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fool_of_sound posted:There seems to be a lot of goons who ostensibly like 4e, but then never run, play in, or promote crunchy games Going back to this not because I think it needs further calling out but because it got me thinking about what games I have found particularly interesting/enjoyable lately. Honestly, not a lot of crunchy RPGs have come out recently which I'm particularly interested in. There's LANCER, a tactical mech game that's inspired by Shadow of the Demon Lord and D&D 4E, and it's still in development (albeit playable). I've written about 60 pages of homebrew for it already which is something I've never done for any game ever, and I'm actually entertaining the idea about approaching the creators to publish an official supplement for the game once it's released and I have a finalized draft to work off of. Unity takes 4E-style power templating and class design and applies it to a range band based tactical combat system but it's still not fuckin in general print publication yet so it's really hard to say "hey go check out this neat game!" when nobody can actually do that. Fragged Empire and its various add-ons is neat though I haven't delved too deeply into it, but if I wanted to do some sci-fi gaming it would be a top contender. Then on the more "storygame" end of things there's Blades In the Dark which is still good, and The Spire which has an evocative setting and a fairly simple but workable unified resolution system that resembles FATE's in certain respects, namely that all forms of conflict are resolved similarly, though unlike FATE there are five distinct damage thresholds instead of one or two, representing everything from your physical health to the effectiveness of your cover identity as a member of a secret resistance group. The playbooks have a fun flavor to them, from drunken bar-brawling dockside knights to charnel priests with hyena pets to firebrand revolutionaries. Mechanically, The Spire seems like what it's lacking is big picture/company/city scale crunch to lend mechanical weight to your revolutionary efforts, particularly since character progress is gated at effecting change throughout the city, yet mechanically the change is only tracked in regards to your characters and it would be nice to see The City of Spire itself be a character. I'm quite pleased with Legacy 2E as far as PbtA games go, and I'm a little concerned that the Flying Circus KS hasn't posted an update for a couple of months.
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Jun 27, 2018 06:22
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Kai Tave posted:The 4E PbP I'm in has passed the seven year mark at this point and may finally be on its last legs which is kind of a bummer but oh well, it's been a heck of a ride. I like and would play 4E but at this point it does have a number of legacy flaws and I wish we had more honest-to-god 4E clones out there. LANCER has been my current passion but I've spent most of my time on the discord server for it because...I dunno why actually, I guess I could start a thread for it here but I am also admittedly very lazy. Still, it's got mechs, it's got tactical combat, each new iteration continues to be real good, and I'm stoked for it. Every once in a while I think about LANCER, and I'm really excited to give it a shot one of these days. I'm a little hesitant because it's still in development and some of the changes have been pretty drastic, but it looks really cool. I'd definitely appreciate a LANCER thread, if only to get more thoughts and trip reports from people who have actually played it.
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Jun 27, 2018 06:31
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Kai Tave posted:Exalted probably shines way more when everyone at the table is super fuckin into it. Just to draw this out, I had a Second Edition Exalted game (just Solars and one Lunar, so, none of the creepy grimdark nonsense, just Bronze Age mythic fantasy) that lasted years and played very well, because of enthusiasm. Do I think 2e was a good system? gently caress no. But all the players were at least interested in what they, personally, could do in it, so the complexity became a toolkit. Various other Exalted games I've run since were similar. But these aren't actually very crunch-enthusiastic players generally, the setting made understanding the crunch desirable. So I think that there's some other axes beyond just 'narrative vs. game' to this question. My players have always been way more willing to engage with mechanics that implement a setting they were interested in playing, which is why Mage the Awakening and Exalted have somehow become the core games of a very narrative-focused, not-crunch-loving group. It's honestly a little draining, even as the games are fantastic, because only one of my four regular players ever reads a drat rulebook themselves and retains any of it. I love them all but that's just baffling to me. Neopie posted:Also jesus christ Yawgmoth, I was going hey, man ,maybe I was kind of unfair to Yawgmoth the other day because I was in a bad mood but nope, nevermind. Agreed. King of Solomon posted:Every once in a while I think about LANCER, and I'm really excited to give it a shot one of these days. I'm a little hesitant because it's still in development and some of the changes have been pretty drastic, but it looks really cool. I'd definitely appreciate a LANCER thread, if only to get more thoughts and trip reports from people who have actually played it. Funnily enough, one of the LANCER authors is the Kill Six Billion Demons guy, whose first RPG foray was a PBTA Kill Six Billion Demons game, Broken World. I played a one-shot of a version of it, and it was fun enough, but it was a bit lacking. I'm glad to hear all this LANCER love, since it makes me consider going back and checking it out. Regardless of the outcome, the art will be killer. Ex3 is good though.
