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I know Ford wasn’t actually on contract for ROTJ. That doesn’t change the fact that ESB ends by telling the audience that there is a plan and the heroes are going to do something about his capture.
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Jun 19, 2018 15:45
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Halloween Jack posted:I'm not saying TLJ is as good as Empire, but people did react negatively to Empire being such a downer, didn't they? It ends with Luke Skywalker deciding that he can't break the cycle of tyranny, and attempting suicide. http://www.acriticalhit.com/fans-react-empire-strikes-back-1980/
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Jun 19, 2018 15:46
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Zoran posted:I know Ford wasn’t actually on contract for ROTJ. That doesn’t change the fact that ESB ends by telling the audience that there is a plan and the heroes are going to do something about his capture. Fair enough, but the last line of TLJ is still Leia reassuring Rey, "We have everything we need," and the final scene is trying to show that people are inspired by Luke Skywalker again which is plants the seed of rebellion or some such florid rubbish. Now you can quite reasonably argue you think it does a bad job of it and lots of people would agree with you but I don't think it's ending on a fundamentally hopeless note myself. I feel like "hope in the face of a hopeless situation" is one of those things Star Wars tends to do.  Again, though, maybe that's because my first impression watching it in the cinema (which has evidently remained with me) wasn't that this is literally the entire Resistance, and I assumed some of them had already escaped before the movie started.
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Jun 19, 2018 15:57
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The thing is, it doesn't matter, because TLJ's general thesis is that the Resistance is worthless. They're not going to do anything about slavery, corruption, or greed, their heroics are self-destructive, they'll never break free of the Jedi dogma that contains the seeds of its own destruction. Dark will always rise to balance light, so whether there's twelve rebels or twelve thousand, they're still not actually doing any good.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:11
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Angry Salami posted:The thing is, it doesn't matter, because TLJ's general thesis is that the Resistance is worthless. They're not going to do anything about slavery, corruption, or greed, their heroics are self-destructive, they'll never break free of the Jedi dogma that contains the seeds of its own destruction. Dark will always rise to balance light, so whether there's twelve rebels or twelve thousand, they're still not actually doing any good. Well, we have apparently determined in this thread (or maybe the other one - they blur together a bit) that the Rebel Alliance was literally the House of Bourbon so that's just the way Star Wars rolls, I guess. 
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Jun 19, 2018 16:17
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Related to the people not believing Vader is Luke's father, Lucas explains on the commentary for Return of the Jedi that he consulted a child psychologist who told him unless it was conclusively stated by characters they trusted, then young children wouldn't believe it was true. This is why both Yoda and Obi-Wan say Vader is his father.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:27
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Thanks! The reactions ran a gamut but were pretty much what I expected. Except all the people who thought Vader was just lying; that didn't occur to me. Nowadays its the opposite; people assume everything every character says is expository dialogue. Almost Blue posted:Related to the people not believing Vader is Luke's father, Lucas explains on the commentary for Return of the Jedi that he consulted a child psychologist who told him unless it was conclusively stated by characters they trusted, then young children wouldn't believe it was true. This is why both Yoda and Obi-Wan say Vader is his father.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:01
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Obi is an hilarious poo poo. In that scene he sits down on a log (because his ghost legs are tired), he breaks out the certain point of view line, and then pouts when Luke won't commit to killing Vader. Somewhat related to that, the one advantage of the 2-year gap between episodes instead of 3 is that all of the main cast isn't absolutely sick of making star wars and itching to move on professionally by the third one. Or maybe that's just the power of Disney's propaganda machine.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:36
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Ingmar terdman posted:Somewhat related to that, the one advantage of the 2-year gap between episodes instead of 3 is that all of the main cast isn't absolutely sick of making star wars and itching to move on professionally by the third one. Or maybe that's just the power of Disney's propaganda machine. I believe Daisy Ridley's said she'd be content to finish after three then maybe come back a few years later for sequels.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:42
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A hopeful path of genuine rebellion is laid out in TLJ but I kind of doubt Abrams will follow it.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:44
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TLJ ends with a little kid telling you that you too can be a part of the ResistanceTM if you pledge fealty to the brand and buy the merchandise, hence the scene where he literally plays with a Luke Skywalker action figure and his toy lightsaber/broom. It is one of the most cynical movies I have ever seen.
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Jun 19, 2018 19:29
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Star Wars became about "merch" the second Lucas bought the toy rights off Fox shortly before ANH came out. Dude knew exactly what he was doing there.
