|
Dolash posted:The only tradition that would make sense would be being a disciple of the meta-system of belief and paradigm directly and basing your teachings around exploiting the only actual fundamental laws of the universe, anything else is pure aesthetics. Forget throwing fireballs or phone teleporting or whatever pyramid energy is, just warp reality directly and without limitation based on the collective understanding that it is fundamentally perception-malleable, and do it with the minimum number of co-conspirators whatever law of consensus requires to be valid. Yeah, that is called the Purple Paradigm under the game's hood. It is supported mechanically by the fact that once you get a high enough Arete (the Mage's power stat) you can do magic without a focus, representing the character's understanding of the universe's nature.
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 10:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 07:04 |
|
|
Eox posted:All of the pomp and circumstance in Mage is to keep consensus reality off your back by making it think whatever you're doing could maybe work. Part of the deal is probably that the characters don't get to read the source books. They don't get to see the benefits and limitations of each type and then decide what kind of mage they want to be. Either they are born into a mage lineage and are taught those traditions, or they are a normal mundane person living their life until *something happens* and now they are clued in to specific supernatural elements. They get locked into one explanation paradigm and never look at the big picture and figure out it's all bullshit. It works. IRL there are people who believe in really hard in various superstitions, magic, voodoo, homeopathy, prayer, palm reading, myomancy, zodiac, crystals, etc. AFAIK none of those things work at all. No evidence of any of them working reliably, yet the true believers have unshakable faith that it works and that they've seen it work. Imagine how much stronger their faith would be if it actually worked more often than probability and coincidence can explain!
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 10:32
|
|
|
Dolash posted:It'd be like being a monotheist in a world where your god hangs out with the other gods and frequently shows up with them to get into fights on your lawn. The other "gods" are false idols. Their worshippers are evil fraudsters who rely on carnival tricks in lieu of genuine divine aid. They want to kill you and defile everything you've ever cared about. The fights on the lawn take place between the worshippers rather than gods, but they are both frequent and deadly. Sometimes, the dead bodies left on the ground belong to your friends and compatriots; other times, to regular people you have sworn (and failed) to protect. The charlatans have numbers, cunning and absolute lack of moral scruples on their side. You have literal superpowers... but those are only as strong as your conviction. If you let your faith waver, people will die and the bad guys will win. There is no place for polytheists on the front lines of the Ascension War.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 13:36
|
|
|
You don't actually get to pick your own paradigm, and you can't do anything outside of it if you haven't Awakened.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 13:53
|
|
|
Ephemeron posted:There is no place for polytheists on the front lines of the Ascension War. Unless you're playing Nazca and the heretical hillmen provide a decent buffer between your profitable provinces and your temples that are constantly spewing out your cancerous dominion which makes people lazy, angry, dull, unlucky, and dead as a side-effect of making your magical condors, condor-people, and ghost-condor-people really really really really strong and fast and not quite as prone to dying to lighting strikes and fire mages with a short temper as everyone else is. Your mummified nobility still needs to be paid, their fees are based on age, and it's not like they're shrinking in either number or age, being already dead and all 
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 14:01
|
|
|
Man, I sure hope the consensus is that Rich is ok!
