to offer him help, they would have been upfront and honest with him and not put him into a cage where his choices are "zombie or death." David has constantly shown that he will listen and that he wants to do the right thing, but struggles in understanding what that is or how to get it. And lest we forget that Division 3 still had Lenny locked up. Why? If she was the Shadow King's thrall, well they're letting him run around. She was instrumental in helping to capture him in the first place. She's been one of the Shadow King's victims, and they treated her worse than they did him. And come on, implanting suggestions to help defeat the enemy because the enemy can read minds isn't bad. He didn't force them to do anything. But the Shadow King forced Melanie to assault Clark, then kidnapped Syd, and ordered Oliver to pretend to still be possessed while he possessed Melanie. It is way loving stupid to have the Shadow King walking around freely after all of this.
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Jun 14, 2018 02:43
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Danger posted:They let David, who unrepentantly murdered most of Division 3 a year prior, walk around unshackled. Yes, on the premise they have a common enemy. Per the murders, they took his sister hostage to get at him. And then there's that it was Farouk who was in charge that time. The same Farouk who would later kill even more of them this season. But guess what, he behaved himself the whole time to the point he captured their mutual enemy and excised the delusion monster. They are far from the same. So immediately turning on him at the drop of a hat based on a context free video leading them to conclude he's an unstable rear end in a top hat, yet ignoring the threat Farouk represents of being both an unstable rear end in a top hat and a delusion monster while also conveniently throwing out that common enemy clause seems really shaky. Leave the crown on him while David is still under lock and key or put them both under lockdown for crying out loud. None of this goofy half-hearted, one or the other shifting alliances bullshit. When they introduced that Farouk was somehow a hero in the future, they really wrote themselves into a corner here to the point that it seems like they had to definitively have them both at opposite places by this season's end instead of leaving this storyline to a later date (like the future, HUH-HUH). Shitenshi fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 02:46
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Yeah, I don't get why he didn't at least have to keep wearing the crown-thing to suppress his powers. It's just asking for trouble, and it was guaranteed to piss off David at a moment they were trying to get through to him.
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Jun 14, 2018 02:49
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Problematic Pigeon posted:Yeah, I don't get why he didn't at least have to keep wearing the crown-thing to suppress his powers. It's just asking for trouble, and it was guaranteed to piss off David at a moment they were trying to get through to him. Maybe it was all on purpose to turn Legion into what he really is
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Jun 14, 2018 02:55
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Barreft posted:Maybe it was all on purpose to turn Legion into what he really is I have no doubt it's what Farouk wanted, but that's kind of a dick move from the others. Unless we're supposed to think he's literally brainwashed all of them instead of played them against David like a fiddle, but I don't think that was supposed to be the takeaway.
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Jun 14, 2018 02:59
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Codependent Poster posted:We've also seen a future where he is left alone and off his meds, and he's a relatively harmless hobo (unless provoked). Unless provoked, in which case he could literally end the world. I don't think you guys are grasping how bad "god-like powers" and "unmedicated schizophrenic" are as a combination. Farouk is more vile but he's not "unstable." He wants power, obedience, and luxury and would be bored out of his wits without people to rule over. Aside from the fact that he's one man with psychic powers and not a nation-state, we deal with that every day anyways.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:05
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Problematic Pigeon posted:I have no doubt it's what Farouk wanted, but that's kind of a dick move from the others. I still don't get Fukuyama and the weirdass moustache girls. So maybe this is something he wants, and the Kerryss/Syd don't even know. I'm thinking they let Farouk in like that on purpose. I could be so wrong, this show is just such a mindfuck you could say David is now a gerbil and I'd accept it and like it.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:05
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I have zero interest in Season 3 which is amazing considering how much I had been looking forward to Season 2. I mean that takes some god drat effort.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:14
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Unless provoked, in which case he could literally end the world. Yeah imagine Trump who could control everyone's reality and just destroy the world. ... I mean I guess that's true still, but using psychic powers instead and with multiple personality voices telling him all kinds of random poo poo to do.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:17
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