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Morzhovyye posted:he joined the dsa while he was still an active officer in the army and he didn't leave until they kicked him out, despite being a self proclaimed "anti-imperialist". i am aware there are veterans in what one would call "actual socialist orgs", but the dsa is not one, and among veterans they are the exceptions to the rule. imo if you're gonna try to turn face after volunteering for that poo poo then you need to do way more than write a silly message in your hat, join the center-left wing of the democratic party, and do funny memes online while aping lefty weird twitter. repudiate the military, show that you are genuinely remorseful, and then show your work by doing actual anti-imperialist activism. i think that's the bare minimum, is that too much of a "purity test"? the fact that the social democrats like yourself who have made this thread their home have thrown this many tantrums in his defense only further proves my point. tl;dr
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Jun 21, 2018 04:52
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here's my hot take on american soldiers: they drat well knew what they were signing up for here's my hot take on american officers: lmao are you kidding me
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Jun 21, 2018 04:59
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If you want to punish him for having been in the army, refusing to join his org seems counter-productive cause that's more like a reward
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Jun 21, 2018 05:29
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Morzhovyye posted:marxist genius: every action that someone does has a reason, also if you disagree with me you're literally pyscho, you are a crazy person, you are an insane person, you are a psychopath, you are delusional, join the DSA But it's farcical to suggest that everyone joins the military because they want to commit war crimes. Your projecting that intent into them, because you personally believe there is no other legitimate reason to join the military, than commit war crimes. Since this leads you to not join, you conclude that anyone that does is malicious by nature. You are either unwilling or unable to entertain the awareness of others. Like I said - in contemporary America, the biggest reason people will sign up is for econonic mobility. That's it.
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Jun 21, 2018 05:33
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Combined with the fact that he's just a kid, and as someone likely to be a normie, isn't clued into standard anti-imperialist rhetoric (because anti-imperialism is a marginal political position, that the majority of the US don't even have a passing familiarity with), its absurd to obsess over it.
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Jun 21, 2018 05:35
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The Turner Thesis of the Frontier, but for US wars abroad S E T T L E R S
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Jun 21, 2018 05:36
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Morzhovyye posted:he joined the dsa while he was still an active officer in the army and he didn't leave until they kicked him out, despite being a self proclaimed "anti-imperialist". i am aware there are veterans in what one would call "actual socialist orgs", but the dsa is not one, and among veterans they are the exceptions to the rule. imo if you're gonna try to turn face after volunteering for that poo poo then you need to do way more than write a silly message in your hat, join the center-left wing of the democratic party, and do funny memes online while aping lefty weird twitter. repudiate the military, show that you are genuinely remorseful, and then show your work by doing actual anti-imperialist activism. i think that's the bare minimum, is that too much of a "purity test"? the fact that the social democrats like yourself who have made this thread their home have thrown this many tantrums in his defense only further proves my point. dont post like how you post any more thanks
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Jun 21, 2018 05:42
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Yandat posted:lol making GBS threads on a veteran who wants to do communism- you all are going to be theorizing about how to relate to bringing more people over to the revolution in 50 years when you are all eating bug paste in a dome. anyone who knows how to use a weapon or command people in combat needs to gtfo we are having the same argument over the labor theory of value that weve been having since the last time you could go outside without a full biohazard suit being an active Troop in the 21st century has a lot to do with the supply and support chains of the us military and a lot less to do with any skills that are transferable to manning the barricades in a people's revolution. i still think the guy went about getting discharged in the most tone-deaf and self-aggrandizing way possible but now that he's out, whatever
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Jun 21, 2018 06:04
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R. Guyovich posted:being an active Troop in the 21st century has a lot to do with the supply and support chains of the us military and a lot less to do with any skills that are transferable to manning the barricades in a people's revolution. But any given troop has at least passed basic training, which gives them a leg up on normies
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Jun 21, 2018 06:16
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gradenko_2000 posted:just lol if you don't "get" Pol Pot by now If Pol Pot was as cute as Rapone he'd have a lot more defenders itt
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Jun 21, 2018 07:44
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R. Guyovich posted:being an active Troop in the 21st century has a lot to do with the supply and support chains of the us military and a lot less to do with any skills that are transferable to manning the barricades in a people's revolution. i still think the guy went about getting discharged in the most tone-deaf and self-aggrandizing way possible but now that he's out, whatever
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Jun 21, 2018 09:54
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being a troop is sold to people as a good way to lift yourself out of poverty. i know in highschool i got endless calls from recruiters, as did every other kid in my class. and it often sounds like a loving good way to get out of your lovely conditions and get free college. most of the guys in my class who signed up (and there weren't many) came back a lot more anti-war than when they left
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Jun 21, 2018 11:10
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the truly revolutionary, not to mention rigteous and moral, thing that one ought to do when confronted with someone who publicly declares that they’ve gone through a lomg process of ideological growth and change of opinions due to the horrible and immoral things they signed up to in past for naive and laughable reasons, is to doubt if their telling the truth. alternatively, you should just laugh at these pawns of imperialism for thinking they can just chamge theyre minds and admit they’ve made mistakes. you dont get to do that, you must bee [i]pounished[i/] for your signs! and I want to be the one whipping you too! I
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Jun 21, 2018 11:28
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lollontee posted:the truly revolutionary, not to mention rigteous and moral, thing that one ought to do when confronted with someone who publicly declares that they’ve gone through a lomg process of ideological growth and change of opinions due to the horrible and immoral things they signed up to in past for naive and laughable reasons, is to doubt if their telling the truth. did jomny sun join the dsa and hijack your account
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Jun 21, 2018 11:36
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if kissinger with his final breaths renounced his imperialist ways and embraced the one true way of Posadism on his piss bed, would he be Saved
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Jun 21, 2018 11:46
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Morzhovyye posted:did jomny sun join the dsa and hijack your account what a weak burn whos johmny sun? e: oh its twitter. wow drat, i feel shaem know i shouldve nown a poster like that lollontee fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Jun 21, 2018 |
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Jun 21, 2018 11:47
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Rated PG-34 posted:if kissinger with his final breaths renounced his imperialist ways and embraced the one true way of Posadism on his piss bed, would he be Saved If you're a consequentialist ethicist then the answer is an absolute no.
