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Just caught up with a friend who's a crim lawyer, planning to ask him for advice and maybe any tips on job openings. He ended up asking me. 
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Jun 13, 2018 05:50
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Whitlam posted:Just caught up with a friend who's a crim lawyer, planning to ask him for advice and maybe any tips on job openings. He ended up asking me. I'm sorry I find this morbidly funny. Maybe start up a new firm together? If one of you is blind with superpowers and the other is a kind of chubby jerk, I think you could do really well.
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Jun 13, 2018 07:32
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Nice piece of fish posted:I'm sorry I find this morbidly funny. Nah it's pretty funny. The reason he asked me is because he's looking to gtfo. I was toying with the idea of applying for graduate lawyer jobs but after talking to him today I'm very strongly considering not doing that at all and just staying in government. Less job security but more money and fewer hours. Plus no billables.
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Jun 13, 2018 09:14
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Funemployment is way better when you’re being financially supported by your live-in ex-wife that you’ve reconciled with.
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Jun 13, 2018 12:03
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Is anyone else doing immigration now? This year has been getting pretty brutal and the only silver lining is that I didn't go to law school. Whitlam posted:Just caught up with a friend who's a crim lawyer, planning to ask him for advice and maybe any tips on job openings. He ended up asking me.
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Jun 13, 2018 14:51
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I off-handedly agreed to do a 'presentation' for the paralegals, and come to find out I signed up to do an hour loving long webinar CLE on Discovery, what the gently caress.
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Jun 13, 2018 14:56
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Yesterday I "represented" two clients at veteran's treatment court. I literally read a script with a list of charges. One guy had already been convicted and was serving probation, but couldn't get a job because he lost his license due to the court fees and FL's liberal license suspension policy. He'll hopefully have his license back by friday and should have gainful employment in the next month or so. The other guy had 17 charges dating back over a decade for various DUIs and driving with a suspended/no license fines. That was a fun list to read off. This guy won't ever get a license again, but he'll get these charges out from over his head, out of collections, and can get on with life. Got to say poo poo in front of a judge and add a line to my resume, so good for that at least. There's a job opening for post-conviction capital criminal proceedings second chair. Instead of common law habeas corpus, florida has government contracted people who handle all post-capital conviction proceedings. After any death penalty sentence, the case gets referred to these people for research into any appealable issue that could overturn the conviction or death sentence. Seems like it would be bother a horrible job and one that actually benefits society in a way. I'm sending in my resume because gently caress it might as well.
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Jun 13, 2018 15:09
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Mr. Nice! posted:Yesterday I "represented" two clients at veteran's treatment court. I literally read a script with a list of charges. One guy had already been convicted and was serving probation, but couldn't get a job because he lost his license due to the court fees and FL's liberal license suspension policy. He'll hopefully have his license back by friday and should have gainful employment in the next month or so. Post conviction work is super interesting in the sense that there are a number of discreet clocks operating at the same time any legal timers are counting down with regards to timeliness and the like. I've really enjoyed all the work I've done with the innocence project so far and am looking forward to getting back at it after the summer ends
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Jun 13, 2018 16:15
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the summer bonuses are picking up steam, as are the higher raises for senior associates 
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Jun 13, 2018 17:34
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 if i'm reading these statutes right every state lawyer job is by statutory definition exempt from the state veteran's preference requirement unless it's specifically working for one of the schools that are part of the state system.I've been pissing in the wind even submitting that additional paperwork with job applications it would seem.
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Jun 13, 2018 17:48
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Lol my job just threatened staff for discussing the (publicly available) salary information of other staff as relating to themselves. They tried to enforce pay secrecy.
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Jun 13, 2018 18:08
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Lol my job just threatened staff for discussing the (publicly available) salary information of other staff as relating to themselves. They tried to enforce pay secrecy. Isn't discussing pay specifically protected? (Not an employment lawyer)
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Jun 13, 2018 18:13
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Yeah but he works for the state of texas and when have pesky things like federal laws ever mattered to them?
