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Review swap culture is, perhaps, the worst part of the serial ecosystem.
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Jun 12, 2018 05:36
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Milky Moor posted:Review swap culture is, perhaps, the worst part of the serial ecosystem.
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Jun 12, 2018 05:45
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PetraCore posted:You mean, like, between writers? I can see how that'd be a problem because if you're honest about not liking another writer's stuff but they positively reviewed your stuff it presumably causes problems in a tight-knit community. It's the transparent 'like for like' sort of softball swaps that just make me shake my head. There was a recent review of a work that basically said 'Better than Wildbow, he should sit up and take notice' and I went and read the whole work and it's just... really badly written on a very basic level. Proofreading, spelling, general structuring, etc. etc. And it's not like the story or plot make up for it. There's nothing wrong with swapping but I think it hinges on honesty.
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Jun 12, 2018 06:03
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Milky Moor posted:It's the transparent 'like for like' sort of softball swaps that just make me shake my head. There was a recent review of a work that basically said 'Better than Wildbow, he should sit up and take notice' and I went and read the whole work and it's just... really badly written on a very basic level. Proofreading, spelling, general structuring, etc. etc. And it's not like the story or plot make up for it.
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Jun 12, 2018 07:00
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PetraCore posted:I assume there's some people who just don't like Wildbow because he's 'arrogant' or w/e. Meanwhile I'm like... he's extremely consistent and prolific and is definitely a good writer even though I think it's fair to not like his stuff, I don't want him to be the only big author in the web serial scene but I don't really get any spite towards him, either. Or maybe they just cited Wildbow because he's the name a rando would be most likely to now? Yeah, the consistency and sheer number of words are big reasons why Wildbow got as big as he did. The other thing is that he finished Worm and moved onto Pact, then finished Pact, and so on. There are actually a fair few people who won't read a serial until it finishes, strangely enough. I think it's a shame he stopped reviewing other serials because he's one of the few who was prepared to take bad stories to task. A serial author sent me an email telling me that Wildbow 'has to be' an amalgam of different people. It was, apparently 'the only thing' that could explain his popularity. Web serial conspiracists, I guess. 
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Jun 12, 2018 07:25
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I don’t actually like wildbows writing. I think pact and twig were crap and wards is not very engaging. I like other poo poo stories that are objectively worse but there’s just something i don’t like with wildbows writing.
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Jun 12, 2018 08:23
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is it how it comes off like it was written by a robot, especially when he tries doing humor or relationships?
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Jun 12, 2018 08:26
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Angry Walrus posted:is it how it comes off like it was written by a robot, especially when he tries doing humor or relationships? I don’t know. It’s like when someone is having a discussion or argument he’s written the end result first and people are just saying poo poo to get to that point?
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Jun 12, 2018 08:35
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I've always found Wildbow's writing okay, but very inconsistent. I wish he'd find an editor he trusted, spend more time and take multiple passes at each chapter instead of writing and posting in one go, and maybe work on his storytelling and narrative structure a bit more than not at all. That sound really negative, so I should note that I enjoyed the heck out of worm and twig and haven't found pact or ward bad enough that I want to stop reading, but even my very favorite chapters are full of technical and structural blips that frustrate me.
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Jun 12, 2018 09:02
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Wildbow's writing is very robotic. I don't want to say flat, but it reminds me of someone describing a sequence of storyboards or a fight scene from a television show. He also has a bit of a habit of over-explaining things and finding clever ways to disguise fairly bland exposition and/or shaky worldbuilding. This is actually part of the reason I dig Colin and Dragon because his style actually feels like how they view the world. It's a big reason why I don't like Taylor, because I never really accepted the 'Queen Administrator shard makes her so good at noticing things and she puts bugs on everything unknowingly (but no one notices her doing this)' element of his style as anything other than a crutch so he can have very long fight scenes like Armsmaster/Leviathan (it's over 2000 words, just that fight) that can be recounted in intricate detail. It's that feeling -- which I see called character-as-camera -- which suffuses a lot of his work. There's also a ton of stuff that you can cut entirely, or winnow down. His stuff is okay. It's not bad and I've read worse books by published authors*. There're a lot of serial writers who are worse, particularly ones who are trying to imitate the Wildbow Model. But I'd struggle to call him good. Like, don't get me wrong, I actually envy his ability to write updates that are, like, 7000 words long. I can't do it. * -- I think it was called The Emperor's Blades? Is it okay for me to say this? 
Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 09:31
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Milky Moor posted:Wildbow's writing is very robotic. I don't want to say flat, but it reminds me of someone describing a sequence of storyboards or a fight scene from a television show. This is just supposition but I know a lot of his pre-serial writing experience came from building and running tabletop campaigns for people, and I wonder if he doesn't subconsciously use the same planning and storyboarding process for longform fiction. A lot of the more absurdly complex or oddly-structured scenes make way more sense if you pretend it's someone describing it out loud to a group.
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Jun 12, 2018 09:50
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Omi no Kami posted:This is just supposition but I know a lot of his pre-serial writing experience came from building and running tabletop campaigns for people, and I wonder if he doesn't subconsciously use the same planning and storyboarding process for longform fiction. A lot of the more absurdly complex or oddly-structured scenes make way more sense if you pretend it's someone describing it out loud to a group. Absolutely. The Armsmaster/Leviathan fight does this. We get Taylor seeing the fight then, essentially, the prose switches to third-person on Armsmaster. Taylor's watching from the corner of a building (out of sight enough that Armsmaster and Leviathan can't see her, but not enough that she can't see the whole thing play out [???????]) but we never get any idea that she's struggling to see what's going on, that the scene is chaotic because of the rain and all of Armsmaster's leaping about, that she's in pain from having her arm broken (except for a brief mention towards the middle of the fight) and the only time we really return to the first-person perspective is after Armsmaster gets his arm ripped off. She becomes a camera. There's a little bit where the prose stops to tell us she's feeling awe, but we don't feel her awe. You're in her shoes because the story tells you you're in her shoes, but you're not actually in her shoes. But this is all close reading stuff.
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Jun 12, 2018 10:19
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TWI: So there has been a plot development chapter and drat. Everybody is going to fight so hard for peace, there is going to be nothing left afterwards.
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Jun 12, 2018 11:50
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I was actually somewhat surprised to learn that Mother of Learning was written by a non-native speaker. Then again maybe I've been reading too many web serials/litRPG's and have become desensitized to clunky writing.
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Jun 12, 2018 13:24
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There's definitely technical problems with Wildbow's writing and I think a huge part of that is that he doesn't do a lot of editing before posting a chapter, because he values getting a chapter out above getting a chapter perfect. I think his greatest strengths as a writer are his strong characterization and creative worldbuilding, and his big weakness for me is probably pacing. Twig had really excellent, firm pacing, but I get the impression that the fast pacing there was one of the things he was experimenting with and finds harder to stick to normally. I've actually never completely finished Pact because it was doing so little for me.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:05
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Gladi posted:TWI: So there has been a plot development chapter and drat. Everybody is going to fight so hard for peace, there is going to be nothing left afterwards. That's how they're building it up but if the mage is whom I think it is, then as someone pointed out in the comments, basically everyone Magnolia is gathering up is more inclined to listen to Erin or Ryoka than her. Draw your own conclusions from that  .
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Jun 12, 2018 15:27
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Argue posted:That's how they're building it up but if the mage is whom I think it is, then as someone pointed out in the comments, basically everyone Magnolia is gathering up is more inclined to listen to Erin or Ryoka than her. Draw your own conclusions from that That would be pretty funny.
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Jun 12, 2018 18:19
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The mage is definitely, 100%, Teriarch. Like, that's barely even a spoiler.
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Jun 13, 2018 01:12
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I wasn't sure because she specifically mentioned an Archmage earlier in the chapter, and that one refused her. Plus she mentioned that the one she has in mind is a druid.
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Jun 13, 2018 03:46
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Argue posted:I wasn't sure because she specifically mentioned an Archmage earlier in the chapter, and that one refused her. Plus she mentioned that the one she has in mind is a druid. i thought the druid is her gardener
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Jun 13, 2018 03:54
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PracGuide: And here's the Grey Pilgrim to gently caress up peace negotiations. Also I just re-read the discussion between the Wandering Bard and Anaxares at the end of the last book, and it's pretty glorious still. The proclamation of the Wandering Bard as treasonous has to have some sort of narrative weight here, I'd not be surprised if it needs a new meatsuit after that, what with the last one being a citizen of the League and technically under the Heirarch's authority. I also think it really inspires a true hatred of the Bard.
