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Tarezax posted:yeah you can only do the first superboss fight as 9S because you need to be able to hack the chest. You can still powerlevel off the amusement park bunny, but you have to spend the time whacking him to get him to wake up before you can hack him. For anyone that’s trying to level, I got a really good bit of advice for this from the LP: Equip the Blade pod program and just stand next to it while browsing SA or some poo poo on your phone, that’s basically the fastest way to wake it at low levels.
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Jun 22, 2018 15:17
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I still have a lot of questions that I don't really feel were answered by the time I got all the "real" endings, plus some new ones that got introduced. Spoilering all of them: So the humans were dead and the aliens were dead when the bulk of the fighting happened. I get that androids were created to give machines something to perpetually fight against. Why was YorHa necessary again? So 2B was an executioner assigned to 9S. Was this her primary function? Why let 9S lose if he just has to be killed again and again? What purpose is his obtaining classified information only to be killed serving? How many times has he been killed by 2B? Why did A2 kill the forest king? For fun? What is the Pods' objective at the end? What are Pods? Do I have it right that the ultimate goal of the machines is to blast their data into space so they can start over from scratch elsewhere without making the same mistakes and emulating humans over and over again?
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Jun 22, 2018 15:43
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The first two questions are kinda answered in the concert that the voice actors for 2B and 9S did a reading of a translation of it. https://youtu.be/yF0y083mMH Long and short of it: Question 1: the original Android 9S was based on went cuckoopants after finding out that Humanity was dead Question 2: Yes, he was the best information gatherer because of his natural curiosity, but said curiosity led him to the bad stuff so he's a double edged sword. A lot. Question 3: Yes. Question 4: Machines made to fulfill YoRHA's objective. Question 5: Yes.
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Jun 22, 2018 16:00
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Deified Data posted:So the humans were dead and the aliens were dead when the bulk of the fighting happened. I get that androids were created to give machines something to perpetually fight against. Why was YorHa necessary again? They were pure propaganda. They were supposed to spread the good news about humanity's 'survival', then kill machines and look good doing it so everyone believes the survuvivors are still in the fight. Then, when the message is clear, their servers have a vital flaw to allow the machines to wipe them out. No one but the pods wouod know the truth. Deified Data posted:Do I have it right that the ultimate goal of the machines is to blast their data into space so they can start over from scratch elsewhere without making the same mistakes and emulating humans over and over again? Pretty much - I figure the red girls and their chosen buddies would survive as godlike machine minds. Regular machines like Pascal are just cannon fodder failing over and over to bring about their masters' enlightenment.
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Jun 22, 2018 16:05
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So the general gist is Aliens arrive with machines, humans are dead -> machines have the one directive to defeat the enemy and fall on their creators in the absence of any other threat -> machines manufacture threat via androids to maintain their singular purpose -> at this point they probably begin to develop sentience and the point of the war with the androids shifts from "just cuz" to collecting information and combat data (or did this step happen before the previous one and they were always sentient on some level?) -> the core sentience of the machine's network either goes rogue or collects all the info it needs to blast off into space forever? Still, I guess my confusion is if everything is orchestrated by the network, what was the point of making an android like 9S smart enough to unravel everything and potentially give the game away? Was that unforeseen?
