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rudatron posted:relitigating past revolutions is mostly pointless - we have the benefit of hindsight, the people doing them didn't. The owl of minerva flies at dusk, and so on. No. The closest thing to a revolution nowadays is when folks just cause a lot of trouble/inconvenience for the state to extract concessions, like the Bundys
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Jun 18, 2018 17:41
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Jeb! Repetition posted:No. The closest thing to a revolution nowadays is when folks just cause a lot of trouble/inconvenience for the state to extract concessions, like the Bundys Tell that to the Nepalese
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Jun 18, 2018 17:46
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free twitter display name, /pol/ pot
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Jun 18, 2018 19:26
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libs gtfo this thread
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Jun 19, 2018 00:31
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Jeb! Repetition posted:No. The closest thing to a revolution nowadays is when folks just cause a lot of trouble/inconvenience for the state to extract concessions, like the Bundys the people at standing rock causes more trouble for the government than the retard mormon militia ever has you idiot
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Jun 19, 2018 00:33
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Darkman Fanpage posted:the people at standing rock causes more trouble for the government than the retard mormon militia ever has you idiot except one place now has a pipeline and the other place still has cattle illegally grazing
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Jun 19, 2018 00:36
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Aliquid posted:except one place now has a pipeline and the other place still has cattle illegally grazing because one is treated with kid gloves and the other is ruthlessly smashed. blm is treated as more of a threat than the loving bundy people.
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Jun 19, 2018 00:43
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Russian masses were mostly illiterate and knew nothing about communism and Marxism than what they could be told, but "peace, land, and bread" was all they needed. in 2018.. maybe the communist slogan should be FREE TSHIRTS, WIFI, AND BEER!! haha  just a little joke to lighten the mood itt
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Jun 19, 2018 01:07
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Darkman Fanpage posted:libs gtfo this thread Never!
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Jun 19, 2018 01:15
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Matt Lindland posted:Never! trap sprung
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Jun 19, 2018 01:19
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Darkman Fanpage posted:because one is treated with kid gloves and the other is ruthlessly smashed. blm is treated as more of a threat than the loving bundy people. They treated the Bundys with kid gloves because the Bundys had guns and the feds are cowards
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Jun 19, 2018 01:22
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Jeb! Repetition posted:They treated the Bundys with kid gloves because the Bundys had guns and the feds are cowards MOVE had guns too and the government bombed a city block to murder all of them
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Jun 19, 2018 01:25
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No they treated the bundys with kids gloves because they were white. They also got off scott free for pointing rifles at officers, for the same reason. Had they'd been black, they'd have shot them, or bombed them.
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Jun 19, 2018 01:27
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you can explain Waco because janet reno just straight up loves killing people regardless of their ethnicity
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Jun 19, 2018 01:30
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Yandat posted:you can explain Waco because janet reno just straight up loves killing people regardless of their ethnicity republicans want cops to murder black people, democrats want cops to murder everybody
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Jun 19, 2018 02:16
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StashAugustine posted:republicans want cops to murder black people, democrats want cops to murder everybody I'm a Democrat and against cop murder
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Jun 19, 2018 02:17
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Jeb! Repetition posted:I'm a Democrat and against cop murder Sorry, "people becoming deceased around cops."
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Jun 19, 2018 02:24
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Jeb! Repetition posted:I'm a Democrat and against cop murder You don't support killing cops? hosed up
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Jun 19, 2018 02:55
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loving libs
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Jun 19, 2018 03:21
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Jeb! Repetition posted:I'm a Democrat and against cop murder You support people who support it, there for you support it too. That's how it works.
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Jun 19, 2018 03:46
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Darkman Fanpage posted:loving libs Darkman Fanpage posted:libs gtfo this thread
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Jun 19, 2018 03:54
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wanted to share the tale of concerned Korean War Veteran, James N. Butcher who is disturbed about Trump's disinterest in human rights when discussing North Korean talks there is a lot going on in that interview
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Jun 19, 2018 04:22
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Top City Homo posted:wanted to share the tale of concerned Korean War Veteran, James N. Butcher who is disturbed about Trump's disinterest in human rights when discussing North Korean talks The only Korean veterans whose opinion matters are the defectors to North Korea.
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Jun 19, 2018 04:26
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Yeah the guys who threw Korean babies on wells are worried about human rights now huh
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Jun 19, 2018 04:26
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*while reminiscing about firebombing cities* It's terrifying that they're not talking about human rights.