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 15:12
|
|
|
Dolash posted:If the world of Mage works on this system of consensus and paradigm then why does anyone waste time subscribing to any one tradition or belief system since they're all arbitrary? In fact how is anyone maintaining enough belief in any tradition to keep their powers running in an environment where they're demonstrably, provably wrong? It'd be like being a monotheist in a world where your god hangs out with the other gods and frequently shows up with them to get into fights on your lawn. I think some of it is the fact that this is meta-game knowledge, a sort of "hidden lore" thing that most player characters wouldn't be fully aware of. They know about consensus reality and paradox, but they don't know that any given tradition is in fact totally arbitrary and that everything is down to consensus. The common understanding of consensus reality is more that normal people seeing magic will weaken its potency due to their skepticism, and the Technocracy want to stamp out all other magical traditions by spreading that skepticism. To some extent the PCs and the factions around them are meant to genuinely think that they're tapping into a fundamental magic when they align their pyramids or invoke Hermes or whatever, rather than just altering reality through their belief in a fiction. They believe in an originary golden age of real magic to which they are the heirs, that the bad guys are attempting to ruin using the interaction between magic and belief. The problem with this is that the players have more knowledge than their characters, which makes roleplaying your character's genuine belief in Hermetic tradition a bit hokey at times.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 15:29
|
|
|
Dolash posted:If the world of Mage works on this system of consensus and paradigm then why does anyone waste time subscribing to any one tradition or belief system since they're all arbitrary? In fact how is anyone maintaining enough belief in any tradition to keep their powers running in an environment where they're demonstrably, provably wrong? It'd be like being a monotheist in a world where your god hangs out with the other gods and frequently shows up with them to get into fights on your lawn. As was already said, this is a fairly common reaction by people who are new to the system, but it ignores that the characters don't get to read the books. The "under the hood" explanation for how magic functions in this universe is that you're altering reality in accordance with your will. Your will works in accordance with your belief. Your belief is the result of your particular magical tradition, which is a function of your studies, your values, your culture, your upbringing, and the circumstances by which you had the final breakthrough that turned you into a mage. Therefore, there's nothing arbitrary about any of it for your character, because it's your belief system. The way in which your character practices magic is a method by which he or she sees the world, and is how you add texture and flavor to your actions within the larger universe. Now, eventually, your character can get to a point where you can still practice magic without whatever ritual tools you've been using, but you get a difficulty reduction if you use them anyway because that's your comfort zone. Further, this is a system where everyone's beliefs are provably right. A mage of the Celestial Chorus who knows exactly the same Spheres as a member of the Order of Hermes can affect the same changes in the universe, albeit via dramatically different methods. You can hem and haw a bit about how much of the Chorister's magic is actually divinely inspired, or how much of it comes from him/her vs. the god(s) he/she chooses to worship, or whether or not it's "worth" lunatic monotheistic devotion when there are total atheists who can do precisely the same things (although it'd be kind of stupid to be an out-and-out atheist in the World of Darkness, since you can go visit heaven if you really want to), but as far as the character is concerned, that's where magic comes from. The fact that other people can do the same things in different traditions doesn't mean your tradition is meaningless, and belief isn't something you can simply turn off and on again like a switch. A big thing about Mage, however, is that there are a lot of the typical concerns of a role-playing game that simply do not apply to it. Your character should not be terribly motivated by wealth, for example, since you'd have to be working very hard to make a character who couldn't easily come by quite a lot of money with even entry-level Spheres. You aren't in danger from even most of the other supernatural creatures for the same reason, although they can still screw you up pretty badly if they win initiative. Mage is explicitly more of a storytelling game than the other WoD lines as a result, because characters can do pretty much whatever the hell they feel like and get away with it as long as the player isn't a total moron. Being a munchkin is counter-productive.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 17:35
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Man, I sure hope the consensus is that Rich is ok! It's been 4 days. It typically takes a week for one page, longer if a comic has multiple pages. "I hope Rich is OK" has become code for "I do not find the current topic of conversation interesting, but I don't have anything more interesting to say, so I'll bitch about it."
