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Dead Reckoning posted:What makes devils special isn't that they kill, it's that (aside from maybe Cio) they are apparently incapable of empathy. They aren't the worst villains in the universe, the majority of the Seven are human after all, but that's because devils and angels don't have the same heights of potential as humans and servants. It's the price they pay for immortality. In this setting, some humans are OK, and some are really, really bad, but every single devil is a predator. I'm not sure this is true, though. Devils aren't declared to be incapable of empathy. Devils are just defined by WANT, in a way humans are also entirely capable of (Humans can even take it further, because they're mortal, and thus can be driven by want to extremes few angels and devils can manage). Devils can empathize, though many don't, but all of them want to exist as individuals and ascend in power and individuality until they're Ebons. And, the omniverse being what it is, the easiest and most free way to pursue that blackened name is to be extremely evil. That's the Badstar way - acquire money and power through homicide. It makes sense that more devils are homicidally selfish than humans, as a percentage, but there's no hard and fast rule that every devil totally lacks fellow feeling. Many are probably pretty muddled in their desires. And I think that's a meaningful difference, because it means Cio is different not because she's magically not like other devils, but because she cares enough to restrain her WANT and make less awful friends. That's an actual character arc, even if it's incredibly rare, the same way White Chain being less fascist than many angels isn't because of a metaphysical thing about White Chain, but a personality thing.
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Jun 18, 2018 06:04
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Dead Reckoning posted:What makes devils special isn't that they kill, it's that (aside from maybe Cio) they are apparently incapable of empathy. quote:Each of them has separately come to the conclusion that when looked at the right way, any living being can easily be thought of as meat. is saying. They're not incapable of empathy, they're capable of willingly letting their desires overtake and cloud their empathy, in a way that humans with a working sense of empathy can also do. Most bigots or murderers or war criminals are not psychopaths without the ability to love anyone. It's very possible to genuinely and deeply love people and also decide that those people, you know, the other ones, the ones that are different, aren't actually people but abominations or vermin or, well, 'meat'. I'm not saying devils are just like humans in every way. But gently caress, man, none of the actions done by devils in this heist would be impossible for a human character to do, especially since we have noted human characters such as Mottom, who has adapted to see pretty much everyone as walking talking fuel. We still see counter-examples for devils not having empathy not just in Cio but in the late Nxor and Xand and heck, even in Catmaster and his cat.
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Jun 18, 2018 06:21
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If anything its the dogmatic Angels who'd probably think being incapable of empathy is a good thing because their all about purity of form and mind and getting some of that icky other and having it change you would be bad.
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Jun 18, 2018 08:34
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Basically I think it's fair to call devils predatory in the most literal sense. They're spiritual carnivores. This is going to impact their worldview. What's unfair is extrapolating from that fact to them feeling no empathy and to every devil being a predator in the interpersonal sense to every person they meet.
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Jun 18, 2018 16:57
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Joe Slowboat posted:I'm not sure this is true, though. They're pretty clearly capable of empathy, or of doing a convincing imitation of it even when it gains them nothing, which is better than most actual humans do; and they've got a whole brutal little devil society that just wouldn't even exist if they were all just chatty monsters who lived only for killing. They are, however, literally an artificial vaguely humanoid veneer of identity over an all-consuming flame, to even touch them means to be gradually devoured and excreted into more devils until all that is is nothing but devils, and that's a uh weird thing to look at and go "oh, they're just like pickpockets". Arguing about their moral character being equivalent to, like, a really jerky human is like arguing about the moral character of individual Bubonic plague bacilli you've given names to. Maybe they even have one! Carl still isn't going to stop eating you. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jun 18, 2018 |
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Jun 18, 2018 18:38
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Servants, humans, and devils are all created from the Flame Immortal and inflicted with great and terrible Want, I don't see devils as being uniquely bad here
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Jun 18, 2018 18:42
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yeah but it's different when I, a human, shake hands with someone by ovipositing them to live out their remaining days as an ambulatory nest and food source for my thousands of growing young
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Jun 18, 2018 18:52
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IIRC humans are actually considered worse than devils by angels because as a species we're never satisfied and we aren't restricted in the same ways devils are. I think it's inaccurate to say that no human can experience satisfaction, there's certainly people satisfied by the choice of a spartan lifestyle and there's people without a lot of burning ambition, but it's true that humans psychologically have an issue with scale, so if you try to satisfy yourself with excess and hedonism the physical brain reward for that evens out so you still need more and more to get the same hit. And, well, we see where that left Throne. Like isn't it canon in the setting that humans are considered the uniquely bad ones despite servants also participating in the great wars and angels getting all genocidal?