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Jun 13, 2018 18:14
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Mr. Nice! posted:Yeah but he works for the state of texas and when have pesky things like federal laws ever mattered to them? It's true Texas never created joinder
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Jun 13, 2018 18:16
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Mr. Nice! posted:Yeah but he works for the state of texas and when have pesky things like federal laws ever mattered to them? Sherman should have turned right
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Jun 13, 2018 18:17
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Yeah I stepped in and was like "yo go talk to legal or hr before you do that poo poo"
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Jun 13, 2018 18:34
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The college of law annual alumni drive is almost up and they've gone from sending me nice little post cards and emails to now calling me to ask me to give.
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Jun 13, 2018 19:16
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This streak of opposing parties not showing up for their family law hearings is making my life super easy. Karma's due to spike my wheel any day now.
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Jun 13, 2018 20:25
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Eminent Domain posted:This streak of opposing parties not showing up for their family law hearings is making my life super easy. Karma's due to spike my wheel any day now. I hate defaults in family law. They're much more trouble in the long run because the defaulted party goes "This is bullshit I never got my day in court!! This isn't justice! I'm not doing this poo poo!" And turns into a loving lump or challenges the judgment. I lost my poo poo, laughing in court. I was doing a default judgment today. My client was appearing over court call. He would not shut the gently caress up. Every question I asked him would result in a rambling three minute speech. I have reasonable control of him and shut him down. Then the judge starts asking minor questions. And the guy would not shut the gently caress up. And the judge is waving his hands and rolling his eyes and making hand gestures at me trying to get him to stop. And I'm just losing my poo poo silently laughing, shoulders shaking and head in my hands in front of the courtroom. A good day.
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Jun 13, 2018 20:28
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Ashcans posted:Is anyone else doing immigration now? This year has been getting pretty brutal and the only silver lining is that I didn't go to law school. My pro bono practice is almost entirely immigration as I'm familiar with it from my pre-biglaw days.Literally received a draft final brief three days before A-B- was released entirely dependent on A-R-C-G-, the case racism elf overrules.
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Jun 13, 2018 20:40
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JohnCompany posted:My pro bono practice is almost entirely immigration as I'm familiar with it from my pre-biglaw days.Literally received a draft final brief three days before A-B- was released entirely dependent on A-R-C-G-, the case racism elf overrules. I pretty much stopped doing pro bono immigration work because god, i can't suggest anyone interact with this government and hope the law is followed, and where they're in custody would just be too loving depressing
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Jun 13, 2018 20:53
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evilweasel posted:I pretty much stopped doing pro bono immigration work because god, i can't suggest anyone interact with this government and hope the law is followed, and where they're in custody would just be too loving depressing it was depressing back in 2007; at this point everyone I know still doing it is either in total despair or rants for hours
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Jun 13, 2018 21:14
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Mr. Nice! posted:Yeah but he works for the state of texas and when have pesky things like federal laws ever mattered to them? Specifically, the NLRA doesn't apply to public employees. I can only speculate as to what protections Texas has put in place to fill that void (lol).
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Jun 13, 2018 21:14
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Adar posted:it was depressing back in 2007; at this point everyone I know still doing it is either in total despair or rants for hours right now im mulling over who i have to suck up to in order to get the S.D. Tex us attorney position and then arrest everyone involved in this while putting out press releases about who everyone who has been stealing children from their parents is, exactly what they did, large color photographs of them, their address, etc in 2020
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Jun 13, 2018 21:16
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JohnCompany posted:My pro bono practice is almost entirely immigration as I'm familiar with it from my pre-biglaw days.Literally received a draft final brief three days before A-B- was released entirely dependent on A-R-C-G-, the case racism elf overrules. Even the business-side stuff which is generally pretty rote and reliable has been messed up with tons of sudden shifts and policy reverses. Adar posted:everyone I know still doing it is either in total despair or rants for hours
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Jun 13, 2018 21:22
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Vox Nihili posted:Specifically, the NLRA doesn't apply to public employees. I can only speculate as to what protections Texas has put in place to fill that void (lol). Texas wasn't the same kind of bad in the 70s 80s and early 90s. We have strong consumer protection statutes. Reverse mortgages were outlawed by the constitution (that has since changed). I bet we have something. Ultimately I think not discussing salaries fucks over labor versus management, but the friggin things are posted online.