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Jun 27, 2018 06:53
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King of Solomon posted:Every once in a while I think about LANCER, and I'm really excited to give it a shot one of these days. I'm a little hesitant because it's still in development and some of the changes have been pretty drastic, but it looks really cool. I'd definitely appreciate a LANCER thread, if only to get more thoughts and trip reports from people who have actually played it. Maybe I'll start one when 1.7 comes out, which is promising a streamlined and better integrated pilot scale to go along with mech-scale play, a revamped action economy and some combat changes that are more reminiscent of 4E (with regards to OAs, threatening reach, etc) and breaking attacks into two separate sorts of actions, a quick snapfire that lets you attack with a single weapon but also then lets you do other stuff during your turn like deploying gear or tech stuff or a full-on alpha strike where you fire all your guns (one of the big points of feedback Tom got from 1.6 is that most of the time it felt "correct" to spend your turn always shooting everything instead of using deployable gear or various tech actions), changes to drones (which are now going to be weapons that take mounts and use Targeting vs. E-defense, partly as a way to move away from "end of round" interactions, partly as a way to separate drones from target locks as a hard necessity) and a bunch of other minor tweaks and changes. Tom also posted some new art in between working on K6BD. Some pilots, each representing one of the four big mech corps:  and the Harrison Armory SHERMAN, a mech that's 30% laser by volume. 
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Jun 27, 2018 06:54
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Wrestlepig posted:The best intro game I’ve seen is Call of Cthulhu. It’s simple to grasp the resolution, it doesn’t take long to set up a character, it’s good for one-shots, most of it can be understood without many gamey terms, players probably get the genre and there’s lots of modules and support. Also one of them told me that because she was gay she "wanted to roll a lot of dice and not worry about math" and was absolutely down with the d100 percentile system as a result. Vox Valentine fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Jun 27, 2018 |
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Jun 27, 2018 06:57
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:All of this is proceeding from the mistaken assumption that light games are a gateway into RPGs. Agreed, if we're talking D&D derived games for beginners, I'd say Basic Fantasy RPG is one of the better choices as it's not only a very solid game with a lot of support, it's fully free in PDF form, and the print books for it are dirt cheap
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Jun 27, 2018 08:25
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ProfessorCirno posted:I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this is how most new players are introduced to the game. It's definitely, and shittily and unfortunately, how a lot of people I know had their first game go. I've watched some piece of poo poo GM just smugly smile and go "well, we'll find out in the game" when being asked if certain advantages would be useful to a player who had never played a tabletop game before (surprise, it wasn't!). Way, way too much of this hobby believes in a gaming philosophy where the players make their character with next to no information to make it more "natural," only to "play through" the flaws they've accidentally put into their character. "It's fun to play a non-stereotypical character!" the DM tells the new player who's wondering if they should have high charisma as a sorcerer. This is also exacerbated by the enforced permanence of all these choices. If you have to make your character, but you can remake them as much as you want, then at least it's only impractical and tedious to be thrown into the deep end of the character creation process with zero information about what might be good and useful. If you have to make your character, and you're stuck with whatever you thought was going to be decent, which later turns out to not be, but also can't be taken back, you're just plain proper hosed (and the GM is a dick).
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Jun 27, 2018 08:40
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1st edition D&D is the best edition of D&D to get started with if you absolutely have to start someone on D&D.
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Jun 27, 2018 09:53
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So uh a lot of this advice and discussion doesn't seem really applicable to Thom and the Heads's situation of a complete novice GM with complete novice players who are willing to try whatever. If you're an absolutely new group you want clear, concise, and comprehensive rules. Part of the reason for D&D dominance is that it's got so many weird corner cases and obscure rules that you can be playing for years and still have to occasionally go "Uh let me look that up". So if someone already knows a D&D version and gets asked to play another game they're all "gently caress no, I'm still learning this one!". A clear and concise game avoids this problem because you can learn it, play it, decide what you like and dislike, then move on to another that might better suit your needs. Clear rules mean rules that are easy to understand and reference, but more importantly it means that rules must match the fluff, and have limited pitfalls to a brand new player. D&D and its derivatives have always been abysmal at this, filled with trap options and false choices and weird rules interactions. 5e is the new king of being bad at this but hardly alone its field. Comprehensive rules don't mean an entry for every eventuality, but rather a solid and reliable resolution system with clear guidelines on how to adjudicate on the fly. D20 is a bad system for this in general, and D&D outside of 4e is terrible for giving guidelines on appropriate DCs. 4e was also terrible at this because the guidelines were clear but mathematically hosed, and also still D20. Concise rules mean something that you can read through without devoting a college course of effort to. New players should be able to fully understand their character with an hour's prep at most. GMs should be able to read and understand the book in a day at most. I don't mean memorise it, but be able to grasp the concepts and set up the initial session without any major pitfalls. There's nothing stopping anyone writing a rules heavy system that meets all of the above, but if we're talking games that exist you're talking rules lite.