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 18:05
|
|
|
We're way off topic and this is clear the sort of in-depth discussion that can spiral in on itself indefinitely, but I will say that as a matter of setting design, describing in detail a central mechanic that justifies and explains how all these different magic systems can co-exist but then specifying that nobody knows about it or can leverage it directly, including the PCs, sounds like a terrible idea. Sometimes it's better to leave some story elements deliberately vague or unsettled if they're not the real focus.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 18:26
|
|
|
Mage chat can soak up pages upon pages in the World of Darkness thread, and that’s a thread that is largely already tired of Mage chat. The poor defenseless souls in this thread have no chance of resisting.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 18:42
|
|
|
Consensus Reality is that Mage chat is cool and interesting, clearly.  It's been fun to read it between new pages getting posted, but it sounds like maybe not so much if you're tired of it from the WoD thread? Certainly it's not a topic that's been hashed over a ton of times here like some other ones.Personally Mage was one of the lesser played oWoD games back when I was big into that. I did devour the splatbooks still since I was hot on learning all the WoD lore and the Technocracy always seemed to be way more interesting as protagonists than antagonists. Since the PC traditions all seemed super OP I read the Technocracy as the underdogs trying to keep reality safe from all these crazies running around throwing fireballs and blowing themselves and others up. To be fair MiB did come out while I was in highschool so that may have tied into that viewpoint.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 18:55
|
|
|
Dolash posted:We're way off topic and this is clear the sort of in-depth discussion that can spiral in on itself indefinitely, but I will say that as a matter of setting design, describing in detail a central mechanic that justifies and explains how all these different magic systems can co-exist but then specifying that nobody knows about it or can leverage it directly, including the PCs, sounds like a terrible idea. Sometimes it's better to leave some story elements deliberately vague or unsettled if they're not the real focus. WoD in general, especially old WoD, has a lot of things like that. Most of the first- and second-wave designers were enthusiastic novices and it shows. There's a lot I like in the system, such as the relative flexibility of the rules (there's nothing that drives me crazy faster than a system where I can't do a relatively simple thing in-game without, say, the right conglomeration of feats or a specific skill), but there are a lot of weak spots where player tendencies hit and react poorly with the designers' intention. Most of them have to do with combat, or where the various game lines meet and conflict. That having been said, Mage in particular owes a great deal to certain real-world occult concepts, where it's generally accepted as a definition that magic is the ability to manifest changes in reality in accordance with the user's will. That's the basic conceit of the setting, along with the idea that magic is, at its heart, supposed to be a tool for the gradual perfection of the self. What the game makes relatively clear, but what a lot of players seem to want to ignore, is that even if your character explicitly subscribes to the reality-alteration theory (and some don't; one of the signature characters believes the world is basically 100% abstract mathematics), magic requires belief in something. It's not just knowing that reality is malleable and being able to change it through sheer concentration; it's leveraging that belief system to allow yourself to break through conventional limits. You need something as a focus with which to evoke your will, the same way that real-world magical traditions have wands, books, candles, visualization, dancing, mantras, or the ten thousand names of God. You could theoretically roll a character who made their final breakthrough into being a mage after reading The Fountainhead or some poo poo and now they're an objectivist Randian superman whose entire belief system hinges upon the absolute supremacy of their will over the weak consensus, so all your "foci" are concentration, monologues, and pointing real dramatically, but I wouldn't want to play that with you. The Order of Hermes kind of butts up against that as things stand. Potsticker posted:Personally Mage was one of the lesser played oWoD games back when I was big into that. I ran it off and on for about eight years, during and after college. You really have to have the right group, but I think the primary barrier to running it is that you have to get over a lot of ingrained game-master reflexes to run it appropriately. Like I said before, for example, there is absolutely nothing keeping even an entry-level mage from being rich as all hell within a couple of sessions unless they actively hosed up their own character build, and a mage who gets the drop on anybody besides another mage is simply going to flat-out win the fight. Wanderer fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jun 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 19:08
|
|
|
Dolash posted:We're way off topic and this is clear the sort of in-depth discussion that can spiral in on itself indefinitely, but I will say that as a matter of setting design, describing in detail a central mechanic that justifies and explains how all these different magic systems can co-exist but then specifying that nobody knows about it or can leverage it directly, including the PCs, sounds like a terrible idea. Sometimes it's better to leave some story elements deliberately vague or unsettled if they're not the real focus. To be fair, the full and elaborate nature of conensus reality is from a lot of additional sourcebooks and suchlike. The main book doesn't lay out, "okay, here's how it works, but your characters don't know that and probably never will". It's being discussed here from the point of view where you have literally read all the secret mysteries stuff spread over several ancillary books and pieced it together.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 19:15