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Jun 13, 2018 22:00
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Ashcans posted:Is anyone else doing immigration now? This year has been getting pretty brutal and the only silver lining is that I didn't go to law school. Yeah. I do defense and humanitarian relief at a nonprofit, also some policy advocacy. I’m tired and think about just giving up basically every day but it’s honestly a better job than most lawyer jobs 
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Jun 13, 2018 22:45
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Ashcans posted:We have a client who is in a similar situation. Her case wasn't great before (we're picking it up from the initial filing, which wasn't handled well) but now I just don't know. Current strategy: ask for a continuance, hope that the new date is in 2021 (viable at the NY Immigration Court) and see where the law is by then. It's all we got. And agreed. I'm hearing whispers that firms are no longer holding jobs pending an H-1 grant since they can't count on getting them anymore.
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Jun 13, 2018 22:45
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CaptainScraps posted:I hate defaults in family law. They're much more trouble in the long run because the defaulted party goes "This is bullshit I never got my day in court!! This isn't justice! I'm not doing this poo poo!" And turns into a loving lump or challenges the judgment. I mean, he can, sure, but the guy was at the last hearing when this date two weeks ago was set so the judge is probably gonna have a grand chuckle. The real bitch is serving him the new orders because I'm sure he's gonna duck service left and right now.
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Jun 14, 2018 02:15
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evilweasel posted:I pretty much stopped doing pro bono immigration work because god, i can't suggest anyone interact with this government and hope the law is followed, and where they're in custody would just be too loving depressing I’ve had multiple pro bono immigration clients ghost me even before their master calendar hearings and I can’t say I blame them.
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Jun 14, 2018 02:56
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Hey I have a lurker's general questions about how joining a private law firm works. If you hire on as an associate, is there a defined partner track of x number of years? With a salary that increases as you approach possible partnership? I'm assuming there are minimum requirements that must be met (# billable hours or whatever) but then a lot of subjective stuff that goes into your evaluations, whether you pissed off any important clients and how badly, do the partners like you, do you "fit in" with the corporate culture of the firm etc., overall perception of the value/quality as opposed to sheer quantity of your work If the firm identifies you as "definitely not partner material" early on are most pretty good about letting you know this early so as not to waste your time and theirs or do some like to suck extra cheap labor out of you as long as they can? If you are not voted in as a partner are there any second chances or are you pretty much done right then and there and need to move on? Can there be different lengths of time where "Joe Whiz Kid" made partner in only two years whereas the typical slog is five or whatever? If you become a partner, do you have to purchase shares in the firm, are they awarded to you, or are there all kinds of different arrangements depending on the firm? I'm assuming most partner contracts would spell out that it's still possible to be kicked out by a vote of the other partners if you gently caress up badly enough? Is revenue thereafter typically just based on what you bill or do some firms just split the revenue and expenses equally regardless? (I would imagine there is a big difference in hours billed between partners so it's hard for me to imagine a law firm just splitting the pot.) Do big firms hire any worker bee lawyers on a strictly salary, non partner track basis or is that considered a no-no in that prestigious firms want the perception that all the work they do is from partners or highly motivated associates who are heavily invested in the firm and its reputation? I realize I could just google a lot of this and I hope I didn't annoy everyone by asking, but I was hoping answers to some of the questions would be accompanied by amusing stories!
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Jun 14, 2018 03:12
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Zwabu posted:Hey I have a lurker's general questions about how joining a private law firm works. To all that: it depends. Also, don’t go to law school. You’re not going to make partner.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:15
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Look Sir Droids posted:Also, don’t go to law school. You’re not going to make partner. No danger of that. I'm a middle aged professional dude already well enmeshed in my own trap of bitterness and despair!
