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KingFisher posted:How do you feel about smite/ crit fishing with great weapons? I'm not sure I'd want to go fishing for crits over something more reliable. Also how are crown paladins?
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Jun 14, 2018 14:26
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Pls let me know if I have the mechanics of this right:
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Jun 14, 2018 14:30
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Druids are a full caster, which means they're worlds ahead of the martial classes, as all full casters are. Their shapeshifting means they're extremely difficult to kill (or even just threaten with death), compared to other casters that are "squishier" If you want to do a straight comparison to a Bard, then the Druids aren't as skilled and the Bard gets to cherry-pick some really good spells, which means the Bard is probably still going to be more "broken", but at that point you're comparing a Porsche versus a Maserati when half the party is driving mopeds.
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Jun 14, 2018 14:32
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Also depending on how your dm rules on the spell, conjure animals can make them one of the few classes that can actually tank. (Sage advice ruled differently than I did - picking the animals is a huge part of the fun of the spell, I allowed that and cut the numbers in half.)
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Jun 14, 2018 15:23
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Also depending on how your dm rules on the spell, conjure animals can make them one of the few classes that can actually tank. (Sage advice ruled differently than I did - picking the animals is a huge part of the fun of the spell, I allowed that and cut the numbers in half.) Yeah I ignore that as well unless people are trying to do pixie polymorph shenanigans or something dumb. The druid PC in the game I run always picks thematically appropriate animals and that’s cool (although her turns drag on sometimes but that’s another issue.)
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Jun 14, 2018 15:27
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The Sage Advise for the Conjure spells is insanely dumb and everyone should ignore it anyway. Even if someone wants to do Pixies into Flying Invisible T-Rexes or whatever, that's at least more fun and everyone should get to do it once anyway.
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Jun 14, 2018 15:29
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My player has spared me woodland beings for now - I think my ruling there was one creature regardless of CR. My druid makes no attempt to choose creatures based on location and instead does so based on his personal style. Conjuring giant octopi is good signature move, to the point where one of them told him he was interrupting important work every time he did it - he's gonna meet that octopus out in the world soon.
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Jun 14, 2018 15:56
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I've always felt that's an underutilised aspect of summons. Presumably most summons have poo poo to do that you're getting in the way of. Or is it a volunteer thing where pixies can sign up to summon duty in return for part of the magical every you expended.
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Jun 14, 2018 16:50
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Toshimo posted:Pls let me know if I have the mechanics of this right: From my understanding, yes to all. Critical hits very explicitly doubles Sneak Attack. Surprise attack is basically the same wording, so yes to that. Assassinate specifically says "attack rolls", so yes to advantage on the offhand, plus any extra attacks you may get through multiclassing. There is SOME wiggle room on if a creature is still "surprised" after the first hit, and thus gets the autocrit on the offhand, but I feel like you should be able to successfully argue that a bugbear dropping 10d6+dex is pretty freaking surprising. In any case, if the DM is letting your dual wield bugbear rogue get a surprise attack off, he should be pretty okay with you just deleting whatever you're attacking and the 12th d6 after the first 11 of them roll isn't really the problem.
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Jun 14, 2018 16:52
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Jarvisi posted:Also how are crown paladins? I haven't played one, but giving a good look at the features, I feel like they mostly give up some of the things that make Paladins strong in exchange for having some cleric-lite features. Clerics can already be strong tanks, so I think the niche that calls for a Crown Paladin is pretty narrow -- when you don't have a cleric, you need a tank, and you need tons of frontloaded damage and/or a party face. Also the first Channel Divinity option is going to range from being awesome to useless depending on how many melee people your group uses and how big the environments to fight in are.
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Jun 14, 2018 17:21
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Toshimo posted:Pls let me know if I have the mechanics of this right: Yes to all except surprise rounds don't exist. Whether a creature is 'surprised' (which works as a condition despite not being listed under conditions) during the first round of combat is entirely up to the DM.
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Jun 14, 2018 17:46
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Splicer posted:I've always felt that's an underutilised aspect of summons. Presumably most summons have poo poo to do that you're getting in the way of. Or is it a volunteer thing where pixies can sign up to summon duty in return for part of the magical every you expended. Yeah this is exactly where I took it - the druid didn't much care for his concerns and he looked glum and said "I signed the contract..." I was thinking a fey spirit gives beasts a taste of intelligence and then takes it away if they won't agree to do service.