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Jun 22, 2018 16:36
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Deified Data posted:So the general gist is Aliens arrive with machines, humans are dead -> machines have the one directive to defeat the enemy and fall on their creators in the absence of any other threat -> machines manufacture threat via androids to maintain their singular purpose -> at this point they probably begin to develop sentience and the point of the war with the androids shifts from "just cuz" to collecting information and combat data (or did this step happen before the previous one and they were always sentient on some level?) -> the core sentience of the machine's network either goes rogue or collects all the info it needs to blast off into space forever? You are mistaken in one crucial detail: Androids are not made by machines. They are the remnants of the human civilization and oppose machines that they see as a threat to humans and themselves. Yorha is one big conspiracy orchestrated by androids themselves. Scanners like 9S are just really good at their job (which is why they are always accompanied by their handlers who will memory wipe them if necessary) WaltherFeng fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jun 22, 2018 |
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Jun 22, 2018 16:46
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Deified Data posted:Still, I guess my confusion is if everything is orchestrated by the network, what was the point of making an android like 9S smart enough to unravel everything and potentially give the game away? Was that unforeseen? The hole here is that the captain knows that machines weren't ever meant to be defeated in the first place so what's the point of smart scanners if you don't ever want to win? Better for them all to be a little dumber. It doesn't really matter ofc the story still works emotionally. One take that works is that the captain wanted to advance machine defeat because she knew that once the androids started winning too much she'd get killed off and knowing that humanity is dead she wanted out of living. So her efforts to make androids stronger were an attempt to hasten her own demise. She does seem a little calm/passive when poo poo goes down in route C. No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Jun 22, 2018 |
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Jun 22, 2018 17:08
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Who's the captain? Do you mean the commander? Iirc she doesn't know about YorHa's true purpose, there was a thing where the back door was a secret above even Command
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Jun 22, 2018 17:10
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2house2fly posted:Who's the captain? Do you mean the commander? Iirc she doesn't know about YorHa's true purpose, there was a thing where the back door was a secret above even Command
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Jun 22, 2018 17:13
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I just finished the game so I remember this one: According to the files the commander is told that the human colony on the moon is fake, but nobody within the Yorha project knows that they are meant to fail and be destroyed. Throughout the game 9S consistently solves problems that other androids wouldn't be able to. For example, during the kaijyuu fight he deserts his post as part of his plan to defeat it - personality types who always follow the rules or who are scared of the consequences of breaking them wouldn't have done that. He's an invaluable asset, and that's why they came up with such an elaborate setup to allow them to use him. My interpretation of a "normal" 2B/9S relationship would be that he grows to trust her, so he tells her as soon as he finds out about the human council. 2B then finds an opportunity to take him by surprise and kill him. Having a lesser secret that some other members of Yorha knows (like presumably 2B does because 9S keeps telling her) helps make sure 9S is stopped before he can uncover the much more damaging truth about the true nature of Yorha.
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Jun 22, 2018 17:45
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WaltherFeng posted:You are mistaken in one crucial detail: That is indeed very crucial. If this is the case why are black boxes made of machine parts? If YorHa aren't made by machines what is their motivation for waging an eternal war against the machines? What is the YorHa endgame?
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Jun 22, 2018 18:01
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The mysterious figures behind YorHa made the YorHa androids out of machine parts because they figured being destined for destruction to protect the lie of the humans would be too cruel to do to "real" androids. As far as the YorHa troops are concerned the endgame is to defeat the machines, and as far as the Commander is concerned the goal is to spur on the rest of the androids to fight by convincing them humans have survived
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Jun 22, 2018 18:08
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I just finished the game so I remember this one: Imagine 2B knowing that her existence is a sham, but not having the luxury of coping like 9S (albeit he coped by going insane) because she would lose the one good thing in her life. At the same time, she must hurt that one good thing in order to keep it. What kind of mental strength does one need to have to stay sane in such a situation? It's strange at first that 2B's personality is so numb and dull in Route A but it makes perfect sense. She's had her existential crisis and the only thing she can do is just not think about it. There are some complaints about 2B being an uninteresting character but to me her story is just as compelling as 9S's.
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Jun 22, 2018 20:41
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I like 2B, I thought she got a lot of good indirect characterisation in side missions and stuff like the 6O dialogue.
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Jun 22, 2018 22:12
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The problem with 2B's character is you only realize what was her deal in the very last dialogue of the game. It makes you completely reevaluate everything that happened in the game, but it's kinda late.
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Jun 23, 2018 00:05
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Samuringa posted:The problem with 2B's character is you only realize what was her deal in the very last dialogue of the game. It makes you completely reevaluate everything that happened in the game, but it's kinda late. I agree. I'm going to show Automata to my friends eventually, and I plan on spoiling that bit after Ending A. I think it'll make the repeat sections more interesting, since they'll be able to actively see 2B's actions in a new light instead of just thinking back on it.