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Jun 14, 2018 03:19
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Zwabu is an anesthesiologist I think.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:23
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Zwabu is an anesthesiologist I think. Yeah, I find the topic interesting because I think a lot of medical practices (like my own!) have appropriated some of the structure and methods of law partnerships, sometimes in a cargo-cult kind of way.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:35
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Zwabu posted:Hey I have a lurker's general questions about how joining a private law firm works. In order: Yes, there's generally a set associate salary scale. Some places it can vary if you missed your hours badly or some other reason but there's a baseline basically all firms follow (which may or may not be in the process of getting bumped up). Your evaluations are basically did you bill a lot, do people think you're competent enough to trust with work, and are you a giant pain in the rear end to deal with. If you are stunningly incompetent you may still have good hours because we stuck you on drugery that doesn't require a brain but nobody wants people around who can't be trusted to pitch in. If you're antisocial, whatever; the question is if we have to work late with you are you terrible to deal with or are you fine. If you're "not partner material" you'll get pushed out earlier if you're just a bad lawyer; if they think that you're a good lawyer but will be crap at business development they'll probably keep you around until the partner vote. In many firms you can get put up twice, once you fail twice you should move on. Exactly how long it takes can vary - some firms have a strict schedule, others are more loosey-goosey and you may get put up once you're a 7/8th year or you may not. People don't really get made partner wildly ahead of schedule. If you become a partner you may not be an "equity partner" - you may be an income partner first (basically still just an employee, but with a better title). I believe most firms require you to purchase your shares if you become an equity partner. How firms split varies by firm but it's usually based on the business you bring in much more than the hours you work. Old-timey firms just pretty much split the pot, now it's mostly you get a percentage of the business you bring in. Firms can have "staff attorneys" who are like associates but not on partner track and are paid worse. They can also have "of counsel" who are sort of permanent senior associates - they're paid as well or better as senior associates and are former associates who didn't make partner and may make partner later or may not, but are no longer on a strict "up or out" thing. That heavily varies from firm to firm.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:40
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Zwabu posted:Yeah, I find the topic interesting because I think a lot of medical practices (like my own!) have appropriated some of the structure and methods of law partnerships, sometimes in a cargo-cult kind of way. Sure, welcome and I hope you get the answers you're curious about. I like professionals cross posting.
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Jun 14, 2018 04:12
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Zwabu posted:Hey I have a lurker's general questions about how joining a private law firm works. The answer to all of your questions truly is “is depends.” All firms are different but many are similar. You have to understand that the essential lifeblood of a law firm is clients. Revenues in the form of repeat business, people and companies who need lawyers regularly and, ideally, in high volume (whether that means lots of individual matters, or fewer very big and complex matters). Law firms need a continuous flow of client business to stay alive. And clients either have a relationship with a lawyer, or a relationship with a firm. The bigger the client/firm, the more likely the client is institutional, meaning they don’t care who does their work as long as it’s someone at the firm. This principle underlies the answers to all of your questions. Answering this question, most firms start lawyers out as associates, and increase their salaries year over year. Some firms have written guidelines for partnership, most don’t. Usually at larger firms it goes something like seven years experience, then promotion to non-equity or “income” partner—essentially a senior associate with a title to help develop business, but with no ownership interest. Still on salary, still an employee, will not share in percentage of firm profits. 