xtal posted:

✔ Due process
✔ Rule of law

tagesschau posted:

The complete list of ways in which mob rule is superior to due process and/or rule of law is below:

EvilJoven posted:

I hope all of you saying that people accused of crimes don't deserve due process

Chillyrabbit posted:

All those are true, especially the last one (people can be assholes because they are human). I just disagree that sexual assault/harassment crimes have to only be dealt with outside of the legal system. Either we have due process for everyone or you have mob justice which can be as easily perverted as an inept legal system.

Example:
I hate John because he got a promotion, just gin up a sexual assault case let the mob destroy him (without due process, evidence who needs evidence believe the victim) and waltz right up the ladder.

I understand its not likely, but it is a possibility if we just allow and facilitate people to work outside the legal system.

The current system may be failing or not working, but if it goes too far in the other direction (eliminate pesky due process and the rules around evidence) its just as bad. I'm skeptical that we need social media blitzes to publish far and wide accusations that are just that, accusations with no evidence backing them up. You can't force anyone to believe everything especially if there is no evidence.

Chillyrabbit posted:

Recently read about Steven Galloway at UBC (long read, but I thought it laid out all the pertinent points) and how he got railroaded. An important enough allegation to just destroy his career, but the initial crime was never found to have been committed or as far as I can tell investigated by police.


Admittedly bone headed move with his relationships with students since its an unbalanced teacher-student relationship, which was why he was terminated.

I strongly believe that you should always tell the police about possible crimes and not just go onto social media to destroy a person before due process. Patrick brown or Justin Trudeau, all crimes should be a legal police/court matter not a mob pushing for "justice". Otherwise we have horridly slid down a path of anarchy where a mob decides the rules and punishment for people and the Rule of Law is dead.

patonthebach posted:

It's the PM being accused of sexually assaulting someone. I'd say that deserves a proper investigation from police.

If we found a press clipping that the PM tries to rob a bank in 2002. But the teller doesn't want to talk about it , would we not still try to find out what really happened?

This isn't a story of him stealing a chocolate bar. Its touching someone sexually that's unwanted. It's a big loving deal. He's running the country.

DariusLikewise posted:

The bank analogy sucks because if there was a robbery there would be a pretty substantial record of a robbery taking place and a stack of files in a BC police station somewhere.

Jimbozig posted:

DON'T TRY TO gently caress YOUR STUDENTS.

Stickarts posted:

Jimbozig posted:

You want to know how to avoid sexual harassment and assault complaints from your students as a prof?

DON'T TRY TO gently caress YOUR STUDENTS.

If you gently caress your students and end up fired? Good. All your colleagues thought you were a sleazy piece of poo poo who gives us all a bad rep and we're not sad to see you go.

At literally any other business, if a manager carried on an illicit affair with a subordinate and then that subordinate spoke out and said that it wasn't always consensual, that loving manager should be loving fired. Don't sleep with your subordinates. Don't poo poo where you eat. gently caress literally anyone else in the world.

Due process? Yeah, you get due process if they try to charge you with something. Which nobody did. If this guy had gotten arrested and jailed based on rumours and whispers, I'd be on your side - you can't and shouldn't send someone to prison for what he did with the kind of evidence we have. But profs getting fired for sleeping with their students is something that needs to happen far more often. The entire loving reason why we get told not to sleep with our students is because we won't always know at what point the student starts to have reservations or doubts because they won't feel like they are in a position not to consent. And we do get told, we do get warned, and we do get trained, so it's not like this douchebag didn't know what he was doing. You can't act surprised "oh, she never told me when it got to the point where she was uncomfortable," because as a prof you have been taught that students in that kind of relationship won't always feel able to tell you honestly. He knew what he was doing, he knew it was wrong, he knew it could cost him his job, and he did it anyway. To have sympathy for him is foolish.

quote:

MC is five years Galloway’s senior, and had arrived at UBC with a master’s degree from another institution and two previous tenure-track positions at U.S. universities. (She continues to teach at one of these universities today.) She cannot credibly be cast as a starry-eyed ingénue beguiled by Galloway’s reputation. In fact, at the time of their affair, Galloway held no tenure, or any administrative role in the Creating Writing department, but rather was a mere sessional instructor working on a year-to-year contract.

quote:

She’d promised to bring forward 19 assault complainants against Galloway. Instead she brought forward herself and seven of her friends. And even in these cases, the complaints were mostly frivolous—the sort of stories one might see on RateMyProfessors.com. All of the allegations made by these eight “Ancillary Complainants” (as they became known) were eventually dismissed. More importantly, so was the central rape allegation made by MC.

quote:

The faculty association, it was revealed Friday, filed two grievances. In December, 2015, it argued that UBC had violated Mr. Galloway’s privacy rights, causing him irreparable damage to his reputation and financial loss.

