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Barreft posted:I still don't get Fukuyama and the weirdass moustache girls. So maybe this is something he wants, and the Kerryss/Syd don't even know. I'm thinking they let Farouk in like that on purpose. Think about it from Division 3's point of view: - There's a new, incredibly powerful mutant out there (David) who has to be contained or destroyed because, as far as they know, he's mentally ill and prone to violence. - He disappears, and then all of his friends show up on their doorstep and tell them that David was being controlled by this other mutant who's been low-key creeping around forever and might have something to do with this teeth-chattering plague that's incapacitating tons of civilians and might be contagious. Okay, sure, that's the priority now. - David comes back, is apparently not mentally ill, is almost fully cooperative. Clark still hates his guts. Fukuyama was created out of hostility towards and fear of exactly this kind of mutant, but is willing to work with him for now since they have an understanding. Farouk is still the priority. - Woops, the teeth chattering plague wasn't actually Farouk, David is mentally ill after all, can't make up his mind if he's working with or against Farouk before finally deciding to murder him on his own initiative, and is willing to violate his lover's mind and torture his friend, nevermind what he might do to a total stranger or to someone like Clark who's always mutually hated him anyways. Also, the future version of his lover reports that he does in fact cause the apocalypse and Farouk's the only one who can stop him. Now, remember, you're an amoral government agency led by a guy whose purpose in life is "stop telepaths from killing / enslaving us all" and his lieutenant is another guy with a personal vendetta against David who's just been itching for him to gently caress up. Who's the priority now? Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 03:17
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I honestly don't understand what about this season makes people not want to watch a season 3.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:19
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flatluigi posted:I honestly don't understand what about this season makes people not want to watch a season 3. david bad guy, not good guy, boo hoo.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:21
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The show basically sets you up to experience David's dysphoria about who he is and what's happening to him and for some reason people think this is a) bad and b) an accident.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:24
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Problematic Pigeon posted:I have no doubt it's what Farouk wanted, but that's kind of a dick move from the others. Tbf we didn't get to see chapter 11 yet, which I think is significant, 'cause who knows what the gently caress happened there.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:24
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Unless provoked, in which case he could literally end the world. Meh, all he did was kill a bunch of assholes who were starting poo poo with him to begin with and the world is better off with. I'd call that pretty benign. Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't think you guys are grasping how bad "god-like powers" and "unmedicated schizophrenic" are as a combination. Farouk is more vile but he's not "unstable." He wants power, obedience, and luxury and would be bored out of his wits without people to rule over. Aside from the fact that he's one man with psychic powers and not a nation-state, we deal with that every day anyways. David's not crazy though, that's the thing. Disturbed, anti-heroic, but not crazy. That was actually determined in the storyline. As long as you treat him like a human being, especially now that Farouk isn't part of him anymore, he's seemed pretty decent. A mind parasite back at full power and let loose who fucks with people's heads and can turn them into his hapless puppets seemingly without anyone realizing it while punishing those who look at him the wrong way isn't unstable in the sense that he's not going to run into the White House wearing only a diaper and start singing Spice Girls songs. He's still an absolute taint who can't be trusted. David's reaction to suddenly being chained up while Farouk runs free is pretty goddamn rational, even if you buy the show's hamfisted idea that he somehow committed an unforgivable sin by mind wiping Syd who was ready to shoot him dead based on Hannibal Lector bullshit. To wit, if he was that dangerous as the show says, he would have killed every single one of Division 3 and his so-called friends after being freed, but he took Lenny and bolted.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:25
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Shitenshi posted:David's not crazy though, that's the thing. Disturbed, anti-heroic, but not crazy. That was actually determined in the storyline. This is the exact opposite of what was determined in the storyline. He's been having conversations with the split personalities (that were finally fully revealed this episode) since the first few episodes of this season, at least.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:26
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Shitenshi posted:even if you buy the show's hamfisted idea that he somehow committed an unforgivable sin by mind wiping Syd who was ready to shoot him dead based on Hannibal Lector bullshit. To wit, if he was that dangerous as the show says, he would have killed every single one of Division 3 and his so-called friends after being freed, but he took Lenny and bolted. He erased her memory so he could rewind her personality back to a time when she still loved him, and then had sex with her. It is not "hamfisted" to imply that this is in fact really fuckin' bad.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:30
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problems with the ending aside, i'm really excited about the new status quo w/more traditional Legion on the run. i hope next season can rein it in some and be more focused, but I think Hawley has to make a new Fargo first?