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Jun 18, 2018 18:55
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:yeah but it's different when I, a human, shake hands with someone by ovipositing them to live out their remaining days as an ambulatory nest and food source for my thousands of growing young Humans are the ones who came up with the system, not the victims of the devils exploitations. Kinda hosed up to look at the designed slave race and go 'yeah but they're like, mean about eating you.' EDIT: Devil engines literally run on devils as does a ton of technology in the setting. Allison ate a tiny devil and then puked it up.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:00
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Humans are uniquely fuckups, the other three were deliberately created to serve a purpose (as slave races)but humans are aimless and perpetually searching (and temporary) because they were made by Aesma just dicking around with the divine fire. Angels are uniquely static creatures of law; they are sterile, fixed in number, to break the law physically destroys them and once destroyed they reset back to (apparently?) pretty much where they began. Servants are uniquely, eh, those other guys Devils are uniquely Hungry, and will ruin everything. Think that's as far as the metaphysical stereotypes go. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jun 18, 2018 |
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Jun 18, 2018 19:00
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PetraCore posted:Allison ate a tiny devil and then puked it up. And then she ate it again
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Jun 18, 2018 19:05
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:yeah but it's different when I, a human, shake hands with someone by ovipositing them to live out their remaining days as an ambulatory nest and food source for my thousands of growing young Avshalom, is that you? Devils are people. They might be preturnaturally driven by the desire to consume more than any of the other life forms are, and their personal identities might get rather vague when not bound by their masks, but they are still fundamentally sentient and capable of making more of themselves than their base nature. Angels much the same, with the opposite basic nature.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:10
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Note that I'm not arguing that humans oppress poor helpless devils. Just that we've never seen evidence that relatively passive feeding significantly fucks over humans and there's a lot of benefits for the humans from that. It's mutualistic, not parasitic. Now, good ol' Yabalchoath going through 15 slaves a day and gorging on soul flames is no longer a mutually beneficial arrangement, but we've seen a direct comparison to that behavior in a human with Nadia, with the main difference being that Nadia feels bad about it when she lets herself (but still wouldn't ever stop without being forced into it). And yet, despite being a close echo of such a complete and utter monster, Cio very much has empathy and acts on it. It's not that Cio is some magical exception, it's that all devils inherently have the capacity for both.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:12
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I suspect angels focus a lot more on hating humans because genociding all humans is actually practically possible, and getting rid of all the devils isn't.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:28
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Anyway we've constantly got characters like 69 Pink Flamingo Extorts The Hapless Merchant kicking around so really I don't put too much stock in it when a character starts talking about how angels are perfect law robots or devils are sociopathic maurauders
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Jun 18, 2018 19:28
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Devils don't have empathy the same way angels don't have gender.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:30
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Dr Cheeto posted:Servants, humans, and devils are all created from the Flame Immortal and inflicted with great and terrible Want, I don't see devils as being uniquely bad here Nah, Koss forged the Servants from the cold white flame of UN to be used as, well, servants, while the Angels were created to keep them in line.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:43
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If you haven't figured out yet that this is in part a story about how you can decide your own nature when you're not having reality sundering kung-fu battles then I don't know what to tell you.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:52
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Roland Jones posted:Devils don't have empathy the same way angels don't have gender. 