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Jun 23, 2018 02:11
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But that's the point. The "reevaluation" is one of the game's major emotional climaxes. I don't think it came too late. Your conception of the story needs to be built up before it can be broken down. Route A builds, route B reinforces, and route C breaks it down. Also, did anyone immediately stop thinking about the story after finishing ending E? For me, the game being over didn't mean I was done with it. There's a lot of reflect over, including the reveal.
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Jun 23, 2018 03:57
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There's still plenty to do via chapter select as well, offering any amount of time for reevaluation. Then again, anything to make route B a little more interesting...
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Jun 23, 2018 04:14
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Hikaki posted:But that's the point. The "reevaluation" is one of the game's major emotional climaxes. I don't think it came too late. Your conception of the story needs to be built up before it can be broken down. Route A builds, route B reinforces, and route C breaks it down. Also, did anyone immediately stop thinking about the story after finishing ending E? For me, the game being over didn't mean I was done with it. There's a lot of reflect over, including the reveal. I just thought it could be delivered better. As it is, it's almost a throwaway line.
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Jun 23, 2018 04:29
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2house2fly posted:Then again, anything to make route B a little more interesting... Route B was definitely the best route, I mean it's in the main character's name: the whole beginning game is a lead up to B. But yeah it could have used more 9S, I agree.
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Jun 23, 2018 04:31
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Deified Data posted:That is indeed very crucial. If this is the case why are black boxes made of machine parts? If YorHa aren't made by machines what is their motivation for waging an eternal war against the machines? What is the YorHa endgame? Because that's what makes it okay to kill all the YoRHa in the end: they're not real androids. They're just dumb machines, with no sentience, like the enemy. The war against the machines gives the androids something to live for. Also, y'know, so they don't all get killed by the machines and their logic virus. The YoRHa endgame is to have them all die tragically to a treacherous machine attack, in order to keep the lie of the moon humans alive forever. Also, to collect combat data, because hey, why not. The mysterious android cabal behind YoRHa doesn't want the war to go on forever, they want to win it, and thought this was necessary to do so (or at least one crazy, now-deceased member of said cabal did).
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Jun 23, 2018 04:37
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Begemot posted:Because that's what makes it okay to kill all the YoRHa in the end: they're not real androids. They're just dumb machines, with no sentience, like the enemy. I thought that the cabal planned for YoRHa to eventually die it was just that when 9S discovered all the bullshit that YoRHa was being filled up with broke him big time and so he did all he could to break it before being taken down.
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Jun 23, 2018 04:54
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Deified Data posted:I still have a lot of questions that I don't really feel were answered by the time I got all the "real" endings, plus some new ones that got introduced. Spoilering all of them: *The Evil Salt is from when a human and a dragon, while fighting a weird pregnant lady evil god thing in a different dimension, somehow sent it to Tokyo and then had a rhythm game battle against it, defeating it and making it fall apart into Evil Salt. They were then shot down by a fighter jet and impaled on Tokyo Tower.
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Jun 23, 2018 09:51
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Zereth posted:Okay, this is gonna take some explaining, and spoilers for Nier 1. And Drakengard. Androids were created to run Project Gestalt while cleaning up the Evil Salt* that was turning humans into red-eyed monsters, or pillars of salt, until Project Gestalt hit on the tactic of removing human souls from their body, and then using the genetic information from the bodies to create mindless clones, Replicants, to help with the cleanup of the Evil Salt. However, the replicants started developing minds and personalities and so forth anyway, and the androids weren't quite sure what to do about this, as all their superiors had their souls removed and so forth. Then things start going bad and the souls start going feral and this causes their corresponding Replicant to get a nasty wasting disease. The the events of Nier 1 happened, and the main character destroys the thing keeping the system from completely decaying and all the human souls and Replicants are thousands of years dead by the time the aliens show up. YorHa is just the next generation prototype combat androids, except some rear end in a top hat is also using it as a smokescreen for the "Council of Humanity" to convince the general android population that there are still surviving humans, so the androids, who are all programmed with "PROTECT HUMANS" as a major goal, think there's actually humans to protect. I don't think I'll ever get tired of the insane backstory for this series, especially the drat ridiculous origin point.
