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https://mobile.twitter.com/Rhizzone_Txt/status/913149247264104449
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Jun 19, 2018 14:10
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| # ? May 10, 2024 20:46 |
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did those marines who posed in front of an ss flag ever get disciplined
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Jun 19, 2018 16:04
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ah, you mean the “scout sniper” flag
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Jun 19, 2018 16:06
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unless you offer the bourgeoisie a compromise of some sort, in return for giving up their capital and the power and status that comes with it, you are going to have to fight them for it. if you don't offer the powerful in society a guarantee that they will retain a higher status of some sort in the post-capitalist order, one determined on the basis of qualities that at least a fraction of the bourgeoisie believe, falsely or correctly in individual cases, themselves to possess, such as technical skill, education in academic subjects or whatever, there will be no rational motivation for the bourgeoisie to break with their own class interests. the goal of even trucking with the bourgeoi class as I understand it, by making material arguments to the classes in power in society, is to break their class unity and therefore their ability to resist the socialist cause yeah? you can't do that unless you convince the ones among them with something of value to the revolution that they'll be rewarded for their skill
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Jun 19, 2018 16:25
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apropos to nothing posted:yes. if you dont win their support or at least keep them neutral then they will form the backbone of reactionary counter revolution. like i get thats its always cool to say poo poo like the middle class gets the wall too LMAO but almost every serious revolutionary has understood and written about how the petite bourgeois can be won over to the side of the working class, and while theyre not the backbone of the class struggle for the proletariat, it is not correct to drive them into the hands of the counter revolution. i didn't say that they need to go to the wall the point is that bourgie intellectuals influence the middle class more than any other and like liberals they will betray you at the first moment that their idealism or careerism doesn't mash with reality also saying that "we" will drive them into the hands of the counter revolution makes you sound like Bari Weiss the middle class forms the backbone of the counter revolution because liberalism is closer to fascism and educated liberals who lose their social status simply radicalize that ideology and take it to their conclusive end the left doesn't create fascists
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Jun 19, 2018 16:46
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lollontee posted:unless you offer the bourgeoisie a compromise of some sort, in return for giving up their capital and the power and status that comes with it, you are going to have to fight them for it. if you don't offer the powerful in society a guarantee that they will retain a higher status of some sort in the post-capitalist order, one determined on the basis of qualities that at least a fraction of the bourgeoisie believe, falsely or correctly in individual cases, themselves to possess, such as technical skill, education in academic subjects or whatever, there will be no rational motivation for the bourgeoisie to break with their own class interests. the goal of even trucking with the bourgeoi class as I understand it, by making material arguments to the classes in power in society, is to break their class unity and therefore their ability to resist the socialist cause yeah? you can't do that unless you convince the ones among them with something of value to the revolution that they'll be rewarded for their skill The class interests of the bourgeoisie are already being realized right now. There's no deal you can possibly offer them that's better than what they already have, and they have no impulse to become class traitors because they're overwhelmingly committed ideologically to maintaining their class power. This is why things usually have to come to head in a civil war in the first place, because the moment communists start showing any real power they start killing us.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:11
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And besides, you can make a lot more headway trying to convert workers instead of capitalists, because (a) you can actually promise them a better deal than what they have now, and (b) there's just a hell of a lot more of them.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:18
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The class interests of the bourgeoisie are already being realized right now. There's no deal you can possibly offer them that's better than what they already have, and they have no impulse to become class traitors because they're overwhelmingly committed ideologically to maintaining their class power. This is why things usually have to come to head in a civil war in the first place, because the moment communists start showing any real power they start killing us. I didn't mean to offer them a better deal, just a deal. Some bourgeoisie genuinely believe they are rich because of their personal qualities, skills or other things that let them maintain a self-identity as a righteous person deserving of a higher social status. These people can be persuaded in some cases with the right kind of arguments to support socialist projects even if they won't truly convert, and with the power even a minority of the bourgeoisie commands, would be invaluable for the struggle preceding the revolutionary war. and yeah, most of them can't be persuaded, but unless you wanna fight everyone at the same time, you gotta at least try to win some of our enemies over
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Jun 19, 2018 17:27
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wasnt he explicitly trying to get kicked out of the army though
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Jun 19, 2018 17:31
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Top City Homo posted:i didn't say that they need to go to the wall Except in Nazi Germany where Nazis sprang up from all classes and it wasn't just the petit-bourgeoisie? Also I don't know how the petit-bourgeoisie can make up the backbone of the counter revolution when as capitalism runs its course it continuously swallows up these small capitalists by virtue of the bigger capitalists who can afford to sell lower than them and buy them out or run them out of business. That's assuming you mean petit-bourgeoisie when you refer to the middle class (which definitely includes proles).