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Jun 18, 2018 19:54
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PetraCore posted:Note that I'm not arguing that humans oppress poor helpless devils. Just that we've never seen evidence that relatively passive feeding significantly fucks over humans and there's a lot of benefits for the humans from that. It's mutualistic, not parasitic. Now, good ol' Yabalchoath going through 15 slaves a day and gorging on soul flames is no longer a mutually beneficial arrangement, but we've seen a direct comparison to that behavior in a human with Nadia, with the main difference being that Nadia feels bad about it when she lets herself (but still wouldn't ever stop without being forced into it). And yet, despite being a close echo of such a complete and utter monster, Cio very much has empathy and acts on it. It's not that Cio is some magical exception, it's that all devils inherently have the capacity for both. "It probably won't affect me personally so whatever" is sort of implied to be more indicative of human shortsightedness in deciding that makes for a sweet deal than it actually being an objectively smart and good thing, here. Never mind that the devils are strongly motivated to screw sorcerors on the deal. Seems like people itt are looking at extremely basic contradictions in character - a sexless angel that wants to be a girl, a devil that wants to kiss girls instead of eat them - and drawing from that that this is a story about "we're all actually the same deep down, you can be whatever you want to be" and no - Cio doesn't get to opt out of devilry and all it entails any more than Allison gets to opt out of being the Chosen One, Heir to the Throne of Heaven and go back to watching anime in her dorm. This isn't a story about how great denial is. They fundamentally have to play the cards fate dealt them, but that doesn't have to mean playing the socialized roles exactly as others prescribe them. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jun 18, 2018 |
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Jun 18, 2018 20:13
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:"It probably won't affect me personally so whatever" is sort of implied to be more indicative of human shortsightedness in deciding that makes for a sweet deal than it actually being an objectively smart and good thing, here. Never mind that the devils are strongly motivated to screw sorcerors on the deal. lol get outta here you illiterate cheeseball
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Jun 18, 2018 20:26
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Seems like people itt are looking at extremely basic contradictions in character - a sexless angel that wants to be a girl, a devil that wants to kiss girls instead of eat them - and drawing from that that this is a story about "we're all actually the same deep down, you can be whatever you want to be" and no - Cio doesn't get to opt out of devilry and all it entails any more than Allison gets to opt out of being the Chosen One, Heir to the Throne of Heaven and go back to watching anime in her dorm. This isn't a story about how great denial is. They fundamentally have to play the cards fate dealt them, but that doesn't have to mean playing the socialized roles exactly as others prescribe them. My dude, framing "these characters in this story are people and should be thought of as such" as denial is not a great look.
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Jun 18, 2018 20:26
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Also kind of a fundamental misunderstanding of gender dysphoria as denial, thanks for that.
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Jun 18, 2018 20:38
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:and drawing from that that this is a story about "we're all actually the same deep down, you can be whatever you want to be"
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Jun 18, 2018 20:40
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Yeah, I was going to say, taking that logic just as-is, without any change at all, says some ugly things.
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Jun 18, 2018 20:41
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Sorry I came off so aggressive but the framing of 'wants to be a girl' with White Chain made me real mad.
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Jun 18, 2018 21:24
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Tenebrais posted:Avshalom, is that you? Dr Cheeto posted:69 Pink Flamingo Extorts The Hapless Merchant
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Jun 18, 2018 23:50
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PetraCore posted:Sorry I came off so aggressive but the framing of 'wants to be a girl' with White Chain made me real mad. She doesn't want to be, she IS, but all the other angels want to say being in any way similar to a human is weakness I dunno if that's me projecting my own views on trans stuff onto this comic but it was my reading
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Jun 19, 2018 00:15
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Shugojin posted:She doesn't want to be, she IS, but all the other angels want to say being in any way similar to a human is weakness It'll be kind of interesting if it ends up being that other characters like Cio have correctly identified that White Chain is dysphoric and leans feminine but incorrectly concluded that she's a woman, but it's not like White Chain is at the point of like, being open about what she is right now, so all other people can do is guess and speculate, including to some extent the readers. FAKE EDIT: Here's the link to the tumblr post in question, which I only found because I curiously checked out the discussion on White Chain's page on the unofficial wiki. Which desperately needs to be updated, but is why some people were questioning if 'they' is more appropriate than 'she' for White Chain. Feels like the one thing for sure is that 'he' is not correct.
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Jun 19, 2018 00:54
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But the point remains is that White Chain doesn't want to be anything so much as she is something and she's not comfortable expressing it.