2-3 years as income partner, under review, and then the lawyer is eligible for admission as a full equity partner, usually based on a vote of the partnership. Assuming the lawyer meets whatever expectations the firm has in terms of business development and revenues (usually at a minimum an equity partner must bring in enough consistent business to pay for his own salary and overhead, ideally with some profit on top), then the lawyer becomes an equity partner, sharing in the profits and losses of the firm. Zwabu posted:I'm assuming there are minimum requirements that must be met (# billable hours or whatever) but then a lot of subjective stuff that goes into your evaluations, whether you pissed off any important clients and how badly, do the partners like you, do you "fit in" with the corporate culture of the firm etc., overall perception of the value/quality as opposed to sheer quantity of your work Most firms have minimums, some harder than others. Usually in the 1950-2100 hours per year range. This and all those other shifting goalposts go into your evaluations. Piss off a client and you will hear about it. Might even be your death knell, though usually you just get yelled at/yanked from that client, then experience a sudden drop in assignments as word gets around. Zwabu posted:If the firm identifies you as "definitely not partner material" early on are most pretty good about letting you know this early so as not to waste your time and theirs or do some like to suck extra cheap labor out of you as long as they can? No way. They will get every last dime of productivity out of you until you quit or they tell you after 7-8 years “it just ain’t happening, friend.” Many firms are perfectly happy churning through associates—that’s actually their business model. No intention of ever admitting new partners, leveraging associate labor to maximize profits. Zwabu posted:If you are not voted in as a partner are there any second chances or are you pretty much done right then and there and need to move on? Can there be different lengths of time where "Joe Whiz Kid" made partner in only two years whereas the typical slog is five or whatever? Usually you get a few years for consideration. Some firms will let you hang around if you are profitable and there’s no reason to get rid of you. Some people make partner quicker than others, but it doesn’t always mean lawyer is bad or good or whatever. Sometimes you want to wait for an old fart to retire, so there is more equity to go around. Might be better to wait a year and take over 2% equity than cut the pie a little thinner. Zwabu posted:If you become a partner, do you have to purchase shares in the firm, are they awarded to you, or are there all kinds of different arrangements depending on the firm? Depends, but usually there is an equity buy in that typically is financed by the firm. E.g. $50,000 that you pay in installments over a couple years. Zwabu posted:I'm assuming most partner contracts would spell out that it's still possible to be kicked out by a vote of the other partners if you gently caress up badly enough? Of course. Zwabu posted:Is revenue thereafter typically just based on what you bill or do some firms just split the revenue and expenses equally regardless? (I would imagine there is a big difference in hours billed between partners so it's hard for me to imagine a law firm just splitting the pot.) Many different ways to do this. Lots of firms have point systems, governed by the partnership agreement. So for example, maybe each year every partner is evaluated on their (a) personal billable collections, (b) collections on matters they originated but did not personally work, meaning other lawyers and paralegals generated leveraged revenues on that lawyer’s business, and (c) intangibles—stuff like giving CLEs, serving on firm management committees, etc. The lawyer’s most recent three years are averaged and then a pro-rata share of profits is assigned to that partner for the upcoming year. Periodically, monthly or whatever, once all overhead is paid the partners take an advance draw on expected profits, as a percentage based on the point schedule. Then at the end of the year they distribute any remaining profits in accordance with their percentage ownership interest. Or, maybe there are three partners with 90% of the firms business, and they decide amongst themselves over martinis what everyone will get paid. Don’t like it? Bye. Zwabu posted:Do big firms hire any worker bee lawyers on a strictly salary, non partner track basis or is that considered a no-no in that prestigious firms want the perception that all the work they do is from partners or highly motivated associates who are heavily invested in the firm and its reputation? Yes, but obviously the initial goal is for everyone to blossom into a rainmaker so everyone makes more money. Realistically, there is only so much business to go around, so it’s usually “up or out.” Some firms have non-partner track “staff lawyer” positions. I shudder to think what that must be like. At some point, 45 year old associates or staff lawyers are just viewed as either untrustworthy, or are made “special counsel” or something so they don’t look too much like scrubs to clients and other lawyers. Phil Moscowitz fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 04:15