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Jun 27, 2018 10:11
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King of Solomon posted:Every once in a while I think about LANCER, and I'm really excited to give it a shot one of these days. I'm a little hesitant because it's still in development and some of the changes have been pretty drastic, but it looks really cool. I'd definitely appreciate a LANCER thread, if only to get more thoughts and trip reports from people who have actually played it. The formatting on the rulebook sucks because it's a beta doc, and sometimes the rules change drastically between releases (although I think they've said what we have in 1.6 is the final version of the core rules, and the only thing you can expect going forwards are changes to individual gear/mechs), but I've been running a campaign with it and it's real good. Also, the setting is surprisingly good. The pitch ("it's Battletech meets Titanfall") makes you think it's going to be another feudal/fascist space empire, but Union is a socialist paradise where the main way to make Union Navy decide to gently caress you up is if you have state-sponsored slavery or don't provide your citizens with non-means-tested, universally-available basic income.
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Jun 27, 2018 10:14
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Lemon-Lime posted:(although I think they've said what we have in 1.6 is the final version of the core rules, and the only thing you can expect going forwards are changes to individual gear/mechs) Tom may have stated this at some point but if he did he drastically underestimated his urge to tinker  1.7 is going to be not as drastic an overhaul as 1.5 to 1.6 was but it's going to involve more than just gear changes, but some substantial changes to things like pilot-side play, actions in combat, the function of drones, removing additional mounts as a level-up bonus and replacing it with a series of differing benefits you can choose which will buff your mech in different ways beyond slapping more guns on it, etc.e; this is one of the reasons I haven't started a thread for LANCER yet, because I want to wait for the next revision rather than "hey here's this neat game, whoops now chunks of it are different." Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Jun 27, 2018 |
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Jun 27, 2018 10:22
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I think introducing people to a first-time RPG depends as much on your prospective players as anything. Crunchier systems shouldn't be too much of a problem with players who are at all familiar with video games, for the most part, and if all else fails you can guide them through creation and/or give them pregens, maybe customised to what they want. D&D 4e can very much appeal to people who like the tactical elements of games, though be prepared for combat to get slow as people go over their options and make plans. (hopefully not having to be reminded of all their options too much. There's a reason for things like power cards) People already familiar with roleplaying but lacking the patience for crunchier systems (even if they do like video games, they may not like having to do maths themselves) may prefer rules-lighter systems, and/or ones built more around their preferred aesthetic and tone. If no such system exists to your satisfaction, more generic ones like PbtA basically are best used to fill in the gaps.
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Jun 27, 2018 10:53
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RPGs have never been easier to introduce people to, because the ubiquity of video games with RPG elements means that 99% of your prospective audience is already familiar with terms and concepts like levels and experience points and hit points and attack rolls and classes and equipment and status effects and the idea of a character being a collection of statistics that go up and down. Not just WoW or Baldur's Gate, but things like Pokemon and even those stupid pay-to-win mobile games where you pay money to bypass the grind of leveling up. Most of the work of getting people to understand tabletop RPGs and get inside their headspace is already done by the greater pop culture now, which is just mindblowing to consider if you remember growing up in the 1980s.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:21
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I think introducing people to a first-time RPG depends as much on your prospective players as anything. Crunchier systems shouldn't be too much of a problem with players who are at all familiar with video games, for the most part, and if all else fails you can guide them through creation and/or give them pregens, maybe customised to what they want. D&D 4e can very much appeal to people who like the tactical elements of games, though be prepared for combat to get slow as people go over their options and make plans. (hopefully not having to be reminded of all their options too much. There's a reason for things like power cards) This is how I go about it. There isn't a simple solution for every group of new people. Most people I introduce to RPGs ask to play D&D, so we play DCC. Everyone has seen LotR so it's a good starting point, and it's a simple game. The beginner set for FFG Star Wars works too, since most people I know are Star Wars fans. I tried Dungeon World once but people were way too intimidated as new roleplayers by the shared narrative. They really wanted me to guide them so they could say what they wanted to do and roll a die. I definitely wouldn't use a story game again to introduce newbies to RPGs.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:21
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In general my answer to "first RPG to read" would be the same as "first comics to read" - read what excites you and your group. There aren't many "wrong" answers aside from games that are just done in bad taste thematically or artistically. If you're looking for a specific kind of game or setting, that's an easier question to answer. There will be issues with the game. No game is perfect. There will be resources for you to deal with the issues with that game if you like. But just sitting down and playing regularly is the biggest hump to get over.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:23