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Jun 14, 2018 03:30
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:He's been having conversations with the split personalities (that were finally fully revealed this episode) since the first few episodes of this season, at least. Yeah I think it was important that the choke was active while he was having a little chit chat with himself inside his head fantasy land too. I was kind of wondering WHAT would happen when the choke popped. Like would it pop and a bunch of people cease to exist? But turns out everything was real and Mr. David is also Mr. CrayCray.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:30
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And David's mental state is very very questionable. He randomly creates cows. And those androids are mental powers lightning rods...they attract unconscious mental powers and direct mental attacks. Like a Faraday cage around Fukuyama. The captured "energy" manifesting as random physical changes such as mustaches on androids. Female androids that happen to have some tie to David's sister, as a way of redirecting the power. I mean he's saving the world. That's just what he does. I mean sometimes you gotta do some questionable stuff to save that world. Yeah, the whole hell paved intentions something something, but man, its all fine. Or the order in which David and future Syd talked was not in chronological "order" and it become some self-inserted self-fulfilling prophecy. Or the dude's just been holding his meds for the last month and is on a hell of a mental bender at the moment.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:36
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:This is the exact opposite of what was determined in the storyline. An angel and devil on his shoulder who serve as fodder for his introspection. Farouk they are not. And if he is crazy, then poo poo, put the man on some meds and call it a day. For a nutjob, he's pretty high-functioning. Tuxedo Catfish posted:He erased her memory so he could rewind her personality back to a time when she still loved him, and then had sex with her. It is not "hamfisted" to imply that this is in fact really fuckin' bad. He mind wiped her because she had just taken a shot at him based on Farouk's manipulation and would have loving killed him. Come to think of it, shouldn't the video have included the footage of her turning on him? Why wasn't anyone asking why she had taken a hostile turn against him? Why didn't anyone ask where she had been before that even?
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Jun 14, 2018 03:37
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ekeog posted:problems with the ending aside, i'm really excited about the new status quo w/more traditional Legion on the run. i hope next season can rein it in some and be more focused, but I think Hawley has to make a new Fargo first? I think Fargo is on indefinite hiatus, unless that changed recently.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:37
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Unless provoked, in which case he could literally end the world. In that timeline, he got killed by Kerry without too much of an issue.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:38
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Think about it from Division 3's point of view: I don't disagree with any of that. I loved it and am so looking forward so S3
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Jun 14, 2018 03:39
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Shitenshi posted:Farouk they are not. And if he is crazy, then poo poo, put the man on some meds and call it a day. Did you miss the part where they specifically offered to get him treatment and medication and he decided he'd rather blow a gasket? I'm wondering if you even watch this show or just troll the thread with bad ideas.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:40
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Shitenshi posted:An angel and devil on his shoulder who serve as fodder for his introspection. Farouk they are not. And if he is crazy, then poo poo, put the man on some meds and call it a day. For a nutjob, he's pretty high-functioning. I think by this point the show has been quite clear that "it's just a metaphor" is completely wrong. They are not the angel and devil on his shoulder. They are delusions, symptoms of his insanity, one of whom is urging him to abandon humanity and do whatever he wants, and the other of whom is pushing him to wallow in self-loathing. Shitenshi posted:He mind wiped her because she had just taken a shot at him based on Farouk's manipulation and would have loving killed him. Come to think of it, shouldn't the video have included the footage of her turning on him? Why wasn't anyone asking why she had taken a hostile turn against him? Why didn't anyone ask where she had been before that even? If he could mind-wipe her, then his powers were functioning, which means she's about as much of a physical threat to him as an ant. You're also conveniently ignoring the "and then he had sex with her" part, and his motivations for wiping her mind Mind you, it would still have been sketchy to erase someone's memories even if it were just to combat a psychic attack (which David has undone once already without erasing anyone's memory) and even more sketchy to do it just to combat mundane misinformation, but, again, David didn't stop there. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 03:41
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The show was renewed for a third season pretty late. If it hadn't been renewed and season 2 was the end, does this episode end differently? Trying to think of how they might have changed it.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:43
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Codependent Poster posted:In that timeline, he got killed by Kerry without too much of an issue. True, but we have no idea what kind of setup that required and it was a version of David who was barely aware of his surroundings. e: My speculative theory would be that that's a David whose personalities are deadlocked. Now imagine one where Yellow Shirt David (Dav-Id?  ) wins and takes full control.