|
|
|
Wanderer posted:I ran it off and on for about eight years, during and after college. You really have to have the right group, but I think the primary barrier to running it is that you have to get over a lot of ingrained game-master reflexes to run it appropriately. Like I said before, for example, there is absolutely nothing keeping even an entry-level mage from being rich as all hell within a couple of sessions unless they actively hosed up their own character build, and a mage who gets the drop on anybody besides another mage is simply going to flat-out win the fight. I think for my group personally (which was from around the end of highschool and then through college) it was more that we just got into Werewolf and Vampire a lot more. Certainly we did a bit of everything, from bigger books like Changeling to even smaller stuff like Mummy or Hegeyokai. Wraith I think was the only big book that we did like-- maybe a session or two of. I guess Demon, because I've just remembered that book, we never did play, but that came at the end of oWoD's lifespan, iirc. Looking back, I feel like Mage was written different from the other books in that the antagonists were more unclear, other than the competing orders. In Werewolf there was evil everywhere to fight, Vampires had more powerful, older vampires that were effectively removed from the original player-available clans. Mage was the only one where I felt like there wasn't some big bad to sort of challenge an assorted group of mages from different orders in the same way as the other books you could have a cadre of tribes or clans all in the same player group.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 20:15
|
|
|
Potsticker posted:Looking back, I feel like Mage was written different from the other books in that the antagonists were more unclear, other than the competing orders. In Werewolf there was evil everywhere to fight, Vampires had more powerful, older vampires that were effectively removed from the original player-available clans. Mage was the only one where I felt like there wasn't some big bad to sort of challenge an assorted group of mages from different orders in the same way as the other books you could have a cadre of tribes or clans all in the same player group. Mage got a sea change about two-thirds of the way through second edition. The Technocracy was "supposed" to be the overwhelming default antagonist (you can go back and read first edition to see it written as a purely inhuman sort of Orwellian nightmare), but even relatively early on, it was difficult to see it as the true villain of the piece. Eventually it turned into the other side of a cold war over ideological real estate that would cooperate with the Traditions at the drop of a hat if there was a more compelling antagonist on the scene, typically the Nephandi. I do like that the typical Mage cabal was usually specifically engaged, in-game and in lore, in doing its own thing. You don't pursue power like vampires, because you've basically got it; you don't fight evil like werewolves, unless you want to. Most of my games tended to turn into pulp high adventure pretty easily. This is my writeup of what was probably the single most memorable night in the original campaign: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3460258&pagenumber=126&perpage=40#post428523037
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 20:38
|
|
|
Wanderer posted:This is my writeup of what was probably the single most memorable night in the original campaign: That's a pretty great story! Sounds like a super fun game.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 20:43
|
|
|
Stabbey_the_Clown posted:It's been 4 days. It typically takes a week for one page, longer if a comic has multiple pages. Man it feels weird to read the words "OOTS typically updates once a week".
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 23:57
|
|
|
Potsticker posted:I think for my group personally (which was from around the end of highschool and then through college) it was more that we just got into Werewolf and Vampire a lot more. Certainly we did a bit of everything, from bigger books like Changeling to even smaller stuff like Mummy or Hegeyokai. Wraith I think was the only big book that we did like-- maybe a session or two of. I guess Demon, because I've just remembered that book, we never did play, but that came at the end of oWoD's lifespan, iirc. Demon was pretty good. I ended up liking it more than the others, not even taking my messed up VtM LARP experience into account. If memory serves when White Wolf did the end of the world stuff for oWoD, I think Demon had the only reasonably happy ending. I haven't bothered with the other incarnations of WoD because they came across more like White Wolf trying to out-White Wolf itself if that makes sense. I do agree that each gameset did have a different vibe that the others that I don't know how any set mixing would've worked outside of having a big bad to go up against.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 00:03
|
|
|
I ran two mage games, the first one with the characters as a bunch of weirdos on my home town, the second with sharp suited reality cops tidying up the mess made by the first campaign. Mage works really well with rolemaster skills and combat, though the magic requires a bit of freewheeling interpretation.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 00:12
|
|
|
M_Sinistrari posted:I do agree that each gameset did have a different vibe that the others that I don't know how any set mixing would've worked outside of having a big bad to go up against. Just mixing within a set. Like you have a Brujah and a Gangrel and a Ventrue as a group in a Vampire game, for instance. Not like Vampire chilling with a Werewolf and a Changeling. I know some people were into that sort of thing, but the games really didn't support inter-set mixing too much. IIRC the books even gave some words on the topic? NihilCredo posted:Man it feels weird to read the words "OOTS typically updates once a week". Can you imagine there used to be a time when it updated multiple times a week!?