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Jun 19, 2018 04:28
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apropos to nothing posted:you dont want to threaten the middle class, not so much the capitalists. like a lot of people on the left have a lot of disdain for middle class people and sometimes rightfully so, but policies and demands put forward should always have an eye to trying to win them over or at least keep them neutral because while their class interests align with the workers, they get bigger crumbs so they can be mobilized by the capitalists. capitalists are extremely well organized so its very detrimental if they can win the support of the petite bourgeoisie. middle class is the creche of fascism
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Jun 19, 2018 04:29
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:*while reminiscing about firebombing cities* *last name is Butcher* *Joins army at 19*
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Jun 19, 2018 04:31
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Top City Homo posted:middle class is the creche of fascism yes. if you dont win their support or at least keep them neutral then they will form the backbone of reactionary counter revolution. like i get thats its always cool to say poo poo like the middle class gets the wall too LMAO but almost every serious revolutionary has understood and written about how the petite bourgeois can be won over to the side of the working class, and while theyre not the backbone of the class struggle for the proletariat, it is not correct to drive them into the hands of the counter revolution.
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Jun 19, 2018 11:43
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apropos to nothing posted:yes. if you dont win their support or at least keep them neutral then they will form the backbone of reactionary counter revolution. like i get thats its always cool to say poo poo like the middle class gets the wall too LMAO but almost every serious revolutionary has understood and written about how the petite bourgeois can be won over to the side of the working class, and while theyre not the backbone of the class struggle for the proletariat, it is not correct to drive them into the hands of the counter revolution. Except history has showed time and time again that the petite bourgeios will sell out the revolution once their specific goals are achieved and/or when the social order is threatened. At the end of the day, their socio-economic standing will always be the most important issue to them, and anything that threatens it (even if it's insignificant or imaginary) is an absolute evil that must be crushed. That's why they're the backbone of fascism/authoritarianism.
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Jun 19, 2018 12:27
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MizPiz posted:Except history has showed time and time again that the petite bourgeios will sell out the revolution once their specific goals are achieved and/or when the social order is threatened. At the end of the day, their socio-economic standing will always be the most important issue to them, and anything that threatens it (even if it's insignificant or imaginary) is an absolute evil that must be crushed. That's why they're the backbone of fascism/authoritarianism. Are we talking high-wage-earners here or people rich enough to live off capital gains
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Jun 19, 2018 12:32
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Yeah I don't think our class model is very practical if we're lumping car dealers in with the middle class.
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Jun 19, 2018 12:35
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Aliquid posted:Are we talking high-wage-earners here or people rich enough to live off capital gains Capital gains and "small business owners", though there are some high-wage fields that can be written off (or at least should require a demonstration of support).
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Jun 19, 2018 12:38
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MizPiz posted:Capital gains and "small business owners", though there are some high-wage fields that can be written off (or at least should require a demonstration of support). a few years ago i wanted to be a management consultant for the grift
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Jun 19, 2018 12:41
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Aliquid posted:Are we talking high-wage-earners here or people rich enough to live off capital gains yeah this is an important distinction, and the reality is that the line between working class and capitalist class can be very blurred during this stage of capitalism. any american worker with a 401k could be described as petite bourgeois because their interests do at least partially align with the maintenance of capital. its important to distinguish between the landlord that owns a single home they inherited from their parents and they rent to a single family, versus the landlord that owns several hundred+ unit apartment buildings. the former has working class interests even if they have aspirations to become capitalists. again, the middle class can be recruited in the service of reaction or revolution and while a program should always be based on the political consciousness and organization of the working class, it should at the very least attempt to prevent the middle class going over whole cloth to reaction. an example of what I mean is specifically is like the recent head tax in seattle which would have taxed corporations per employee after they have so many employees. this wouldnt apply to a small shop owner who has 5 employees but instead is focused on large corporations like amazon that prove to be popular targets for workers and even elements of the middle class.
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Jun 19, 2018 12:49
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I think this discussion maybe illustrates the importance of differentiating between principles/ideals and the program. as socialists we strive ultimately for the elimination of class society, so the interests of the middle class or their aspirations dont concern us on a principled level. in terms of the program - the ideas, slogans, demands, etc. put forward by the party or the movement at this moment - their aspirations and interests do concern us because how they orient to a program can impact the success of the program in furthering the political consciousness and organization of the working class.
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Jun 19, 2018 13:05
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you shouldn't intentionally aim to alienate anyone, but the goals and aspirations have to be clear, and that alone is going to create most of your enemies. The key to avoiding 'moderation'/'compromise'/candidates-selling-you-out isn't ideological purity, or trying to find the person with the perfect class background who can meet all the other targets you need in a leader, but to create a structure of your organization, that makes such betrayals impossible.
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Jun 19, 2018 13:15
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https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1009047375258816512
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Jun 19, 2018 13:18
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https://twitter.com/Rhizzone_Txt/status/913485713848569856
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Jun 19, 2018 13:20
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Jun 19, 2018 13:50
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