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 03:49
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think by this point the show has been quite clear that "it's just a metaphor" is completely wrong. They are not the angel and devil on his shoulder. They are delusions, symptoms of his insanity, one of whom is urging him to abandon humanity and do whatever he wants, and the other of whom is pushing him to wallow in self-loathing. Compared to everyone else in this show and their issues, that's relatively normal. Tuxedo Catfish posted:If he could mind-wipe her, then his powers were functioning, which means she's about as much of a physical threat to him as an ant. You're also conveniently ignoring the "and then he had sex with her" part, and his motivations for wiping her mind I'm not sure about the physics of mutant powers and how it relates to mundane situations, but she still could have offed him. Kerry got him good in one timeline. If you're right about him being that strong, well he didn't exactly make any movements to subdue her or stop the bullet, the show made it clear that Lenny saved him at the last minute. And then there's the motivation part. I'm pretty sure it was just bringing her back to normal, and the rape storyline literally seemed like an afterthought the show cooked up. I don't know about the hierarchy of mind magic either, but I'm willing to bet Farouk's psychic powers are a whole other level than that delusion monster. It's not like David was able to yank Oliver free of Farouk's hold just like that. That's probably why Farouk was able to bring her memories back no problem. Doorknob Slobber posted:Did you miss the part where they specifically offered to get him treatment and medication and he decided he'd rather blow a gasket? I'm wondering if you even watch this show or just troll the thread with bad ideas. Under pain of death while letting Farouk run free. I don't know about you, but that seems fishy.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:54
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Shitenshi posted:He mind wiped her because she had just taken a shot at him based on Farouk's manipulation and would have loving killed him. Come to think of it, shouldn't the video have included the footage of her turning on him? Why wasn't anyone asking why she had taken a hostile turn against him? Why didn't anyone ask where she had been before that even? "So what if I beat her? Did you know she lied to me before?" "Why aren't you asking about where she goes at night and won't talk about?" "Why aren't you talking about all the poo poo she did?" You should seek therapy, friend.
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Jun 14, 2018 03:58
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Shitenshi posted:Under pain of death while letting Farouk run free. I don't know about you, but that seems fishy. Yep. I'll stick by this was all planned. Not by Kerrys/Syd, but Fuku and SK would absolutely know what they were doing to him would make him go nuts.
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Jun 14, 2018 04:01
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Gobbeldygook posted:Here are some things wife beaters say: No, when watching that video chronologically, the first alarm bell that should be going off in your head is that she was holding him at gunpoint for no reason and took a shot just when he beat Farouk to a bloody pulp, not that David mind wiped her after all that. I'd say in a universe where SK's mind control powers are acknowledged and feared after seeing something like that, there's no reason Division 3 should be having doubts about him.