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Jun 13, 2018 06:11
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SerSpook posted:PracGuide: And here's the Grey Pilgrim to gently caress up peace negotiations. Yeah before that I thought Wandering Bard was an interesting character if a bit one note on the compulsive alcoholism after that I just hated them.
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Jun 13, 2018 18:13
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I like how Catherine just totally hosed up and pointlessly lost the ability to get her third aspect. From what I can tell, that aspect would have been some ridiculous thing, like Contessa's power from Worm, but without the ability to perfectly follow the steps she learned from her power. Since someone mentioned fist clenching in PracGuide, I've been counting them. I'm up to 6 in, I think, 20 chapters or so. edit: Make that 7 edit2: lol, Bard: quote:“You kinda grew into the villain thing, didn’t you Cat?” the Bard mused. “I mean, you’ve got the distinctive wound down with your limp. You’ve already got a notable tic with the clenching fingers thing, so basically all you need now is a catchphrase and you’re set.” I guess the author is actually aware of the clenching thing? Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jun 13, 2018 |
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Jun 13, 2018 19:33
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SerSpook posted:PracGuide: And here's the Grey Pilgrim to gently caress up peace negotiations. anaxares is the best character and bellerophon is the best polity imo the scene where he demands his own execution for treason is even better than him telling off the Bard
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Jun 14, 2018 01:27
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GreyjoyBastard posted:anaxares is the best character and bellerophon is the best polity They really are just amazing. Ytlaya posted:I like how Catherine just totally hosed up and pointlessly lost the ability to get her third aspect. From what I can tell, that aspect would have been some ridiculous thing, like Contessa's power from Worm, but without the ability to perfectly follow the steps she learned from her power. At least it isn't copacetic. The solution to the third aspect is definitely one of the best parts of the entire story, by far. Based on what we learn about aspects later on, the Seek aspect probably would have been nice but limited. Certainly nothing on the level of Take for usefulness, or Fall for sheer power. SerSpook fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 07:43
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Finally reading Tuesday's Ward and Boy is Chris's compartmentalization and frantic attempts to keep everything balanced physically and emotionally covering something that's going to have to be dealt with or blow sometime. I don't know if there's better ways to treat the kind of issues he has than what's already happened, though. I mean, he got to be the client of one of the top parahuman therapists in the setting, someone was putting resources towards him, but whatever happened to make his body be literally tearing itself apart doesn't sound easy to fix. I wonder if he has to change so often not just for the emotional aspect, but because it 'resets' his body? Heals up the damage done by whatever base effect is there? But he's also implied before that changing can make it worse, right?
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Jun 14, 2018 19:03
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PetraCore posted:Finally reading Tuesday's Ward and seems like he’s implying it’s not his power that’s messing up his body, no?
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Jun 14, 2018 19:53
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builds character posted:seems like he’s implying it’s not his power that’s messing up his body, no?
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Jun 14, 2018 21:37
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I've always felt like Worm's whole setting is really unfair in how some people get super lovely powers that inherently ruin their lives, like Chris, Bitch, or Burnscar (or to a lesser extent someone like Tattletale, who can't have normal human relationships due to the info from her power), while others get powers that pretty much have no downsides* (like Vista or pre-blob Victoria). * Stemming from the power, at least; obviously pretty much all capes have psychological issues from the event that caused them to trigger, but not all have powers with direct negative side effects
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Jun 15, 2018 02:26
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Ytlaya posted:I've always felt like Worm's whole setting is really unfair in how some people get super lovely powers that inherently ruin their lives, like Chris, Bitch, or Burnscar (or to a lesser extent someone like Tattletale, who can't have normal human relationships due to the info from her power), while others get powers that pretty much have no downsides* (like Vista or pre-blob Victoria). The interesting thing is that the cauldron capes and formulas are a good insight into what happens when there's no living shard regulating the power usage and it's super duper more unfair than what we've seen with natural triggers. Most people die horribly, and of those who live, most end up as Case 53s. The only reason sold vials are at all stable and safe is because Cauldron figured out ways to induce their own regulation. But that also seems to be primarily a risk of physical mutation? Of course, given what's implied in the latest chapter, Chris' power might only gently caress him up half as much as previously thought, but that's still super bad and life ruining.