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Jun 19, 2018 19:57
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Van Dis posted:TLJ ends with a little kid telling you that you too can be a part of the ResistanceTM if you pledge fealty to the brand and buy the merchandise, hence the scene where he literally plays with a Luke Skywalker action figure and his toy lightsaber/broom. It is one of the most cynical movies I have ever seen. One way to read it but that was also the kid who got his ring from and was motivated by Rose who is def not in the Leia tradition of republican resistance. JJ will probably make the liberals win tho in the end
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Jun 19, 2018 20:00
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Cross-Section posted:Star Wars became about "merch" the second Lucas bought the toy rights off Fox shortly before ANH came out. Dude knew exactly what he was doing there. The lone entity that rivaled Star Wars in merchandising was Disney itself, prior to Disney buying it. Now it can finally reach its full potential in the Force (TM)(C)(R).
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Jun 19, 2018 20:00
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euphronius posted:One way to read it but that was also the kid who got his ring from and was motivated by Rose who is def not in the Leia tradition of republican resistance. Rose gave a decoder ring to a slave child so that she could go back to fighting for Leia. Also frees a bunch of horses.
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Jun 19, 2018 20:46
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I like the scene where they do some vandalism at the craven plutocrats, Star Wars needs a bit more Baader-Meinhof imo
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Jun 19, 2018 20:47
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How do we know the war profiteers are bad?
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Jun 19, 2018 21:25
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General Dog posted:How do we know the war profiteers are bad?
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Jun 19, 2018 21:44
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The war profiteers are as hollow and nonsensical to the plot as the rest of the sequel setting honestly. If the New Republic rules the Galaxy (except for where the First Order simultaneously does/does not rule). Then from what third party are these arms dealers even based from? Arms dealers selling to both sides in a war happens, but it only happens when there's other entities besides the two currently fighting. Is there some hereto unmentioned Space-Switzerland in the Galaxy that's managed to stay independent during all these Star Wars? Is Canto Bight in Space-Switzerland? They seem to have slavery (which was illegal in the Old Republic and I would assume by default the New) but they apparently don't hold allegiance to the First Order. Yet they seem to not mind that a totalitarian state that will not tolerate the existence of other powers has blown up the galactic capital (which would be bad for any business) and seized control of the known universe.
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Jun 19, 2018 22:41
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galagazombie posted:The war profiteers are as hollow and nonsensical to the plot as the rest of the sequel setting honestly. If the New Republic rules the Galaxy (except for where the First Order simultaneously does/does not rule). Then from what third party are these arms dealers even based from? Arms dealers selling to both sides in a war happens, but it only happens when there's other entities besides the two currently fighting. Is there some hereto unmentioned Space-Switzerland in the Galaxy that's managed to stay independent during all these Star Wars? Is Canto Bight in Space-Switzerland? They seem to have slavery (which was illegal in the Old Republic and I would assume by default the New) but they apparently don't hold allegiance to the First Order. Yet they seem to not mind that a totalitarian state that will not tolerate the existence of other powers has blown up the galactic capital (which would be bad for any business) and seized control of the known universe. The First Order are the New Republic, in the basic sense that they rose up from inside and control the majority of the New Republic. The arms dealers are not a third party. They are corporations operating inside the New Republic.
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Jun 19, 2018 23:29
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Halloween Jack posted:I'm not saying TLJ is as good as Empire, but people did react negatively to Empire being such a downer, didn't they? It ends with Luke Skywalker deciding that he can't break the cycle of tyranny, and attempting suicide. No, it was Luke deciding he couldn't be part of the cycle of tyranny, even at the cost of his life. Dying wasn't the goal. Not submitting to Vader was the goal, and dying was the method. Meanwhile, Last Jedi explicitly states that good and evil will keep ping ponging back and forth for all eternity on automatic.
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Jun 19, 2018 23:56
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luke says the light and the dark ping pong. I dont think he mentioned evil and good.
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Jun 19, 2018 23:58
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galagazombie posted:The war profiteers are as hollow and nonsensical to the plot as the rest of the sequel setting honestly. If the New Republic rules the Galaxy (except for where the First Order simultaneously does/does not rule). Then from what third party are these arms dealers even based from? Arms dealers selling to both sides in a war happens, but it only happens when there's other entities besides the two currently fighting.
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Jun 20, 2018 00:46
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Halloween Jack posted:Thanks! The reactions ran a gamut but were pretty much what I expected. Except all the people who thought Vader was just lying; that didn't occur to me. It's bad enough that this kid is going to finish off Vader because he didn't have the cajones to do it years ago. Demonstrating that loving him as family instead of rejecting him over dogma was the path to defeating the Dark Side meant that Obi-wan's core values were fundamentally wrong, and the entire fall of the Republuc and rise of the Empire were ultimately his fault for being a bad Jedi. He's a bit salty about it yeah.