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Jun 14, 2018 04:04
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Shitenshi posted:I'm not sure about the physics of mutant powers and how it relates to mundane situations, but she still could have offed him. Kerry got him good in one timeline. If you're right about him being that strong, well he didn't exactly make any movements to subdue her or stop the bullet, the show made it clear that Lenny saved him at the last minute. And then there's the motivation part. I'm pretty sure it was just bringing her back to normal, and the rape storyline literally seemed like an afterthought the show cooked up. Where on Earth are you getting the bolded part?  The show is pretty clear. Syd goes to shoot him, Lenny notices and shoots, the bullets collide, it creates a shockwave and sends both Syd and David flying. They're both unconscious, David wakes up first, and after a brief conference with his split personalities -- who are egging him on to do this -- he crawls over to Syd and holds his hand to her head. There's no way she could have hurt him at that point. She's unconscious, and he has his powers back. He has all the time in the world to talk it through with her once they're home, to figure out with everyone's help how to put things right if she's under SK's control. And that's if this even is an implanted delusion and not just regular old lying and cherry-picked truths, which seems much more likely. (Even the mouse doesn't have to be psychic manipulation -- because for the Shadow King just telling her / reminding her of the truth in that moment would ruin David's life and be better revenge against him than anything else. It's perfect, and SK loves that poo poo. It also happens while he still has his crown on and his overt psychic powers are pretty limited.) Fully half the episode is David dealing with the fallout of his decision -- Shadow King taunting him, Kerry discovering his betrayal, Syd's hurt, and then the trial. It's not an afterthought, it's the point the whole season's been foreshadowing. (If you want to rewatch this stuff to catch the details, it starts right around 20 minutes in, although there's a minute or two of Lenny stuff mixed in there.) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 04:07
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Where on Earth are you getting the bolded part? I would say that mind wiping someone who disappeared right under your nose and then comes back ready to kill you when you have a villain on his knees who is known for mind control is justified, yes. That literally seems like the only way to do it, talking them out of it doesn't seem like an option or else things would be a lot simpler. Farouk avatars are dangerous and letting them on their own when they can do all kinds of damage is bad for everyone involved. Even if she was just having an earnest psychotic breakdown, it's still no different than giving someone their meds. You wouldn't let a loved one run around crazy, would you? That's what they threatened David with, to the point they're willing to kill him if he doesn't comply. Nor do I think that had everything worked swimmingly without the mind wipe and Farouk was executed, that it would be a good idea to leave her to Division 3's devices now that their contract is up or even just letting her be if she decided to part ways with him and stake it out on her own.
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Jun 14, 2018 04:21
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Here's a thought, even if erasing someone's memory is equivalent to medicating them for their own good (which it isn't, and the show straight-up has Syd look at the camera and tell you it isn't) maybe don't sleep with someone you just forcefully and secretly administered anti-psychotics to.
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Jun 14, 2018 04:25
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Here's a thought, even if erasing someone's memory is equivalent to medicating them for their own good (which it isn't, and the show straight-up has Syd look at the camera and tell you it isn't) maybe don't sleep with someone you just forcefully and secretly administered anti-psychotics to. Yes, Syd was angry at David after being returned to a state of either being under some level of Farouk's power or just back in a state of mind where she had been kidnapped and hated her boyfriend because of some Stockholm's syndrome nonsense, while not minding the person who set her on that path to begin with running free. I don't know if it was Hawley's intent, but the scene comes off as very ambiguous. Furthermore, a good deal of time had passed after the whole ordeal in the desert. It wasn't like he immediately mind wiped her and was willing to have his way with her right then and there. I think she had gotten her bearings back and they were just talking like old times once he visits her with his mental projection.
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Jun 14, 2018 04:36
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Shitenshi posted:Yes, Syd was angry at David after being returned to a state of either being under some level of Farouk's power or just back in a state of mind where she had been kidnapped and hated her boyfriend because of some Stockholm's syndrome nonsense, while not minding the person who set her on that path to begin with running free. I don't know if it was Hawley's intent, but the scene comes off as very ambiguous. Syd was angry at David for doing a bunch of things that he really did do, and that he didn't want her to remember -- and didn't let her. He denied her agency even more forcefully that Farouk did when he was disguised as Melanie. Shitenshi posted:Furthermore, a good deal of time had passed after the whole ordeal in the desert. It wasn't like he immediately mind wiped her and was willing to have his way with her right then and there. I think she had gotten her bearings back and they were just talking like old times once he visits her with his mental projection. Come on dude. Of course they were "talking like old times" because she still doesn't remember what happened. It doesn't matter how much later it is, she's still under the effects.
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Jun 14, 2018 04:42
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Shitenshi posted:I think she had gotten her bearings back and they were just talking like old times once he visits her with his mental projection. Ya know how we know she hadn't?
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Jun 14, 2018 04:43
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the last episode literally had david looking at syd and saying and wanting to believe he was a good person, and then denying that that is not the case when syd points out that he raped her. its like every 'good guy' ever who thinks he deserves something that it someone elses to give and then denying that its him that is the problem despite being given the opportunity to acknowledge this. its funny how people are stretching to justify his actions. that said having the shadowking there when they are confronting him was the dumbest thing and undermined the impact of that scene. i didn't think shadowking was manipulating syd at the end there tho. i liked davids sister and hope she sticks around in lenny's head, she could be the only one who can reach david after this.