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Jun 19, 2018 00:56
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I dunno I just saw White Chain's body taking on all these feminine characteristics and kinda figured it was something related to the nature of the angel that they take form as they start to identify with all these things, and so White Chain is at least drawn towards female stuff And very certainly drawn towards human stuff which is even more what the other angels are making GBS threads all over
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Jun 19, 2018 01:00
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Shugojin posted:I dunno I just saw White Chain's body taking on all these feminine characteristics and kinda figured it was something related to the nature of the angel that they take form as they start to identify with all these things, and so White Chain is at least drawn towards female stuff
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Jun 19, 2018 01:15
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There's a difference between saying that devils, angels, humans, etc. are some way as a result of their nature and saying that's the way they tend to be. There's nothing in human nature that makes us live in buildings, and yet most of us do. Devils and angels are people, they form societies, and the characteristics of those societies are shaped by the necessities of their life cycles, by religious ideas that they have been taught, and by historical accidents relating to their interactions with other societies. Aside from the immortality and magic they're not terribly alien. But they come from cultures with some pretty alien norms - though not so alien that a failure to conform to them isn't met with reprisal. A devil who is honest, loyal, kind, and compassionate can be regarded as analogous to an angel who is feminine.
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Jun 19, 2018 01:42
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Bongo Bill posted:There's a difference between saying that devils, angels, humans, etc. are some way as a result of their nature and saying that's the way they tend to be. There's nothing in human nature that makes us live in buildings, and yet most of us do. Devils and angels are people, they form societies, and the characteristics of those societies are shaped by the necessities of their life cycles, by religious ideas that they have been taught, and by historical accidents relating to their interactions with other societies.
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Jun 19, 2018 02:31
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PetraCore posted:I also agree with this. I suspect it's a lot more common for devils to have like, maybe one or two people they really care for, and everyone else can hang. Catmaster has Mastercat, Nxor and Xand have each other, Praman Nand & Yabalchoath. And Oscar basically wants his girlfriend back, so yeah this checks out. Most of them probably rationalize it as a strategic alliance or long con though.
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Jun 19, 2018 06:15
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White Coke posted:Catmaster has Mastercat, Nxor and Xand have each other, Praman Nand & Yabalchoath. And Oscar basically wants his girlfriend back, so yeah this checks out. Most of them probably rationalize it as a strategic alliance or long con though. Bongo Bill posted:There's a difference between saying that devils, angels, humans, etc. are some way as a result of their nature and saying that's the way they tend to be. There's nothing in human nature that makes us live in buildings, and yet most of us do. Devils and angels are people, they form societies, and the characteristics of those societies are shaped by the necessities of their life cycles, by religious ideas that they have been taught, and by historical accidents relating to their interactions with other societies.
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Jun 19, 2018 06:51
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Their hunger is inborn; their deceit and cruelty is not.
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Jun 19, 2018 07:00
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Dead Reckoning posted:
Come into the universe, eh? Devils in their natural habitat are just mindless blobs of hot black flame. It is humans who build the masks that give them individuality and form. Preem Nand wanted to perfectly recreate the mask that Yabalchoath had in order to resurrect her, indicating that personality is thought to spring from the mask itself rather than from a particular blob of hot black flame. But then we have the counter-example of Princess, whose mask was shattered and got a completely different one, but seems to still have vague memories of her past life as Vladok. So perhaps it's some combination of the two. It's a complicated situation, and there isn't some perfect answer. They are chaotic, their existence is not predefined by definition. There very clearly is, in fact, devil culture. Different degrees of socialization, wildly different personalities. Expectations of what a devil should be, and how they're supposed to act. The reveal of the devil court shows that they're not really all that different from angels, they just have different priorities.
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Jun 19, 2018 07:04
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Bongo Bill posted:Their hunger is inborn; their deceit and cruelty is not. but enough about humans
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Jun 19, 2018 07:04
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Seems like people itt are looking at extremely basic contradictions in character - a sexless angel that wants to be a girl It's only notable that the sexless angel wants to be a girl because all the other sexless angels want to be boys.
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Jun 19, 2018 07:27
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