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Jun 21, 2018 11:49
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waiting to hear how Thomas sankara was a reactionary because his dad was a cop and he fought a nationalist war as an officer in the army of a liberal state
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Jun 21, 2018 11:49
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apropos to nothing posted:waiting to hear how Thomas sankara was a reactionary because his dad was a cop and he fought a nationalist war as an officer in the army of a liberal state Communism is more than just a journey of self-discovery. Thomas Sankara did more to make up for his crimes than just quit the army and say other soldiers should quit too.
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Jun 21, 2018 11:51
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Communism is more than just a journey of self-discovery. Thomas Sankara did more to make up for his crimes than just quit the army and say other soldiers should quit too. no poo poo so maybe that should serve as a lesson. this dude is like 21 or something so maybe it's more useful to say oh nice going kid come be a socialist than decide that all that matters is the poo poo he did before he was 21 so he will die an imperialist monster when he's maybe 72 and spent 50+ years fighting imperialism and class society
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Jun 21, 2018 11:56
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communism isn't a story of personal redemption either, and engaging in the rhetoric of sinfulness is diametrically opposed to the rhetoric of class interest and struggle, which is about a rational calculus.
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Jun 21, 2018 11:57
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apropos to nothing posted:no poo poo so maybe that should serve as a lesson. this dude is like 21 or something so maybe it's more useful to say oh nice going kid come be a socialist than decide that all that matters is the poo poo he did before he was 21 so he will die an imperialist monster when he's maybe 72 and spent 50+ years fighting imperialism and class society I don't mean to come down on the side that Rapone is an unforgivable monster for committing the original sin of being a troop, it's just stupid to compare him to a figure like Sankara who leveraged his institutional power into realizing socialism. Now that he's been kicked out of the military, he's an inconsequential figure.
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Jun 21, 2018 12:00
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It's somewhat telling that losing your career by openly supporting communism and socialism, somehow isn't enough of a clear demonstration of intent. Instead, more self-flagellation is required, to appease some sentimentality. You're importing christian notions of sin & redemption into a worldview where it doesn't fit, but this import goes unnoticed and unremarked. Why is that?
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Jun 21, 2018 12:03
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rudatron posted:You're importing christian notions of sin & redemption I'm literally not doing that. lmao
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Jun 21, 2018 12:06
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what crimes did Sankara commit?
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Jun 21, 2018 12:09
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that's not what people here and elsewhere are saying they're saying cause he was an officer in the army he's an irredeemable troop who is a class traitor. the dude has for whatever reason thrown his life off course for at least on the surface, his belief in revolutionary politics. calling him out for how lovely he is at the moment he is actually trying to possibly find a way towards mass politics is the same as the people who yell and scream that te left needs guns at the high schoolers who got shot at back in April. perfectly fine if you disagree with them or the troop kid but at least try to build bridges and solidarity with people that could be allies in building mass movements instead of calling them all out and publicly making GBS threads on them
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Jun 21, 2018 12:11
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Morzhovyye posted:did jomny sun join the dsa and hijack your account You are a Muppet baby. Get outta here with this no true Scotsman bullshit. rudatron posted:communism isn't a story of personal redemption either, and engaging in the rhetoric of sinfulness is diametrically opposed to the rhetoric of class interest and struggle, which is about a rational calculus. Ding ding ding ding. All of your posts have been on point. Though I would be careful I don't think his posts come from a place of assigning sin, but more from a place of wanting to feel superior. Because he's a Muppet baby.
