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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Abstract assault so that it's unit fighting unit, and when a unit falls back give the other unit the opportunity to perform a Final Strike that hits on sixes, like a reverse Overwatch. These are the changes I'd like to see. I like that you can fall back from assault, after multiple editions of my jabronis just sitting in combat with a Dreadnought they couldn't hurt, waiting to die. I would like it if there was a little more danger from falling back, but not being able to shoot or charge is a pretty good detractor. Uroboros posted:As someone who plays Codex Marines I feel assault is plenty effective, but everything is effective against my army, so whatever... After a trio of games this weekend where my Templars' best strategy was "cower in a crater and try not to die", I feel you. It's silly how the trademark close combat unit of my chapter is better as a 5 man fire support squad, and there aren't enough high value shots coming out of my army to actually be effective. I'm wavering on bringing my Templars to NOVA, as much as I love the army. Even in casual games against people who don't play very often I'm getting thrashed.
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Jun 19, 2018 15:31
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Zodiac5000 posted:Wait, can dreadnoughts not normally use drop pods anymore? I remember you used to be able to do 1 dreadnought or 1 squad of tactical marines, just you couldn't charge out of the drop pod the turn you fell. No, they took that away this ed. Really annoying.
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Jun 19, 2018 15:35
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"Beer4theBeerGod" posted:Abstract assault so that it's unit fighting unit, and when a unit falls back give the other unit the opportunity to perform a Final Strike that hits on sixes, like a reverse Overwatch. This is the best idea to come out of this thread, holy poo poo.
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Jun 19, 2018 15:38
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SRM posted:These are the changes I'd like to see. I like that you can fall back from assault, after multiple editions of my jabronis just sitting in combat with a Dreadnought they couldn't hurt, waiting to die. I would like it if there was a little more danger from falling back, but not being able to shoot or charge is a pretty good detractor. Assault is bonkers good this edition, as it has been since 6th, but for different reasons now that you can stop whole castles from shooting with careful movement and a huge unit. It's why cultists are one of the best units in the game and shooting platforms that cant fallback and shoot are a trap most of the time. The crusader squad has always been a better MSU shooting unit. Nothing has changed in 3 editions. Thankfully power armor is trash this edition so it doesn't matter!
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Jun 19, 2018 15:42
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Naramyth posted:Assault is bonkers good this edition, as it has been since 6th, but for different reasons now that you can stop whole castles from shooting with careful movement and a huge unit. It's why cultists are one of the best units in the game and shooting platforms that cant fallback and shoot are a trap most of the time. I think this is the disconnect. People want assault units to be good, which means fighty elite units or things designed around killing stuff. They're mostly trash with exceptions for stuff like BA caps or Custodes which are fast/tough/cheap (pick all three). Assault is really useful because of its effect on shooting units, even if you don't do a single wound and just bumper car things around. Garbage like cultists clogging up a castle and stopping it shooting isn't exactly what players have in mind for their assault units.
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Jun 19, 2018 15:56
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Zodiac5000 posted:edit - What the hell is a 'hellblaster' squad? Is it literally just a 10-man unit of guys with plasma guns? That seems... hilarious. They're one of the new Primaris marines- bigger, tougher dudes in mark x armor. Hellblasters are assault with all plasma, Intercessors are troops with bolt rifles, Inceptors are flying fast attack with dual assault bolters, and Reivers are close range elites with bolt carbines and a bunch of grenades.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:01
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3rd Edition Close Combat rules were the worst.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:01
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dexefiend posted:3rd Edition Close Combat rules were the worst. 3rd ed is the last time assault heavy armies were good.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:07
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Naramyth posted:The crusader squad has always been a better MSU shooting unit. Nothing has changed in 3 editions. Thankfully power armor is trash this edition so it doesn't matter! Yeah, I'm currently chasing that 4th ed meta. By 2035 I might be able to actually win a game!
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Jun 19, 2018 16:07
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Pendent posted:We do have some extremely powerful options available but I'd not claim they're broken or anything. There's a specific Captain build referred to colloquially as "Slamguinius" for instance who is, if you dump enough command points into him, quite capable of killing a Primarch or something like a Knight in a single round of combat. Kills Primarchs and Knights solo, in a single round. Costs 129 points. Not broken. 