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Jun 19, 2018 18:09
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Infernot posted:Except in Nazi Germany where Nazis sprang up from all classes and it wasn't just the petit-bourgeoisie? Not really, no, Nazi support was disproportionately drawn from the lower middle classes, and their breakthroughs came when they leaned hard into that and gave up on convincing the proles
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Jun 19, 2018 20:37
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arguably, there is no mass proletariat in the united states. that's why i always find the comparisons to nazi germany or the USSR or china to be kind of silly. the structures of these countries are all very different and require different methods (mao was right!) at this point, i think what most people think of as the petit bourgeoisie in the states are going to get crushed with just about everyone else. things aren't good! #my2cents
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Jun 19, 2018 20:58
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Karl Barks posted:arguably, there is no mass proletariat in the united states. that's why i always find the comparisons to nazi germany or the USSR or china to be kind of silly. the structures of these countries are all very different and require different methods (mao was right!) actually Nazi germany is a very excellent analog for the modern US in terms of class composition if you accept the proletarian nature of the service sector working class. the major difference is Germany in he 20s and 30s actually had an active and almost dominant left
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Jun 19, 2018 21:11
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Bryter posted:Not really, no, Nazi support was disproportionately drawn from the lower middle classes, and their breakthroughs came when they leaned hard into that and gave up on convincing the proles quote:Some historians have made class-based arguments about the rise of Nazism. Marxist historians suggest that big business supported the Nazis, and that Nazism was simply a tool to perpetuate monopoly capitalism. Others claimed that Nazism was a movement of lower-middle-class peasants and small businessmen who opposed both free-market liberalism and socialism. Yet others contend that Nazism represented a “revolt of the masses,” a rebellion of the common man against his lowly place in society. We now know, though, that Nazi voters ranged across German society. Almost one in three Nazi voters was a worker. Class-based analyses do not explain Hitler’s rise to power. Hitler’s assumption of power was neither necessary nor inevitable. Rather, it is best explained through immediate causes that arose during the Great Depression: a failing political system, Nazi electoral tactics, and the intrigues of conservative politicians. quote:While Hitler’s party made the greatest inroads among voters in the Protestant towns and rural areas of northern Germany, the Nazis attracted German voters of all stripes: northern and southern, urban and rural, old and young, men and women, rich and poor, educated and uneducated, reputable and ignoble. Just two groups proved resistant to the Nazis. Catholics stuck to their Center Party, and most urban workers continued to support the SPD or the more militant KPD. Many historians suggest that Nazi voters were primarily protest voters. Fed up with the republic, they voted for the Nazis to protest a system they despised. The historian Peter Fritzsche, however, argues that the Nazis offered a new kind of politics that many Germans found appealing. These Germans fondly recalled the “spirit of 1914,” when the country had pulled together for the war effort. They now sought a politics that transcended the polarizing interest-group politics that characterized the Weimar political system. They were drawn to a dynamic movement that seemed to promote both nationalism and social justice. Hitler’s message of German unity, strength, and renewal resonated with them. Both quotes are from "Nazi Germany: Confronting the Myths" by Catherine Epstein. So either Epstein is wrong and the class I took on Nazi Germany that used this as a textbook was misinformed, or there's been new information since 2015 that you're drawing from.
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Jun 19, 2018 21:19
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https://twitter.com/BLACKMESSlAH/status/841308362503532548 Good thread - I want to read the full book but have not yet.
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Jun 19, 2018 21:24
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GalacticAcid posted:https://twitter.com/BLACKMESSlAH/status/841308362503532548 strongest indicator was protestantism. we're hosed! I guess I have some issues with the idea that there is some kind of deterministic model of who becomes a fascist, in general. or that deducing that model is even helpful. interesting thread tho ^^
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Jun 19, 2018 21:33
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Infernot posted:Both quotes are from "Nazi Germany: Confronting the Myths" by Catherine Epstein. So either Epstein is wrong and the class I took on Nazi Germany that used this as a textbook was misinformed, or there's been new information since 2015 that you're drawing from. Yes, your class and textbook are both wrong. The German working classes and peasantry were underrepresented in Nazi support, and the middle classes were overrepresented.