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Jun 23, 2018 13:29
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Mega64 posted:I don't think I'll ever get tired of the insane backstory for this series, especially the drat ridiculous origin point. Oh, and I almost forgot: Some point in here, before Nier 1 starts, Earth stops rotating, so it's always day, or night, or twilight or whatever depending on where on the planet you are, but this doesn't result in one side of the planet being super hot and the other cold. The sun also disappears out of the sky, but this does not affect lighting conditions, somehow. I don't know if these were separate events or they happened at the same time, we simply don't learn much at all about them other than that they happened.
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Jun 23, 2018 14:16
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Noper Q posted:I agree. I'm going to show Automata to my friends eventually, and I plan on spoiling that bit after Ending A. I think it'll make the repeat sections more interesting, since they'll be able to actively see 2B's actions in a new light instead of just thinking back on it. Don't. Let them experience the game as intended. If they don't end up appreciating what they did with 2B in the end, that's a perfectly valid outcome. The fact that a single bit right at the end of the game can make you re-evaluate her as an whole is great. Make 'em play in Japanese though, Buckland's 2B is rubbish. Kyle's 9S is good though, so it's kind of a shame you can't mix and match (not really)
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Jun 23, 2018 14:22
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It's really weird that the world stopped turning and a) nobody knows what caused it, b) it never really comes up
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Jun 23, 2018 14:25
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2house2fly posted:It's really weird that the world stopped turning and a) nobody knows what caused it, b) it never really comes up Yet another reason I love the series; in the grand scheme of things, the complete destabilization of Earth's orbit is just sort of a minor background thing compared to all the other stuff going on.
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Jun 23, 2018 14:26
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Play in English
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Jun 23, 2018 14:48
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Josuke Higashikata posted:Make 'em play in Japanese though, Buckland's 2B is rubbish. Kyle's 9S is good though, so it's kind of a shame you can't mix and match (not really) Nah
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Jun 23, 2018 16:32
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Arist posted:Play in English
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Jun 23, 2018 19:13
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Is it worth it to play the Drakengard games and Nier before playing Automata?
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Jun 23, 2018 19:24
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Beelerzebub posted:Is it worth it to play the Drakengard games and Nier before playing Automata? 1 and 2 are straight up terrible and 3 is a serviceable but still below average game. You're better off reading the LP of the first two, and maybe the third if you don't wanna sit through a mediocre hack and slash. They will tell you essentially nothing about Nier though. It adds some explanation for the backstory, but the themes of the two are entirely different from the Drakengard games.
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Jun 23, 2018 19:31
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Beelerzebub posted:Is it worth it to play the Drakengard games and Nier before playing Automata? I was constantly blown away playing Automata as my first game in the series. I recommend jumping straight in with Automata, and you can go back and play the other games later as they don't assume you have prior knowledge of the backstory. NieR 1 was still fun to play after Automata. Drakengard games probably worth LPing and don't seem worth playing yourself.