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Jun 14, 2018 17:47
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Man, for Lillard's sake I hope his new company is just a passion project and those Scooby Doo residuals are still paying the bills. I can't imagine his new venture is gonna be much of a money maker.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:42
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Conspiratiorist posted:Yes to all except surprise rounds don't exist. Whether a creature is 'surprised' (which works as a condition despite not being listed under conditions) during the first round of combat is entirely up to the DM. Yes, I guess I should have specified "against a surprised target". Relentless posted:There is SOME wiggle room on if a creature is still "surprised" after the first hit, and thus gets the autocrit on the offhand, but I feel like you should be able to successfully argue that a bugbear dropping 10d6+dex is pretty freaking surprising. I was working off this UA: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-november-2015 quote:If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:48
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Relentless posted:In any case, if the DM is letting your dual wield bugbear rogue get a surprise attack off, he should be pretty okay with you just deleting whatever you're attacking and the 12th d6 after the first 11 of them roll isn't really the problem. Yeah, Bugbears are racially proficient in Stealth and have +1 DEX, so a 16DEX + Prof + Expertise is +7 Stealth level 1, and with the PHB definition of "Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side.", and having a cleric give me a 10-round charge of Guidance for a d4 before I engage, I only need to roll a 4 on average to beat a lot of passive Perception checks.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:53
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Son of a Vondruke! posted:Man, for Lillard's sake I hope his new company is just a passion project and those Scooby Doo residuals are still paying the bills. I can't imagine his new venture is gonna be much of a money maker. In the AMA he made there were references to tiered levels for their products. I think it’s rather hurting them more than anything that they can’t show what comes in it since they chose to launch with a unreleased product. I know it’s harder to justify doing something like this for an old adventure like Tomb of Annihilation or Storm Kings as a lot of groups have already ran these adventures, but not having the ability to showcase the “luxury” of it is really calling into question it’s price point. The commercial does well to showcase most of what we assume will be included, but it’s not helping their price point if the vast majority of the cost are custom miniatures. They could have just as easily hand picked minis from the upcoming water deep mini blind box line that we will inevitably get and get in on the mass production costs instead of one offs.
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Jun 14, 2018 19:19
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Toshimo posted:Yeah, Bugbears are racially proficient in Stealth and have +1 DEX, so a 16DEX + Prof + Expertise is +7 Stealth level 1, and with the PHB definition of "Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side.", and having a cleric give me a 10-round charge of Guidance for a d4 before I engage, I only need to roll a 4 on average to beat a lot of passive Perception checks. So long as you are sneaking forward on your own to well assassinate your enemy that is probably fine. But if you are sneaking forward with a party then if the enemy notices even a single one of your party they are not surprised. There is a reason that Assassin isn't very good. At first glance it seems awesome, but unless you are sneaking ahead by yourself getting surprise is just not going to happen very often. Especially since you need something to Stealth behind. Darkness/dim light can work, if you aren't facing enemies with Darkvision. That said if you have someone in the party who can cast Pass Without Trace that makes the entire party considerably more Stealthy, and depending on the DM might count for the concealment you need to Stealth.
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Jun 14, 2018 19:38
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Yeah, I'm scouting forward well in advance of my party (basically at the edge of their visual range). I fully expect this to bite me in the rear end at some point. It also has the unintended side effect of marginalizing a lot of my party in the early game because anything I get the jump on is exploding pretty fast right now. I've been trying to be mindful to help the DM keep everyone involved instead of just doing everything I can see before my party catches up.
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Jun 14, 2018 19:56
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Assassin is a garbage archetype that needs DM fiat to function at all, and when it does work it encourages a playstyle inherently incompatible with the cooperative problem-solving game that is D&D.
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Jun 14, 2018 20:31
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Conspiratiorist posted:Assassin is a garbage archetype that needs DM fiat to function at all, and when it does work it encourages a playstyle inherently incompatible with the cooperative problem-solving game that is D&D.  I just wanted to stab dudes lots.
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Jun 14, 2018 20:32
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Toshimo posted:
Swashbuckler stabs dudes a lot.
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Jun 14, 2018 20:37
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Son of a Vondruke! posted:Man, for Lillard's sake I hope his new company is just a passion project and those Scooby Doo residuals are still paying the bills. I can't imagine his new venture is gonna be much of a money maker. I watched most of the Stream of Many Eyes, they'd already sold something to the tune of 150 copies during that few day span. It's likely shot up even higher from there.
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Jun 14, 2018 20:40
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Reik posted:Swashbuckler stabs dudes a lot. Swashbuckler for your Rogue stabbity needs, yes.
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Jun 14, 2018 20:51
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If you choose Assassin and your dm doesn't let you use assassinate once per battle then they're being lame, but it is a risk you run by picking assassin.