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 00:31
|
|
|
IIRC a lot of the time the rulebooks for each game were inconsistent on the relative power/numbers of the whatevers from the other games anyway, they were very definitely not intended to mix at all
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 00:38
|
|
|
Potsticker posted:Can you imagine there used to be a time when it updated multiple times a week!? If you estimate that it's been drawn and written for 15 years, it's still has an average of just under one-and-a-half updates a week.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 00:41
|
|
|
I picked up new Mage and the core book for NWoD back in highschool because it sounded neat and even back then I wasn't really enjoying D&D mechanics. But coming from D&D and d20 being my only experience with RPGs I couldn't really figure the thing out. I went into it thinking like a dungeon crawl and that was definitely not what the system was.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 00:43
|
|
|
Wanderer posted:You could theoretically roll a character who made their final breakthrough into being a mage after reading The Fountainhead or some poo poo and now they're an objectivist Randian superman whose entire belief system hinges upon the absolute supremacy of their will over the weak consensus, so all your "foci" are concentration, monologues, and pointing real dramatically, but I wouldn't want to play that with you. The Order of Hermes kind of butts up against that as things stand. What if the player was REALLY good at thematically appropriate to the situation assholeish speeches for each and every spell?
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 00:45
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:it's been drawn and written for 15 years 
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 00:45
|
|
|
Potsticker posted:Just mixing within a set. Like you have a Brujah and a Gangrel and a Ventrue as a group in a Vampire game, for instance. Not like Vampire chilling with a Werewolf and a Changeling. I know some people were into that sort of thing, but the games really didn't support inter-set mixing too much. IIRC the books even gave some words on the topic? I was thinking more how VtM had it's own flavor as opposed to WtA having it's own flavor...etc.. Each played well with itself but unless you tweaked things, the VtM ruleset didn't quite mesh with WtA or CtD. With the odd offshoots like Mummy, with those you generally needed at least the core rules for VtM to be playable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 00:48
|
|
|
M_Sinistrari posted:I was thinking more how VtM had it's own flavor as opposed to WtA having it's own flavor...etc.. Each played well with itself but unless you tweaked things, the VtM ruleset didn't quite mesh with WtA or CtD. With the odd offshoots like Mummy, with those you generally needed at least the core rules for VtM to be playable. I think I'm missing something here, because I'm not understanding too well. Especially the sentences "VtM had it's own flavor as opposed to WtA having it's own flavor?" and "you generally needed at least the core rules for VtM to be playable" How was Vampire the Masquerade different than the other systems in this? Maybe I'm just screwing up here, but especially that final sentence is like-- I read it as: "With books like Mummy you needed core rules in order to make Vampire the Masquerade playable" and that just sounds like nonsense.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 00:56
|
|
|
Potsticker posted:I think I'm missing something here, because I'm not understanding too well. Especially the sentences "VtM had it's own flavor as opposed to WtA having it's own flavor?" and "you generally needed at least the core rules for VtM to be playable" My bad for lapsing into the old gaming lingo, and I had the second edition books so I don't know what if anything changed with later editions/printings. Pretty much while each 'genre' worked well with the books within it like the Ventrue book with the Gangrel or using the Sabbat stuff all for Vampire, if you tried to mix it with one of the other genres like Werewolf or Mage, they either didn't mix well at all without some revising or at least needed some tweaks to not have it be a complete mess. From what I remember it was pretty easy to have a Mage steamroll over the other genre types because of how the spheres worked compared to the disciplines or whatever the werewolves used that I forgot. With Mummy, the book I had was thinner than a clanbook and only detailed their history and how their powers worked with it stated that you essentially replaced the Vampire terms with the ones for Mummy to have a working game.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 01:23