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Jun 19, 2018 16:09
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Maneck posted:Kills Primarchs and Knights solo, in a single round. Costs 129 points. Also requires you to invest basically all your command points into a single dude, and your opponent to be dumb enough to know you have one and not just screen him out.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:13
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Corrode posted:I think this is the disconnect. People want assault units to be good Cultists are assault units, dingus. They sure as gently caress aren't going to shoot things with their knives and clubs
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Jun 19, 2018 16:14
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PierreTheMime posted:Make it true reverse overwatch, make hits on 6s for free, and then have an opposing roll to escape with bonuses to swarms against infantry and infantry against monsters/vehicles. Hahahaha perfect. Charging is 2d6 with Overwatch hitting on 6s. Falling Back is 2d6 with Final Strike hitting on 6s as well.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:14
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Pendent posted:Note that adding around 100pts to the cost of a Furioso for a 33ish% chance at a turn 2 charge does not make them much better, surprisingly. I never said they would. The matter was in regard to could they still do it. They still can. Thanks for playing.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:18
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Corrode posted:3rd ed is the last time assault heavy armies were good. Playing Tau in 3rd edition: One assault marine charges your 12 man Fire Warrior squad. Kills two of your guys. Your guys break, and flee 2d6, he pursues 3d6. Your entire squad dies. He then sweeping advances 6" into another squad. While that one guy engages your guys, noone in the squad can shoot, and the entire footprint of the squad blocks all LOS. Also, you can't shoot into combat. So, you basically are hosed. I think you were also forced to remove casualties closest first. So, he killed the guys that could swing back. Tau also had initiative 1 I think, so always swung last.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:18
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This is why I said 8th assault is not friendly. Its fiddly, counter intuitive, an blob assault is what works unless what you have is a kill dozer that can chain consolidate. I love my chaos raptors but in combat they don't do dick against anything armor 4+ an now wait a turn just to come in.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:22
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Completely abstracting away the nuance to assault sounds miserable and boring, no thank you. I play an assault army because I've always found the shooting in 40k to be a little on the bland side and what you're proposing would just bring that blandness to the fun part of the game. There are a ton of really good decisions to be making during both phases of an assault that really separate the players that know what they're doing from the ones that do not. Target priority and activations are a lot more interesting when mistakes or bad dice rolls actually open your important models up to immediate retribution. The decision to pile-in or consolidate into an unengaged enemy unit is potentially incredibly powerful but, depending on what you're facing, also invites a ton of risk as a potentially badass unit gets to hit you twice for free before you can respond. The list goes on but what it comes down to is that there is a ton of depth that allows an experienced player to make the most of their models but at the same time if you don't really care about assault you can basically just slam your unit into your opponent's and it will work. Having a crunchier phase of the game available for those that want it is not a bad thing. Maneck posted:Kills Primarchs and Knights solo, in a single round. Costs 129 points. As Corrode said it requires an enormous investment to do so and can it can only be done once because it requires the model die to get the third round of attacks. It can be easily defended against if the opposing player is paying any sort of attention to screening and don't forget it's a single fairly fragile model trying to pull this off. It's also pretty much the the only tool Blood Angels have against these huge centerpiece models without taking allies. So, you know, before claiming something is broken it might be worth making sure you know what you're talking about. Pendent fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Jun 19, 2018 |
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Jun 19, 2018 16:23
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TheChirurgeon posted:Cultists are assault units, dingus. They sure as gently caress aren't going to shoot things with their knives and clubs They get taken with autoguns and have Prescience + VOTLW + Endless Cacophony dropped on them, they're a shooting unit. dexefiend posted:Playing Tau in 3rd edition: Good. Death to Tau.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:25
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It is if it bogs down play while your opponent spends all this time precisely placing miniatures in a way that most other phases have abstracted away.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:25