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Jun 14, 2018 20:59
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Uh if you are playing an Assassin and your DM lets you assassinate once per battle something is wrong. Because that is basically guaranteed not to work. Its not the DM being lame, it is them running the game as it is meant to be played, and possibly being lenient by letting you assassinate ever. Also reminder if you go and assassinate an enemy that is with a group you aren't going to be able to assassinate anyone else in that group, you can't just run away and hide. That would let you get sneak attack again, but not assassinate.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:04
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Ryuujin posted:Uh if you are playing an Assassin and your DM lets you assassinate once per battle something is wrong. Because that is basically guaranteed not to work. Its not the DM being lame, it is them running the game as it is meant to be played, and possibly being lenient by letting you assassinate ever.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:07
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Elysiume posted:All you need to be able to assassinate someone is for them to have not acted in combat yet. With high dex, as long as you don't have awful rolls, you should generally be out-initiative-ing at least one enemy that's hopefully in range to assassinate (and with the option to bonus action dash, "in range" is fairly large). Am I missing something for why that would be extremely scarce? The Auto-Crit is only if they're surprised. As the DM, at least every 2 or 3 battles there should be a big enemy your assassin gets to surprise and flat out murder. Other fights vs solo things don't let them get surprised, or vs hordes of little things does it really matter if he drops 40 damage on a kobold slinger? It's not like it splashes and he stabs that kobold so hard that 4 others see it and die of shock. Outside of the 1st round, the Assassin isn't as good at combat at a Swashbuckler/Arcane Trickster/Inquisitive, but not any worse than a Mastermind/Scout/Thief. Most of their combat stuff is baked into Rogue.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:16
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Oh, the crit part specifically, yeah. I should've realized that's what they meant.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:17
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With high Dex (and the Alert feat, if you take it), you can consistently trigger the advantage from going first from Assassinate. However, in order to trigger the autocrit on a hit portion, you need to also surprise the enemy. This presents issues. Your options are: 1) You sneak off well ahead of the party and initiate combats so they don’t fail their stealth rolls. Now you have potentially split the party, or you’re at least taking a whole lot of focus just to get to use your ability. As Conspirationist implied, this encourages a playstyle which isn’t great for a game of cooperative problem-solving. It’s also going to get tedious. 2) You don’t sneak off too far ahead. Now you likely don’t get that autocrit very often, because the DM doesn’t want to be giving the entire party Surprise on their encounters, and the cleric or paladin in their plate keep botching their stealth rolls. 3) The DM drills down and handles Surprise on a creature-by-creature basis, such that the enemies might be surprised by the assassin but not the cleric. Now the overhead on determining surprise has gone up significantly, and will become relevant every encounter because the assassin will always be trying to get surprise. It’s a really poorly designed class feature, RAW. There lots of directions you could go with homebrewing an alternative; a simple one would be to just have an Assassin roll a Stealth vs. Perception check to see whether they get the autocrit on hit portion of Assassinate (regardless of initiative order).
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Jun 14, 2018 21:27
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Relentless posted:Other fights vs solo things don't let them get surprised, or vs hordes of little things does it really matter if he drops 40 damage on a kobold slinger? It's not like it splashes and he stabs that kobold so hard that 4 others see it and die of shock. Toshimo posted:
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Jun 14, 2018 21:35
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FWIW, there's the whole bit where you can assassinate as ranged attack, so chucking a couple of daggers from range drops your base damage roll from 1d6 to 1d4, but there should be more leniency in getting surprise from range. I mean, I could even take a shortbow and assassinate from 80 yards out, which should give a lot more options in not leaving the party behind. We'll see how it plays out.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:36
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Just be the character you want. Have fun.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:39
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Also, I appreciate the suggestions to switch archetype, but I really wanted to play a non-caster since my other duder right now is a Wizard, and it seemed like there would be good times to be had playing up a Bubgear in AL. Unfortunately, that means Volo's as my +1, so my only archetypes are Assassin/Thief/Arcane Trickster. Not wanting to be a caster, it got narrowed to Assassain or Thief, so I'm gonna make the best of it.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:42
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Novum posted:Just be the character you want. Have fun. This is another issue with Assassin, where its name is evocative of a certain kind of gameplay that its game mechanics don't actually support. You be any other kind of martial and call yourself an 'assassin' just as well. Toshimo posted:Also, I appreciate the suggestions to switch archetype, but I really wanted to play a non-caster since my other duder right now is a Wizard, and it seemed like there would be good times to be had playing up a Bubgear in AL. Unfortunately, that means Volo's as my +1, so my only archetypes are Assassin/Thief/Arcane Trickster. Not wanting to be a caster, it got narrowed to Assassain or Thief, so I'm gonna make the best of it. Note that even while not pulling shenanigans such as Bonus Action Healing Kits, Thief archetype features actually work, which is an automatic step up over Assassin.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:51
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Dnd is: Making a class that benefits from one approach of play that the rest of the party doesnt.
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Jun 14, 2018 22:43
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Novum posted:Just be the character you want. Have fun.
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Jun 14, 2018 22:49
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In that case play shadow monk
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Jun 14, 2018 22:50
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By not playing a caster I assumed Toshimo meant they don't want to deal with resource management. If resource management is on the table, Arcane Trickster with "No it's not magic I'm just a really good thief" written over all the spells.
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Jun 14, 2018 23:00
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escalator dropdown posted:
This is a really foreign way of looking at things. Essentially he's acting as a scout with high damage, and scouting is the best way to have the party coordinate in setting up attacks. The current campaign I'm in we tried going without one for the first time ever and every fight is a giant mess because of it. I'd say an assassin or anyone else going on ahead is helping cooperative problem solving vastly more than taking away from it Also, as to taking up extra time gently caress that. Especially compared to people looking up spell descriptions
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Jun 14, 2018 23:03
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10th level bard. Find Greater Steed and Destructive Wave or Find Greater Steed and Wall of Force? I have a magic ring that lets me alter one letter of a spell to change its effects (with power limited by the level of the original spell) if that changes things. We already got Counterspell and Haste covered.
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