|
|
|
Okay, i think I get what you're saying now. Yeah, the rulesets between the games didn't always mesh well, leading to another reason why you wouldn't normally mix characters from different sets. Usually the books had stats for like-- Vampires fighting Werewolves where the werewolf powers would be described as Vampire disciplines. The Mummy book I only remember as the hardcover version, but things like Demon Hunter X and I think it was something like Gypsies were small, clanbook sized books.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 01:30
|
|
|
Potsticker posted:Okay, i think I get what you're saying now. Yeah, the rulesets between the games didn't always mesh well, leading to another reason why you wouldn't normally mix characters from different sets. Usually the books had stats for like-- Vampires fighting Werewolves where the werewolf powers would be described as Vampire disciplines. The Mummy book I only remember as the hardcover version, but things like Demon Hunter X and I think it was something like Gypsies were small, clanbook sized books. Hunter was another one which was stripped down to be able to work with the other games' rulesets. Best game mixing my group managed was my Slayer Reconciler demon who tagged along with the monster hunter guy who was ultimately gunning for the major big bads/players like the Antediluvians and the Tradition leaderships so he would put up a facade of co-operation when he had to so we bounced our characters through whatever game the others were more into at the time. Looking back on that, our characters might've been a proto-Supernatural concept.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 01:43
|
|
|
Demon Hunter X was fun. One of the longest-lived campaign I played in was a squad of cyber-augmented anti-monster agents that was derived from that splatbook. Though it was transposed to Britain and the overly anime stuff (like activating gizmos by shouting their names) was removed. Instead it was like one-third The Avengers, one third Men in Black and one third Deus Ex. With a sprinkling of James Bond and A-Team.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 01:57
|
|
|
There's no way it was that lo-quote:Launch date: September 29, 2003 
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 01:57
|
|
|
Ah! It actually updates just over one-and-a-half times a week.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 02:02
|
|
|
PMush Perfect posted:There's no way it was that lo- Roy died my senior year of high school I think? 2007 I caught up to the series originally when the latest strip was the hex grid joke. Man speaking of D&D comics whatever happened to Nodwick? Is that still going?
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 02:13
|
|
|
My 10yo daughter has started reading it obsessively, which gives me mixed feelings - on the one hand it's not exactly age appropriate, but on the other it's a drat good story and we have good conversations about what is good and bad and why people decided to do things (and why Miko is dumb). She also regularly refers to people as 'my psychotic friend' now and did suggest she would 'gut me with her hands' if I told her to tidy her room again, which I guess is ok? Idk, I'm possibly not a very good dad.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 02:17
|
|
|
Len posted:Roy died my senior year of high school I think? 2007 The site's still up with posts but I think the comic itself ended a while back.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 02:18
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:My 10yo daughter has started reading it obsessively, which gives me mixed feelings - on the one hand it's not exactly age appropriate, but on the other it's a drat good story and we have good conversations about what is good and bad and why people decided to do things (and why Miko is dumb). She could be reading Oglaf
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 02:19
|
|
|
Len posted:She could be reading Oglaf Oglaf is pretty funny.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 02:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 07:04 |
|
|
Len posted:Roy died my senior year of high school I think? 2007 Long concluded. Ended in 2013, I think. The author's got some new projects, including elementary school superheroes (PS238), a weird and oddly paced dimension travel thingy (Use Sword on Monster), and a gamer based gag-a-day strip (Full Frontal Nerdity). They're all available at www.nodwick.com, which is kinda ironic in that Nodwick itself is the only thing on the site that ISN'T updating. If you want to see how it ended, that's on the site too, of course.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 03:06
|
|