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:It is if it bogs down play while your opponent spends all this time precisely placing miniatures in a way that most other phases have abstracted away. People playing like this are just bad and they would be equally frustrating umming and ahhing over psychic or whatever if they played something else. The correct choice for assaulting is almost always immediately obvious and in any case if you're planning to exploit it to its maximum you should already know where your dudes are going long before you're at the point of having to do it. In general, you have like 20 minutes where your opponent is doing most of the moving and rolling dice, it always amazes me when people get to their turn and start thinking about what to do.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:27
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I would like some sort of change like if a unit falls back from combat, the other unit gets its own fall back move as well. Make it a little more risk/reward, you get out of combat but they might run further forward or slip back into cover.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:28
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Pendent posted:Death Company are more fragile and a little more generalist but if you hit the right targets with the right loadouts will put out damage like you wouldn't believe. You really want jump packs on them for a variety of reasons and modeling them with bolters is fine- just say that they also have chainswords and they'll be one of your premier chaff-clearing units. I agree with all of this, but just wanted to chime in to say that if you want them to be holding both, look for the BA tactical squad bolters on a bits site, they stop at the wrist rather than being a whole arm like the default DC ones so you can easily stick them on the non-held across the torso arm of your choice, and they have all the same ornate blood droplet, tassle, etc design as the stock ones. You'll also want a Lemartes to go with them, as he grants them a reroll on their charge. If you want to run a BA specific dreadnought, your best options are probably either the Librarian Dread with the psychic power that lets him fly, or a DC Dread in a drop pod with a magna grapple which gives you +2 on your charge if it's against a vehicle. Note that both options are both extremely Cool and Bad. If you just want a dread in general, Contemptors do pretty well.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:34
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Dreadnought Librarian? That's awesome and dumb as hell at the same drat time. I assume it dies to a lascannon very quickly regardless of what you do though.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:46
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Zodiac5000 posted:Dreadnought Librarian? That's awesome and dumb as hell at the same drat time. I assume it dies to a lascannon very quickly regardless of what you do though. It does not because it is a character with less than 10 wounds and as such can only be targeted if it's the closest model to the firing model.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:48
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SRM posted:These are the changes I'd like to see. I like that you can fall back from assault, after multiple editions of my jabronis just sitting in combat with a Dreadnought they couldn't hurt, waiting to die. I would like it if there was a little more danger from falling back, but not being able to shoot or charge is a pretty good detractor. I agree, but the shenanigans with falling back can be irritating. I played against a Nids player that i charged into with some guys, they "fell back" out of combat and closer to another of my units, then charged that other unit due to being able to fall back and still charge. Falling back should come with the caveat that you must move away from enemy units, not closer to them.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:50
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Zuul the Cat posted:I agree, but the shenanigans with falling back can be irritating. I played against a Nids player that i charged into with some guys, they "fell back" out of combat and closer to another of my units, then charged that other unit due to being able to fall back and still charge. Considering that’s kind of the Nids’ thing, they’d probably get the ability to do it just the same, at least while in Synapse.
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Jun 19, 2018 16:52
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Corrode posted:People playing like this are just bad and they would be equally frustrating umming and ahhing over psychic or whatever if they played something else. The correct choice for assaulting is almost always immediately obvious and in any case if you're planning to exploit it to its maximum you should already know where your dudes are going long before you're at the point of having to do it. Sure, there's optimal play, but you're wrong about knowing where you dudes are going when the charge roll is random. You can have a general idea but this is all about precision placement. Abstract that out so you can't trap models and things get faster with minimal downside. Maybe find a balance. Keep positioning for attacks, but add random fall back moves that can't be stopped by adjacent models. Now the decision process focuses on positioning with respect to casualties, and Final Strikes would allow you to remove stragglers and increase your chances of escape.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:08
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Pendent posted:It does not because it is a character with less than 10 wounds and as such can only be targeted if it's the closest model to the firing model. There are characters with more than 10 wounds? Yeesh, 40k is different than I remember. So is that the replacement for 'look out, sir!' rolls and such? you just can't shoot characters if they aren't the closest model to the firing unit?