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Jun 20, 2018 04:26
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Halloween Jack posted:During the Spanish Civil War, Texaco operated as a branch of the Wehrmacht and, just, got away with it. But that's just what I'm saying. Texaco was not part of the factions fighting over control of Spain. They were from an uninvolved third entity (The U.S.) and selling to a group (The Fascists) that the U.S. was not in conflict with. For the comparison to work, the galaxy the Republic/First Order are fighting over would have to have other galaxies/polities not locked in the struggle that these arms dealers can be based out of. But in Star Wars theres just the one Galaxy far far away. As much as the American business elite loved fascism, once Pearl Harbor happened (And really before). They couldn't really lend them any meaningful support. At best you had subsidiaries like the coke guys who invented Fanta who were really just a separate company (That likewise couldn't sell to the U.S.) until the war was over and HQ came and repossessed all their stuff.
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Jun 20, 2018 05:24
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I see your point, but the Empire is undergoing internal crisis, so it's plausible that private companies and entire planetary governments are selling weapons to both the provisional government and a revanchist movement. The New Republic is clearly unable to exercise discipline over the territory it purports to govern. Bearing in mind that the Old Republic appears to have been not so much a single republic as a strong confederation of sovereign planets. It seems to me that a big part of the appeal of the Separatist movement was that their rhetoric acknowledged the property rights and sovereignty of its members, even if in practice everything was directed by a small group of bickering people. Not entirely unlike the Confederacy. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jun 20, 2018 |
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Jun 20, 2018 14:38
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To me the sticking point is the self-satisfied way Benicio del Toro tells us about the weapons manufacturers selling to both sides, implying you'd be naive to not think that was happening, which doesn't mesh well with how weird it is for it to be going on in what seems like a galaxy-spanning war instead of just a regional conflict. It's not that it's implausible as a plot point, but the way it's treated by the characters.
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Jun 20, 2018 17:22
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the only way the rebellion can be saved is if they abandon the republic and try for something new. The way the republic collapsed was clearly because of entropy/decadence, and not any outside threat. edit: truly a weimar republic
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Jun 20, 2018 17:45
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Wild Horses posted:the only way the rebellion can be saved is if they abandon the republic and try for something new. Sadly, I have little hope for Kylo and Rey uniting over a shared commitment to smashing the state and overthrowing capital. Kind of a pity, since it should be possible to create a post-scarcity utopia machine with the type of resources that go into things like the Death Star.
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Jun 20, 2018 18:05
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Hodgepodge posted:Sadly, I have little hope for Kylo and Rey uniting over a shared commitment to smashing the state and overthrowing capital. They're going to compromise on re-establishing a liberal democracy with a strong commitment to military spending.
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Jun 20, 2018 18:24
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Gotta get ready for the Yuuzhan Vong
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Jun 20, 2018 18:41
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Shanty posted:Gotta get ready for the Yuuzhan Vong There was a planned Clone Wars episode with them, and they lacked the Force immunity due to the direction Lucas had taken the Force (such as the Father, Son, and Daughter, and the Force Priestesses seen during Yoda's arc in Season 6) The Vong encountered were just advance scouts My guess is that is what led Anakin to meeting Thrawn in the first place
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Jun 20, 2018 19:15
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Vinylshadow posted:There was a planned Clone Wars episode with them, and they lacked the Force immunity due to the direction Lucas had taken the Force (such as the Father, Son, and Daughter, and the Force Priestesses seen during Yoda's arc in Season 6) What even would have been the point of them, then?
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Jun 20, 2018 19:23
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Apparently the big Star Wars News that was getting rumbled about the other day was that all spinoff films are on hold. Episode IX and "the new trilogy" (presumed to be RJ's) are the only active film projects http://collider.com/star-wars-spinoffs-on-hold/
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Jun 20, 2018 19:43
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Goddamn my right knuckles are throbbing, I think I'm empathically bonded to Ewan McGregor
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Jun 20, 2018 19:46
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Wheat Loaf posted:What even would have been the point of them, then? Something something invading alien race? Tone back their ritualistic mutilation and play up symbiotic relationship to their ships and weapons, and abhorrence of technology
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Jun 20, 2018 19:48
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Wheat Loaf posted:What even would have been the point of them, then? Eh, that was only one part of them, and I think the worst part. Using biotechnology, hating all artificial tech and droids, and self mutilation as a religion would still be there. And being an unexpected force from outside of the galaxy with tech not understood by our characters. It could have been alright. Still probably best to leave it be. jivjov posted:Apparently the big Star Wars News that was getting rumbled about the other day was that all spinoff films are on hold. Episode IX and "the new trilogy" (presumed to be RJ's) are the only active film projects God dammit, Solo.
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Jun 20, 2018 19:52
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::looks up figures:: Huh. Solo looks expensive, but not $275 million expensive.
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Jun 20, 2018 20:01
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Halloween Jack posted:::looks up figures:: That's what happens when you re-shoot ~70 percent of a movie that was already two weeks away from being done.
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Jun 20, 2018 20:02
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Harime Nui posted:Goddamn my right knuckles are throbbing, I think I'm empathically bonded to Ewan McGregor How does it feel to be despised by your children?
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Jun 20, 2018 20:41
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