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Jun 14, 2018 04:44
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The end of the credits had Vermillion literally say "This is not real". It's part of their simulation. Why else show the inside of the machine that bleeds?
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Jun 14, 2018 04:50
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Syd was angry at David for doing a bunch of things that he really did do, and that he didn't want her to remember -- and didn't let her. He denied her agency even more forcefully that Farouk did when he was disguised as Melanie. Did Syd even state why she was angry at David when holding him at gunpoint or was it all a bunch of hokey nonsense about him being the real villain? Then again, both would sound like crazy talk considering Farouk's selected version of events was bullshit and she said that from the get go, but for some reason went along with Melanie's speech anyway. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Come on dude. Of course they were "talking like old times" because she still doesn't remember what happened. It doesn't matter how much later it is, she's still under the effects. Under the effects of a cure. I guess at the heart of it is that even if David was unambiguously presented as a rapist son of a bitch, you don't casually stroll with Farouk afterwards. That kind of frustrating writing makes everyone complicit look bad especially if they're of sound mind and you empathize with the villain out of sheer frustration at the absurdity of the thing.
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Jun 14, 2018 05:11
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It was rape. can we PLEASE just agree with this and not argue for a loving year over this
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Jun 14, 2018 05:14
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i want to know what happens with amy, she's still in lennys head. she's keen that lenny help david but the whole 'are you a good person' thing makes me think that she might be the one whos either able to get through to david that he needs help or be the one to put david down if it comes to that. i'm glad they didn't just ditch the actress, i know lenny is by far the more popular but i really found amy to be an interesting and nuanced character and i sympathised alot with her. the fact that the shadowking didn't die in the desert means that the timeline has already changed so i'm interested to see how they deal with that.
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Jun 14, 2018 05:19
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Atomic Soda posted:i want to know what happens with amy, she's still in lennys head. she's keen that lenny help david but the whole 'are you a good person' thing makes me think that she might be the one whos either able to get through to david that he needs help or be the one to put david down if it comes to that. I noticed her eyes were green when she was snipering, instead of Amy's bright blue eyes. No idea if that means anything.
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Jun 14, 2018 05:21
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i also noticed that the amy in lennys head has brown eyes now, which is neat.
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Jun 14, 2018 05:23
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Atomic Soda posted:i also noticed that the amy in lennys head has brown eyes now, which is neat. Noah is just completely loving with our heads and I love it.
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Jun 14, 2018 05:31
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:There's no way she could have hurt him at that point. She's unconscious, and he has his powers back. He has all the time in the world to talk it through with her once they're home, to figure out with everyone's help how to put things right if she's under SK's control. And that's if this even is an implanted delusion and not just regular old lying and cherry-picked truths, which seems much more likely. This is a somewhat poor argument given that the reverse applies during the confrontation at the end, and in far less stressful conditions. Expecting an emotionally unstable person to revert to calm rational behavior after getting into a near-loss psychic super-fight, nearly getting murdered by a woman that he loves and thinks loves him, and then suffering a concussion is a bit much. David assuming that her mind was corrupted by the SK and quickly-but-messily mashing ctrl-z so he could go back to bashing the SK's skull in (I don't recall if D3 was there yet but I thought not) is a fairly reasonable set of actions, and the end of the episode states as much: much as David can't see how others perceive him, Syd didn't seem to realize how others would perceive her actions at that moment - David is stammering a bit but he was portrayed as genuinely confused at some of the accusations in the desert. Having Kerry frame David's action as "treachery" is also unearned unless his magic welding mask was also psychic - from his perspective Syd should have come across as possessed.
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Jun 14, 2018 05:31
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Koirhor posted:I have zero interest in Season 3 which is amazing considering how much I had been looking forward to Season 2. I mean that takes some god drat effort.
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Jun 14, 2018 05:33
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I am not a fan of "The hero is really a villain! aaah! stories", but i'm okay with how it was done here. David being deluded that he is doing the right thing works with what we've seen. It was a weird visual of Syd having psi sex with David and then switching over to Kerry jumping rope with almost exactly the same motions. I'm not sure about the choices there.
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Jun 14, 2018 05:57
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