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Jun 19, 2018 17:10
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Zodiac5000 posted:There are characters with more than 10 wounds? Yeesh, 40k is different than I remember. So is that the replacement for 'look out, sir!' rolls and such? you just can't shoot characters if they aren't the closest model to the firing unit? Some weapons and abilities allow you to, but generally yeah Characters with <10 wounds cannot be targeted by shooting. You can charge them and chop them to pieces though.  8th Edition radically changed the stat line. Models have way more wounds because weapons of consequence do way more damage. That said, the ability to cause wounds with low-Strength weapons increased dramatically, so bolters and such are more useful against T6+ models.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:16
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Zodiac5000 posted:There are characters with more than 10 wounds? Yeesh, 40k is different than I remember. So is that the replacement for 'look out, sir!' rolls and such? you just can't shoot characters if they aren't the closest model to the firing unit? Mortarion and Magnus are both in the 20ish range for instance so they can be targeted without restriction. The new system works fairly well for the most part but generally the consensus is that it can be abused a bit too much.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:17
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Pendent posted:Mortarion and Magnus are both in the 20ish range for instance so they can be targeted without restriction. The new system works fairly well for the most part but generally the consensus is that it can be abused a bit too much. Hey, at least you can’t hide characters behind characters anymore! Another massive change in 8th Edition is GW vaguely gives a poo poo and semi-regularly FAQs things and seems to value the consensus of the players when it comes to rules updates.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:20
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With all this BA talk, it seems like a good time to ask for some advice on how I should fill out my battalion. I've never played 40k before and have mostly been buying models that look cool, but I want to be building in a direction that makes a functional army with some good synergies. Here's what I have locked and loaded so far: HQ: 1: Slamguinius (129 pts) 2: ??? Troops: 1: Intercessor Squad w Sergeant, bolt rifles (90 pts) 2: Intercessor Squad w Sergeant, bolt rifles (90 pts) 3: ??? Elites: 1: 5-man DC Squad w Jump Packs - 4x bolter and chainsword, 1x Thunder hammer (116 pts) 2: 4x Sanguinary Guard - Death masks, Angelus boltgun and Encarmine Sword Here's the other models I have, but haven't figured out if/how they fit into the battalion or how to kit them out: 1x Blood Angels Dread - unbuiilt so can kit out as Furioso/DC/Lib 1x Sanguinary Guard model - can go into Sanguinary Guard squad or get kitted out as an Ancient 1x Primaris Captain w Power sword and boltstorm gauntlet 2x Primaris Lieutenants - 1 w power sword and bolt pistol, the other auto bolt rifle and bolt pistol 1x Primaris Ancient w bolt rifle and pistol 1x 3-man Inceptor Squad w assault bolters 1x 5-man Hellblaster Squad w plasma incinerators and bolt pistols So obviously I can paint up all the primaris and just jam them into the army for now, but I'm more looking for a road map of what I should look to add to make an army that is fun and competitive. Currently thinking about going Lib Dread as my second HQ, but also keeping my eyes out for a cheap Mephiston and/or Lemartes on ebay. For my third troop choice should I grab some scouts with sniper rifles? Also thinking I should get one more Sanguinary Guard squad and 2 more DC, but wondering if bolters and chainswords/angelus and swords is best or if I should mix in some other stuff. Is it worth it to magnetize these guys at all? Do I need transport...razorbacks? Basically I have all this poo poo and no idea how to use it...help me get a little more organized and purposeful with future purchases.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:22
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Took me a bit longer than expected, but finally all my Dark Imperium Intercessors (plus a bonus Adepticon Sergeant!) are done. Now to my Hellblasters.   
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Jun 19, 2018 17:27
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Mikey Purp posted:With all this BA talk, it seems like a good time to ask for some advice on how I should fill out my battalion. I've never played 40k before and have mostly been buying models that look cool, but I want to be building in a direction that makes a functional army with some good synergies. Here's what I have locked and loaded so far: I'd say you're on the right track. Definitely go with the Librarian Dread since that's actually one of the hidden gems in our codex, if just a bit more expensive than I'd like. You're going to have a ton of trouble getting value out of just 4 Sanguinary Guard though- with them you generally need to go big and buff them up with Unleash Range/The Sanguinor. A second box will get you where you need to go. If you can get your hands on Mephiston though definitely pick him up since he's an utter beast and Lemartes is extremely strong (almost a must take) if you want to run Death Company. The Primaris Ancient is another gem because the relic banner "Standard of Sacrifice" is so good buffing Primaris models it's a little stupid. I also love Inceptors although they're a bit harder to use post FAQ. Basically everything you got from what looks to be the Dark Imperium box is at least pretty good. Take the Librarian Dread for HQ number 2 and probably like a Primaris Lieutenant or Gravis Captain for HQ #3, then grab a box of Intercessors to fill out the troops. Hellblasters will be fine for anti-tank for smaller friendly games (make sure to take the Gravis Captain if you use them though) and just sort of experiment with the other stuff that you like. Most things in our Codex are at least usable so you're really going to have to experiment to see what works for your playstyle. Edit: Unrelated but check out this Intercessor Sergeant I made last night. I ran out of power swords so I had to rip one off of an old marine (RIP) but I am super excited with the result here. Going to be a ton of fun to paint him up. 