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Jun 19, 2018 21:44
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Bryter posted:Yes, your class and textbook are both wrong. The German working classes and peasantry were underrepresented in Nazi support, and the middle classes were overrepresented. this is 100% true as a broad description but was also interestingly complicated by a lot of weird intersections on the ground. like rural landholders who had been hit particularly hard by the depression (or so they thought, actually they had it loving great compared to the urban poor especially in the last years of wwi, the "turnip winter" and stuff, which were so critically formative for the nazi worldview) and weren't wealthy, many of whom had family members who worked in small industrial centers, and had economic interests that they felt were served both by the nazi emphasis on rural life being broadly moral (and the nationalism they found appealing) and by their pseudo-socialist economic policies, which were particularly pronounced before they seized power. then you take into account the huge numbers of veterans who were traditionally proletarian but had been so hosed over after the war and thoroughly radicalized by right wing professional racial pessimists and charlatans that they joined huge roving gangs of right wing lunatics to fight the reichsbanner in the street. and then the even weirder geographic political correlations where certain neighborhoods, for whatever cultural/economic/demographic reason were thoroughly sympathetic to the rightist parties and thus, at least as a temporary stopgap, the nazis even if they were traditionally poor ofc the supermajority of the german working class (which was a plurality of the total population and probably the best opportunity for a real proletarian vanguard to emerge in an industrialized, developed country during the spartacist riots) was straight up communist and the KPD sucked rear end and was collaborationist and ultimately hosed up really bad so many times that the nazis managed to bumble their way into fooling a senile guy into passing some empowering decrees the best book i read on the subject was "The Nazi Seizure of Power" which was a micro history about a small town in central germany and how the nazi takeover of the german state, the war, and the holocaust effected the individuals who lived there, from farmers to workers to convicts to soldiers and so on, its really fantastically thorough and insightful. but only if you've read a good real history of the nazi rise to power that isnt' some bullshit garbage like that epstein book https://www.amazon.com/Nazi-Seizure-Power-Experience-1922-1945/dp/1626548722 ed: the part about the protest votes is sort of consistent with what i learned in grad school, that many rightist voters felt hitler could be controlled by the actual conservatives, but the "new politics" and spirit of 1914 angle are bunk
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Jun 19, 2018 22:07
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Karl Barks posted:strongest indicator was protestantism. we're hosed! I think that had more to do with the fact that Catholics were extremely loyal to the center party. You could count on the Catholics vote going to center, Protestants divided their votes all over the political spectrum
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Jun 19, 2018 22:15
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also the nazis were really mealy mouthed about their promises re: keeping the catholic church intact while simultaneously decrying it as a negative judeo bolshevik influence on the glorious bluten boden of the german body politic
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Jun 19, 2018 22:23
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Karl Barks posted:arguably, there is no mass proletariat in the united states. that's exactly what the bourgeoisie wants you to think
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Jun 19, 2018 22:34
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dsa ex troop owns
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Jun 20, 2018 00:27
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Karl Barks posted:arguably, there is no mass proletariat in the united states. The proletariat exists regardless of its lack of class consciousness.
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Jun 20, 2018 00:34
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nah I'm an 1880s Marxist and therefore the only proletarians are people who have a not insignificant chance of losing limbs to a steam hammer
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Jun 20, 2018 01:20
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The proletariat exists regardless of its lack of class consciousness. sure, i agree
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Jun 20, 2018 01:29
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 Apparently Waka Flocka Flame was telling XXXtentacion to read Gaddafi's Green Book back in March, for some reason.