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Jun 23, 2018 19:46
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Zereth posted:Okay, this is gonna take some explaining, and spoilers for Nier 1. And Drakengard. Androids were created to run Project Gestalt while cleaning up the Evil Salt* that was turning humans into red-eyed monsters, or pillars of salt, until Project Gestalt hit on the tactic of removing human souls from their body, and then using the genetic information from the bodies to create mindless clones, Replicants, to help with the cleanup of the Evil Salt. However, the replicants started developing minds and personalities and so forth anyway, and the androids weren't quite sure what to do about this, as all their superiors had their souls removed and so forth. Then things start going bad and the souls start going feral and this causes their corresponding Replicant to get a nasty wasting disease. The the events of Nier 1 happened, and the main character destroys the thing keeping the system from completely decaying and all the human souls and Replicants are thousands of years dead by the time the aliens show up. YorHa is just the next generation prototype combat androids, except some rear end in a top hat is also using it as a smokescreen for the "Council of Humanity" to convince the general android population that there are still surviving humans, so the androids, who are all programmed with "PROTECT HUMANS" as a major goal, think there's actually humans to protect. Okay, this clears up a lot re: the origin and purpose of the androids. I got every ending to Nier 1 and was aware of this backstory but didn't really put 2 and 2 together and realize nothing really changed from the end of Nier 1 and these buildings have been lying empty for millenia
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Jun 23, 2018 20:01
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Beelerzebub posted:Is it worth it to play the Drakengard games and Nier before playing Automata? Never actually play Drakengard yourself, that game is very bad and has very little to do with Automata. The Dark Id has a good lp that's worth looking into - there are parts of it that are interesting when you aren't suffering through it yourself. It might be worth playing Nier first if you can, though Automata stands on its own fine. You'll just be missing out on some backstory, and there will be some references that'll go over your head.
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Jun 23, 2018 20:11
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A bunch of the heaviest hitting things in Automata rely on you knowing Gestalt/Replicant, so I'd massively recommend The Dark Id's LP of it at the very least if you're not able to play it. Also because NieR 1's just drat good and arguably better than Automata anyway. Not entirely as a ~game~ but it does do some things better than Automata on a gameplay level besides (Bosses mostly).
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Jun 23, 2018 20:27
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Crappy Jack posted:Yet another reason I love the series; in the grand scheme of things, the complete destabilization of Earth's orbit is just sort of a minor background thing compared to all the other stuff going on. Let's see what Wikipedia says about Earth's rotation: Wikipedia posted:Analysis of historical astronomical records shows a slowing trend of about 2.3 milliseconds [per day] per century since the 8th century BCE. First off, at the current rate of deceleration, after 10000 years the rate of rotation would be expected to remain almost the same, with days being about the same length as today, give or take a second. Wikipedia posted:This day length corresponds to the semidiurnal resonant period of the thermally-driven atmospheric tide; at this day length, the decelerative lunar torque could have been canceled by an accelerative torque from the atmospheric tide, resulting in no net torque and a constant rotational period. This stabilizing effect could have been broken by a sudden change in global temperature. From this, we have a couple ways earth's rotation could drastically slow: 1. Atmospheric tide could decrease greatly We can probably rule this out since the general weather patterns and wildlife appear mostly unchanged in the game. As Wikipedia says, it would be massive thermal changes that affect the atmospheric tide, and evidently that did not happen. 2. Lunar torque could increase greatly According to some equations on lunar tidal torque, the torque could increase if any of these happen: a. Distance between moon and earth decreases b. Radius of earth itself increases c. The mass of the moon increases As for A, there is some evidence that the moon is not where it's expected to be. In the Half-Wit Inventor sidequest, the rocket misses the moon and hits Mars instead. This indicates that the old data regarding the moon's celestial position may be wrong; and given that the inventor is not connected to the machine lifeforms' network, he must get his data from old human records. As for B, we can probably rule out changes in earth's radius, given that satellites, like the in-game map and the YoRHa outpost, still behave normally. As for C, we can't really say either way. We know there is some kind of special Server on the moon which would surely increase its mass, but we don't know the nature of this Server. And we don't know what else may be on the moon. Questions from the game because I don't remember: Does anyone ever talk about going to the dark side of Earth? Does anyone ever talk about seeing the moon first-hand?
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Jun 23, 2018 21:10
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I don’t think we should read much into the science of accidentally shooting a homemade rocket to mars and it gets there in like a day
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Jun 23, 2018 21:31
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Drakengard was purposely made to not be fun to play so just read TDI's LP. I wish I could play Nier 1, though.
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Jun 23, 2018 21:57
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