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Zwabu posted:Hey I have a lurker's general questions about how joining a private law firm works. quote:If you hire on as an associate, is there a defined partner track of x number of years? quote:With a salary that increases as you approach possible partnership? quote:I'm assuming there are minimum requirements that must be met (# billable hours or whatever) but then a lot of subjective stuff that goes into your evaluations, whether you pissed off any important clients and how badly, do the partners like you, do you "fit in" with the corporate culture of the firm etc., overall perception of the value/quality as opposed to sheer quantity of your work The firm will communicate none of this to you as a junior associate. Your reviews will consist of: "You're doing a good job. Here are your bonus numbers. See you." Reviews will generally only get real serious when you start getting closer to consideration. quote:If the firm identifies you as "definitely not partner material" early on are most pretty good about letting you know this early so as not to waste your time and theirs or do some like to suck extra cheap labor out of you as long as they can? quote:If you are not voted in as a partner are there any second chances or are you pretty much done right then and there and need to move on? Your partners should communicate the results of the vote to you and typically they will provide guidance. You might be great but some partners might feel you need a year or two more to prove yourself or get more experience. You might have been up for partner in litigation but litigation made too many partners last year and so they need to support corporate promotions this year so you might be able to make it next year. In these cases, you may make it in subsequent years and you will be encouraged to stay. The partners may have decided you have fatal flaw that prevents you from being a partner but would still like you to stay in a permanent staff role. You might be not great at handling clients, you may be an awesome writer but can't command a courtroom, your practice area might be too specialized and not produce enough revenue, etc. You will be asked to consider a staff position. This can be called counsel, senior counsel, of counsel etc. Your pay scale will be better than an associate and you won't have up or out pressure but you'll be a salaried employee. Lastly, you might have to future at the firm. You'll be told you didn't make it and be given time to leave. Typically, if they otherwise like the associate, they'll try to help them find an in-house position at a client so that they have a soft landing, don't end up at a competitor and can refer work back to their firm. quote:Can there be different lengths of time where "Joe Whiz Kid" made partner in only two years whereas the typical slog is five or whatever? quote:If you become a partner, do you have to purchase shares in the firm, are they awarded to you, or are there all kinds of different arrangements depending on the firm? quote:I'm assuming most partner contracts would spell out that it's still possible to be kicked out by a vote of the other partners if you gently caress up badly enough? quote:Is revenue thereafter typically just based on what you bill or do some firms just split the revenue and expenses equally regardless? (I would imagine there is a big difference in hours billed between partners so it's hard for me to imagine a law firm just splitting the pot.) quote:Do big firms hire any worker bee lawyers on a strictly salary, non partner track basis or is that considered a no-no in that prestigious firms want the perception that all the work they do is from partners or highly motivated associates who are heavily invested in the firm and its reputation? I'll try to think up some amusing stories that won't get anyone in trouble or leak any confidences. Yuns fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 05:28
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A few more. As a partner, I won't get a salary on a W-2. I get a K-1 partnership form. Unlike a W-2, no taxes of ANY kind are withheld. So I have to pay estimated tax myself for everything including social security, federal and state. I have to pay tax in every jurisdiction in which my firm has an office. So you may end up filing returns in multiple states and some foreign countries. Your compensation isn't considered a salary. Most firms consider it a draw. You are drawing from the profits of the partnership. Some firms give a regular draw on a periodic basis. Because profits are unknown until the books close, many times the regular draw (could be monthly) is modest and you get a large draw at the end of the year to distribute profits. Some firms have larger regular draws but this is in essence essentially a loan against which your year end draw is applied once you know your share of the profits. Other firms have far more infrequent draws and may even only pay quarterly etc. I get my capital contribution and retirement plans and benefits deducted from my draw. I pay full price for benefits. Associate? You get health insurance subsidized by the firm like any employee. Partner? Enjoy paying the full unsubsidized price. Profits per partner in AmLaw are kinda bullshit. Some firms openly share results with AmLaw but some do not and so AmLaw is guessing in some cases. Also PPP isn't pretax take home. it doesn't account for capital contributions, benefit costs etc. Lastly, as an associate you'll never know the structure of the partnership or see the partnership agreement or know partner compensation or the debt load of the firm until the day you make partner and HR shoves the partnership documentation in front of you to sign. You'll feel like you have to sign because at this point you've devoted 8 years or more of your life to get to this point, there is a big bump in compensation coming when you sign the documents and you can negotiate nothing. So instead of walking, almost everyone just signs. Yuns fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 05:42
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