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Jun 15, 2018 03:18
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PracGuide: Man, I can't wait to see technical crusader in service to practical evil Catherine. It will be glorious. And gently caress you again Pilgrim.
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Jun 15, 2018 05:21
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I'm about halfway through mother of learning (the clunky writing that was really bugging me smoothed out within 10-15 chapters-it still has problems, but they aren't horribly distracting). Man that's a fun story once you get around the writing issues and some of the excessive reliance on genre tropes. It seems pretty obviously like the author's first major work, and it has some of the standard format/pacing/structure speed bumps you'd expect, but all in all I'm really enjoying it. I'm only about halfway through(Zach just came back), and my only major complaint so far is that revealing that the entire world is apparently a simulation sucks a lot of the stakes and narrative tension out of the room. Unless everything is a long con on Zach/red robe guy's part, I no longer have any reason to care about what happens to any of the characters who aren't actually human, and that's kind of a bummer.
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Jun 15, 2018 10:35
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Omi no Kami posted:I'm about halfway through mother of learning (the clunky writing that was really bugging me smoothed out within 10-15 chapters-it still has problems, but they aren't horribly distracting). Man that's a fun story once you get around the writing issues and some of the excessive reliance on genre tropes. It seems pretty obviously like the author's first major work, and it has some of the standard format/pacing/structure speed bumps you'd expect, but all in all I'm really enjoying it. I'm only about halfway through(Zach just came back), and my only major complaint so far is that revealing that the entire world is apparently a simulation sucks a lot of the stakes and narrative tension out of the room. Unless everything is a long con on Zach/red robe guy's part, I no longer have any reason to care about what happens to any of the characters who aren't actually human, and that's kind of a bummer. How so? It's not like the simulated people are not still people with their own thoughts and feelings, Zorian himself is just a simulation after all. And any resolution to the situation where Zorian manages to escape the simulation either requires mind wiping and hijacking the orginal non-simulated Zorian back in the real world, or figuring out some way to smuggle people out of the simulation. So the the question becomes whether they can figure out a way to smuggle people out of the simulation, and if they can, how many people they can smuggle out, and who they're going to pick to fill that quota, because it's unlikely to be large enough for the population of an entire simulated world.
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Jun 15, 2018 15:39
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Man, Catherine’s going to fake being part of a heroic narrative hard enough that she actually becomes a hero, isn’t she.
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Jun 15, 2018 17:34
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Omi no Kami posted:I'm about halfway through mother of learning (the clunky writing that was really bugging me smoothed out within 10-15 chapters-it still has problems, but they aren't horribly distracting). Man that's a fun story once you get around the writing issues and some of the excessive reliance on genre tropes. It seems pretty obviously like the author's first major work, and it has some of the standard format/pacing/structure speed bumps you'd expect, but all in all I'm really enjoying it. I'm only about halfway through(Zach just came back), and my only major complaint so far is that revealing that the entire world is apparently a simulation sucks a lot of the stakes and narrative tension out of the room. Unless everything is a long con on Zach/red robe guy's part, I no longer have any reason to care about what happens to any of the characters who aren't actually human, and that's kind of a bummer. I felt like it's kind of the opposite, and that it's actually super hosed up that his friends/family effectively die every restart. This is briefly touched upon when Taiven gets all depressed/upset at one point (since she realizes that if Zorian is telling the truth, she's basically gonna die at the end of the restart). If anything, I feel like other characters were unrealistically chill about their situations. It also introduces the whole dilemma of how the protagonist will manage to escape and continue living when he isn't even the "original" Zorian. edit: Regarding PracGuide, Black and Catherine just talked about how Creation enforces a balance between Good and Evil, with the whole Procer/Praesi situation, but I'm not sure how the ridiculously powerful gnome and dwarf civilizations fit into this equation. I also feel like Black's perspective on evil always losing might be a bit biased. You can also flip things around and say that Good can never truly defeat Evil. From Good's perspective, Evil nations will basically always keep returning and starting new wars, so it's also pretty futile from their end. I can sympathize with his feelings about heroes' tendency to come out ahead in engagements when compared with villains, though. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jun 15, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 17:44
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So both the Gods Above and Gods Below are massive assholes, and they, together, created the Narrative, but I'm sort of curious at how flexible the Narrative is as far as supporting a 'hero' that is probably explicitly despised and loathed by the Gods Above/The Heavens. Is getting a name explicitly the blessing of the Gods Above or Below? Or did they just set this thing in motion and it can create Names without them, and they can just choose to add a little extra juice to it or nudge the board a bit. I'm mainly wondering since a lot of the bullshit luck Heroes have seems to be referred to as the The Heavens fudging the numbers, and if Catherine becomes a hero narratively, is she going to actually be able to get the full powers of a Name? Or, I guess you could just say the Gods Below find this hilarious and are willing to back Cat as a 'hero' just to watch the other heroes and Gods Above squirm. Because I can't see the angels backing her, unless it's some sort of attempt to force her using the narrative of a hero to influence her personality and force her to repent.
Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jun 15, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 19:29
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Ytlaya posted:I felt like it's kind of the opposite, and that it's actually super hosed up that his friends/family effectively die every restart. This is briefly touched upon when Taiven gets all depressed/upset at one point (since she realizes that if Zorian is telling the truth, she's basically gonna die at the end of the restart). If anything, I feel like other characters were unrealistically chill about their situations. I am pretty sure it's also meant as a meta-commentary on the nature of stories. Black himself mentions the disparity between stories of plucky heroes overcoming all odds (even if they sometimes need a deus ex machina to rescue them), compared to who villains always lose right before the finish line. But yeah, Black himself is hella biased, you can even chart his biases by his goals and behavior. A Dunni (ostracized minority) commoner (that lived in a freehold with no noble supervision) who is culturally evil (and Praes has a long storied history of getting dunked on by Callow) - seeks to win once and tries to do so by integrating the Orcs and Goblins as part of Praes and would like nothing more than to set fire to all Praesi nobility.
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Jun 15, 2018 20:29
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Oo Koo posted:How so? It's not like the simulated people are not still people with their own thoughts and feelings, Zorian himself is just a simulation after all. And any resolution to the situation where Zorian manages to escape the simulation either requires mind wiping and hijacking the orginal non-simulated Zorian back in the real world, or figuring out some way to smuggle people out of the simulation. So the the question becomes whether they can figure out a way to smuggle people out of the simulation, and if they can, how many people they can smuggle out, and who they're going to pick to fill that quota, because it's unlikely to be large enough for the population of an entire simulated world. Mainly it's because I'm a terrible person.  I know (assume?) that the souls in the simulated people are real- they must be, since the guardian said that one of its jobs was to keep non-controller souls from escaping the simulation and body snatching their original, but the fact that they're all doomed every loop anyway (unless they get a temporary marker, since I assume that was a setup for whats-his-face deputizing all of his student buddies and making a force to storm out of the simulation) makes them feel like consequence-free victims. For the same reason, I have zero problems with Xvim's plan to run around the world mind-raping every single talented mage for info; it's a monstrous act, but it concerns me more for the psychological toll it could have on main character guy than it does as an unethical act.If they were their actual flesh-and-blood selves, I would constantly be on the edge of my seat going 'Oh noes, what if <some random, awful act> sticks, and this ends up being the definitive version of events,' but since everyone constantly dies their fates are only interesting to the extent that they impact the people with markers and volition independent of the loop.
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Jun 15, 2018 23:28
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Omi no Kami posted:Mainly it's because I'm a terrible person. There's stuff that happens later that adds potential concerns and issues that have to be tackled that the loop alone doesn't solve. Plus remember that once they get out they only have one shot at doing everything right, no do overs. Not sure how far you are in though, how much have they learned about the simulation?
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Jun 15, 2018 23:34
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Cinara posted:There's stuff that happens later that adds potential concerns and issues that have to be tackled that the loop alone doesn't solve. Plus remember that once they get out they only have one shot at doing everything right, no do overs. Not sure how far you are in though, how much have they learned about the simulation? I'm not too far in, maybe halfway through the series? They just talked with the guardian for the first time, realized they're in a simulation, and suspect that the red robe guy already left (which I'm convinced isn't true). They've had I think two loops since then: one where they tell the adults and mount an all-out assault to stop the ritual as it occurs, and the loop I'm reading now where they run around stealing and interrogating famous people and generally stirring up poo poo.
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Jun 16, 2018 00:27
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