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Jun 21, 2018 12:13
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apropos to nothing posted:that's not what people here and elsewhere are saying they're saying cause he was an officer in the army he's an irredeemable troop who is a class traitor. the dude has for whatever reason thrown his life off course for at least on the surface, his belief in revolutionary politics. calling him out for how lovely he is at the moment he is actually trying to possibly find a way towards mass politics is the same as the people who yell and scream that te left needs guns at the high schoolers who got shot at back in April. perfectly fine if you disagree with them or the troop kid but at least try to build bridges and solidarity with people that could be allies in building mass movements instead of calling them all out and publicly making GBS threads on them The people we're talking about are also inconsequential.
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Jun 21, 2018 12:14
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basically a bunch of Internet leftists are in a constant contest to not be out-radicaled by other lefties. revolutionaries orient towards the mass of working people and seek to win them over and organize them into a force capable of ending class society. even if you disagree with the dude or what he did if someone can't find ways to connect what has happened to him with mass consciousness and propagandize and reach people then I'd question their ability to be anything but a dead weight to revolutionary organizing
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Jun 21, 2018 12:17
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the people complaining about that kid are the same people that show up to a rally wearing a soviet flag around ther neck and a ushanka. they don't know poo poo about unions or how to run a meeting or organize a rally like te one they're at but they'll happily poo poo talk every party org or individual who does know and do that poo poo for not being radical enough. they're more interested in larping a revolution than actually working to realize one
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Jun 21, 2018 12:26
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I feel like the root cause is the influence of ideas about identity, onto political ideology. A critical part of identity formation is not just stating what you are, but what you are not. If you think of yourself as 'socialist', you attach any other part of your personal habits to that. So when you hit someone outside of that frame of reference, the immediate reaction is rejection. The goal isn't just focusing on the right class, or having the right intent. But gatekeeping people who fits the right cultural milieu - people like you. If they don't fit, the goal then is to find an excuse as to why can't be sincere, or they're not radical enough - because they're not 'like you' So to people for whom activism is a social club, and in particular, a social club for a particular kind of person, that's critically important. For actually changing society, it's toxic, because politics is a numbers game.
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Jun 21, 2018 12:36
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Conversely, the tendency for separatism, or as you point out, ever more performative displays of pseudo-radicalism, is precisely to 'filter out' anyone not-like-you, so that your social club can better resemble your own personality or personal beliefs. Alienation is the goal.
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Jun 21, 2018 12:40
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everyone is performative on the internet but there are varying levels of being unable to get over yourself. at some point you get trapped and the methane from your rear end in a top hat starts to fill your environs faster than oxygen can enter and then you end up being unable to relate to anyone without the exact same ideology (and personality, because the expectation of some cultural monolith where everyone has to be consistent and like eachother is rampant on the left). but to be serious for a moment, everyone who disagrees with me is working with the lizard people to undermine solidarity among very different people who have the same enemies (the lizard people)
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Jun 21, 2018 15:30
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I'm literally not doing that. lmao Av/post combo
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Jun 21, 2018 15:45
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Morzhovyye posted:he joined the dsa while he was still an active officer in the army and he didn't leave until they kicked him out, despite being a self proclaimed "anti-imperialist". i am aware there are veterans in what one would call "actual socialist orgs", but the dsa is not one, and among veterans they are the exceptions to the rule. imo if you're gonna try to turn face after volunteering for that poo poo then you need to do way more than write a silly message in your hat, join the center-left wing of the democratic party, and do funny memes online while aping lefty weird twitter. repudiate the military, show that you are genuinely remorseful, and then show your work by doing actual anti-imperialist activism. i think that's the bare minimum, is that too much of a "purity test"? the fact that the social democrats like yourself who have made this thread their home have thrown this many tantrums in his defense only further proves my point. there's plenty of veterans in the dsa. there's even a veteran's caucus, although i and all the other veterans i know of ignore it. although maybe you're trying to say its Not Real Socialism? you're probably right, but who, exactly, is Real Socialism then. PSL?
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Jun 21, 2018 15:54
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This originated as the PSL thread, many many moons ago.
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Jun 21, 2018 16:04
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Morzhovyye posted:join the dsa Morzhovyye posted:joined the dsa Morzhovyye posted:*starts stomping even harder, so hard that their DSA card falls out of their pocket* Morzhovyye posted:join the DSA okay dude!! i'l join the freaking dsa!!
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Jun 21, 2018 16:47
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every morning Morzhovyye wakes up and open palm slaps a magazine on the table. its jacobin and right then and there he starts doing the moves alongside his favorite character, michael harrington
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Jun 21, 2018 16:55
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not buying fair trade coffee is endorsing imperialism
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Jun 21, 2018 16:58
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:every morning Morzhovyye wakes up and open palm slaps a magazine on the table. its jacobin and right then and there he starts doing the moves alongside his favorite character, michael harrington
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Jun 21, 2018 16:59
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