Pendent fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Jun 19, 2018 |
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Jun 19, 2018 17:32
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PierreTheMime posted:Hey, at least you can’t hide characters behind characters anymore! Another massive change in 8th Edition is GW vaguely gives a poo poo and semi-regularly FAQs things and seems to value the consensus of the players when it comes to rules updates. I feel like they just need to give units a size and give characters rules about what size of unit they can hide behind. The problems mostly come from mid sized stuff like Tau Commanders and Jetbike Shield-Captains that are legitimate combat units that are also fast and can hide behind everything. If Commanders could hide behind battlesuits and Jetbike Shield-Captains could hide behind tanks, dreadnaughts and other jetbikes I think they'd be a lot easier to balance.
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Jun 19, 2018 17:43
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Pendent posted:As Corrode said it requires an enormous investment to do so and can it can only be done once because it requires the model die to get the third round of attacks. It can be easily defended against if the opposing player is paying any sort of attention to screening and don't forget it's a single fairly fragile model trying to pull this off. It's also pretty much the the only tool Blood Angels have against these huge centerpiece models without taking allies. So, you know, before claiming something is broken it might be worth making sure you know what you're talking about. Be fair. I didn't claim anything. Those are your words, plus the points cost (and a skeptical emoji). FWIW, I agree with you that Slamguinius may not broken as part of an all Blood Angels army. And also your point that Blood Angels might otherwise need allies to be effective. Slamguinius doesn't have to be in an all BA army. Three Blood Angels Captains flying around powered by Imperial Guard CP is a different story. The Blood Angels codex has to be balanced for both scenarios. That is a monumental task facing GW in the next balance pass. Maneck fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Jun 19, 2018 |
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Jun 19, 2018 17:50
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Corrode posted:I think this is the disconnect. People want assault units to be good, which means fighty elite units or things designed around killing stuff. They're mostly trash with exceptions for stuff like BA caps or Custodes which are fast/tough/cheap (pick all three). Assault is really useful because of its effect on shooting units, even if you don't do a single wound and just bumper car things around. Garbage like cultists clogging up a castle and stopping it shooting isn't exactly what players have in mind for their assault units. Assault units haven't been good as long as I've been playing this game except like GSC last edition, and that was more of a cool movement army. Assault stuff has been unkillable bricks of dogs or screemers to tie poo poo up and have killer characters inside of it protected by 40 woumds, or a D-weapon/stomp delivery mechanism, or little poo poo tie up units to stop shooting. Good Assault this edition is tie up blocks, some bad touch unit like Morty or a stomppy knight, units that trade like letters or GSC, or hammer Bros for elite units, and some characters who have a 40 wound screen. So it's about the same Only now the bad touch units dont sometimes get stuck in/get tied up by 5 tac Marines.
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Jun 19, 2018 18:00
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The past two Rumour Engines:  Looks like some kinda bike?
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Jun 19, 2018 18:01
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Milotic posted:It was easy in 7th to be beaten at list building time. At least everything can hurt everything else now, even if mathematically unlikely. True, late-7th was a shitshow with some of the game-breaking formations you could take. Early-7th, or restricted lists 7th with good objectives was a much more enjoyable time than probably any other version of 40k I've played. The thing that annoys me most about assault in 8th is how often you use it to cheese the rules. Oh, I didn't charge that unit so you don't get overwatch. I ended up in melee with them because I charged the adjacent unit then the models that I perfectly set up to be closer piled-in to the nearest enemy.
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Jun 19, 2018 18:05
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Technowolf posted:The past two Rumour Engines: New Deffkopta.
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Jun 19, 2018 18:07
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