Then in July, 2016, after Mr. Galloway was fired, the association argued there had been “substantial procedural violations” by UBC administration and that the university’s communications regarding the termination “had been misleading and had caused both serious reputational damage and ongoing personal suffering” to Mr. Galloway.

Baronjutter posted:

It's a pretty great society to live in if you like to rape people or kill people with your vehicle. The perfect crime would be a combo rape/negligent driving death. Statistically it wouldn't just have a 0% conviction rate it would have a negative conviction rate, where the victims would sometimes be found guilty of the crime instead of you.

Jimbozig posted:

You want to know how to avoid sexual harassment and assault complaints from your students as a prof?

DON'T TRY TO gently caress YOUR STUDENTS.

If you gently caress your students and end up fired? Good. All your colleagues thought you were a sleazy piece of poo poo who gives us all a bad rep and we're not sad to see you go.

At literally any other business, if a manager carried on an illicit affair with a subordinate and then that subordinate spoke out and said that it wasn't always consensual, that loving manager should be loving fired. Don't sleep with your subordinates. Don't poo poo where you eat. gently caress literally anyone else in the world.

Due process? Yeah, you get due process if they try to charge you with something. Which nobody did. If this guy had gotten arrested and jailed based on rumours and whispers, I'd be on your side - you can't and shouldn't send someone to prison for what he did with the kind of evidence we have. But profs getting fired for sleeping with their students is something that needs to happen far more often. The entire loving reason why we get told not to sleep with our students is because we won't always know at what point the student starts to have reservations or doubts because they won't feel like they are in a position not to consent. And we do get told, we do get warned, and we do get trained, so it's not like this douchebag didn't know what he was doing. You can't act surprised "oh, she never told me when it got to the point where she was uncomfortable," because as a prof you have been taught that students in that kind of relationship won't always feel able to tell you honestly. He knew what he was doing, he knew it was wrong, he knew it could cost him his job, and he did it anyway. To have sympathy for him is foolish.

Stickarts posted:

zapplez posted:

That is one immensely depressing chart.

PT6A posted:

Also robberies and burglaries go unreported all the time, for a variety of reasons.

James Baud posted:

On a somewhat related topic, there hasn't been a lot of talk about the last by-election loss and the NDP basically writing off their Quebec seats.

Stickarts posted:

Risky Bisquick posted:

Can you plot Trudeau beside Patrick Brown and Kent Hehr for me, having trouble visualizing where he lands on this chart

DariusLikewise posted:

The CRA is still unfunded and can't collect taxes, maybe they should talk to some of those call centers that ask for iTunes giftcards?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tax-debt-liberal-budget-collections-1.4715967

brucio posted:

Canada has no shortage of nuclear takes

https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1010909503561191424?s=19

Good one jon

quote:

The father of Quebec City mosque shooter Alexandre Bissonnette is accusing prosecutors of seeking a political judgment against his son.

Raymond Bissonnette told reporters today at the Quebec City courthouse the Crown has sought to demonize Alexandre and ignored his mental health problems.

Bissonnette, 28, pleaded guilty earlier this year to six charges of first-degree murder and six of attempted murder after he walked into a mosque in the provincial capital in January 2017 and opened fire.

The defence has argued the killer should be eligible for parole after 25 years in prison while the Crown wants Bissonnette to receive a 150-year sentence.

Raymond Bissonnette says his son is not a monster but the victim of relentless bullying and intimidation during his school years, factors he says could have played a role in the shooting.

flakeloaf posted:

Still not under any delusions that lifelong sentences have any deterrent effect whatsoever. Makes the TUFF ON CRIME set happy I guess.

THC posted:

i mean i don't care if he gets 150 years or 25. his gross dad would definitely still be reading the 'poor troubled white boy' script if the crown was only calling for 25 years. 100% guaranteed

Postess with the Mostest posted:

What would your dad do?

infernal machines posted:

Raise a son who didn't murder a bunch of people in a mosque? I mean, if we're doing hypotheticals.

Toalpaz posted:

Not saying the mosque shooter doesn't deserve to be punished, this is just a comment on long prison sentences and their over abundance in NA.

Postess with the Mostest posted:

Love it. How many years in jail do the parents deserve (in your opinion)? I wouldn't feel terrible throwing 10 out there.