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Jun 20, 2018 01:47
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Infernot posted:Except in Nazi Germany where Nazis sprang up from all classes and it wasn't just the petit-bourgeoisie? most support for the Nazis came from the well off and employed while the unemployed, industrial and precarious labor had the mass support of the KPD or if skilled labor, the SPD the only true nazi relation to labor was forced labor you can read about it here quote:Also I don't know how the petit-bourgeoisie can make up the backbone of the counter revolution when as capitalism runs its course it continuously swallows up these small capitalists by virtue of the bigger capitalists who can afford to sell lower than them and buy them out or run them out of business. That's assuming you mean petit-bourgeoisie when you refer to the middle class (which definitely includes proles). nazis drew heavily from artisans, craft workers, bureaucrats, farmers and other atomized self employed the potatosackterians and mercenary military gangs
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Jun 20, 2018 01:49
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Infernot posted:
Lmao
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Jun 20, 2018 01:53
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Yandat posted:dsa ex troop owns “I consider myself a revolutionary socialist,” he told The Associated Press. “I would encourage all soldiers who have a conscience to lay down their arms and join me and so many others who are willing to stop serving the agents of imperialism and join us in a revolutionary movement.” you have to be pretty stupidly tankie to think he wanted to still be a troop or w/e
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Jun 20, 2018 03:57
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to be fair that kind of feels like it was spoken by a cia guy to trick other socialists into snitching on themselves
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Jun 20, 2018 04:02
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please join me, fellow communist comrades, as we begin partaking in illegal acts within the united states and its overseas territories
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Jun 20, 2018 04:02
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if dsa troop is a psy op, he’s a p cool psy op gotta say
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Jun 20, 2018 04:05
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should have done what i did and failed pt tests on purpose so i can become The Most Privileged Man
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Jun 20, 2018 04:39
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:“I consider myself a revolutionary socialist,” he told The Associated Press. “I would encourage all soldiers who have a conscience to lay down their arms and join me and so many others who are willing to stop serving the agents of imperialism and join us in a revolutionary movement.” Yeah, the guy who goes through all the trouble of graduating West Point definitely didn't want to be a troop, lmao. It's cool that Rapone was practically trying to get discharged and that the only reason he was is that Marco Rubio cried about a communist WP grad, but he absolutely wanted to be a troop circa 2017.
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Jun 20, 2018 05:42
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I can admire his courage, but also have to ask him 'what did you think was gonna happen'. He's just some naive kid, there's no point looking deeper. It's still 100% bullshit hypocrisy on the part of Rubio and Co.
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Jun 20, 2018 06:03
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Top City Homo posted:i didn't say that they need to go to the wall people active in the western left, in the us especially, want to "save" the petit bourgeoisie because for the most part this is their class background. goon danton is right that if we manage to pick up a few of them, fine, but there are way more workers and they will be far more easy to convince, so they should be the organizational focus. Infernot posted:
hell yes
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Jun 20, 2018 07:26
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there's arguably some value in targeting certain professions, because they might have skillsets (ie engineering) that are useful in the struggle. But it's always going to be an uneasy situation. Ideally, the process of struggle would mean developing that skillset within already-aligned groups.
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Jun 20, 2018 07:56
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its not a matter of recruiting those middle/upper middle class people into the party its about keeping them neutral or at least not mobilizing in opposition. if you've ever done any mass work you know that within most labor orgs and unions these folks exist, as well as any "activist" type org. groups like indivisible, our revolution, and even some DSA chapters are filled with high wage earners/middle class/petite bourgeois/however you want to classify them folk. obviously indivisible is not filled with socialists, but you can find success mobilizing their membership around certain issues and demands given the right approach and how receptive groups like those are can often be a good barometer of how the public at large will respond when canvassing and tabling.
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Jun 20, 2018 10:36
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Infernot posted:
Waka Flocka's going to lead a leftist vanguard org
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Jun 20, 2018 12:44
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| # ? May 10, 2024 20:46 |
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:“I consider myself a revolutionary socialist,” he told The Associated Press. “I would encourage all soldiers who have a conscience to lay down their arms and join me and so many others who are willing to stop serving the agents of imperialism and join us in a revolutionary movement.” yes, the guy who volunteered to join the world police, the great cracker army, the yankee SS of the fourth reich, etc, was deployed to afghanistan, came back and thought "the problem here is that i'm not the boss" so he joined west point and decided to become an officer, did not want to be a troop. oh, but he wore a shirt from hot topic and wrote "communism rules" in his hat, sorry i was being very tanky and didn't notice that part. he also asked very nicely for his nazi pals still in the army to put down their guns and hold hands with him in front of their local FBI headquarters so they can do a revolution and overthrow the government. my bad, hes good now. Red Salute (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 20, 2018 13:38
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