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I’d be cautious about narrative gamers for first timers. The thing that D&D does really well for beginners - especially 5e with divided chargen - is immediately make clear how it is going to be more systematic than Let’s Pretend, which is what beginners probably know, in a way that connects with character immersion. Want to be a fighter? Here’s a big list of weapons, you’re a badass with almost all of them, see, they change things and you get numbers on how to use them and they go up. Want to be a wizard? Here’s your list of spells to pick from, maybe you did not think of some of these, see they all do specific things with the dice at the table. It’s a good “grab” even if the ultimate result isn’t that great, and beginners don’t know or often care about the ultimate result. Many indie and generic RPGs don’t do this anywhere near as well.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:41
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*nods approvingly at these responses, then scrolls up to see who actually asked the OP what kind of things they liked before suggesting anything* Oh wait yes it was me and only me  e:  
Splicer fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Jun 27, 2018 |
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Jun 27, 2018 12:51
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I think my primary objection to D&D is the results it outputs. The reason you have people wanting to do "whirlwind attacks", or "be a healbot", or "shoot a fireball" in the first place is because they have that kind of pop-culture cachet to draw upon, and I don't think it's difficult to get people to engage with the book-keeping required to begin playing, but if there's no payoff, if the Whirlwind Attack feat is 18 levels too late and the pile of weapons the Fighter gets and the very concept of the Fighter as a competent physical combatant doesn't actually match the image that you all have in your heads (again born of that pop-culture cachet), then it's lame and sucks.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:54
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That Old Tree posted:I know Robotech Tactics is getting embalmed right now, but holy gently caress look at this poo poo: I'm finally watching Macross and it's giving me all new reasons to be annoyed at Palladium's 1980s treatment of Robotech.
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Jun 27, 2018 13:00
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gradenko_2000 posted:I think my primary objection to D&D is the results it outputs. That’s what’s so tricky though. New folks don’t see those results initially and by the time they do, they’re locked in by weight of learning. Other games with better results are harder to sell folks on because they don’t have that cultural alignment and mechanical grab.
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Jun 27, 2018 13:32
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alg posted:They really wanted me to guide them so they could say what they wanted to do and roll a die. I definitely wouldn't use a story game again to introduce newbies to RPGs. If the players just want to "say what they want to do then roll a die," rules-heavy games are going to be bad for them because nothing kills that kind of player's enthusiasm faster than them going "okay, I want to swing from the chandelier and come crashing into the room to duel the boss because it's cool" and the GM replying with "that's DC20 Acrobatics check since you didn't take the Chandelier Swinger feat, and if you succeed you'll still take fall damage but only 2d6 instead of 4d6" (or more often, "sorry, no, the rules don't let you do that"). Whether a more rules-light or rules-heavy game works best is going to vary from new player to new player. Some people like improv and are good at coming up with creative descriptions on the spot, like to contribute story details, and want the GM to go "yes, and" instead of the GM feeding the table room descriptions for them to react to. Some people are uncomfortable with that level of creative control over the game or just aren't as good at improvising colour, and would rather have a more guided experience where the GM has a pre-defined world/adventure and they can just interact with it. You can help the latter type of person get more comfortable with a shared narrative by running something like Fiasco before running the actual game, but it's difficult to get the former type of person to feel happy with the latter type of game. The solution is to ask your players what they're comfortable with and would like to play.  The real issue with introducing new people to RPGs via D&D is that almost every edition of D&D is badly-designed garbage, and even the good editions (4E, B/X or BECMI) have issues in addition to the problem of crunchy games allowing for less player control over the narrative than rules-light stuff. If the table wants rules-heavy games, there are plenty of rules-heavy games that are actually good, and people have recommended several of them already. Trying to introduce new people to RPGs with D&D is like trying to introduce people to Caverna or Gloomhaven by forcing people to play Monopoly first. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Jun 27, 2018 |
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Jun 27, 2018 13:39
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Yea, I’d second Feng Shui for that reason. It has enough specific crunch in the book to make you feel you’re getting to be a martial arts badass better than you would by just imagining one, but encourages doing neat made up stuff too.
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Jun 27, 2018 13:51
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It's also a pretty big disservice to throw something like D&D at a new player, since this is where they'll be forming impressions of the hobby. Which is primarily why I'd recommend a rules-lite game. You're getting an experience that's common to every game, ie: a player character, setting, NPCs, and a conflict resolution system. If players are uncomfortable with those fundamentals, added complexity won't make RPGs more accessible.
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Jun 27, 2018 14:05
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How about the OP just asks their players what kind of game they want to play on the narrative to crunchy spectrum and they choose an appropriate option? That said, personally, I wouldn’t say that rules-light/narratively focused games are difficult for new players at all. Difficult for new GMs, maybe, since it takes a set of skills that aren’t exercised by crunch, but a player that can make a character in 10 minutes and simply declare their intent during play and do what the GM asks is a player that doesn’t pay a large investment up-front. That counts for a LOT. Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Jun 27, 2018 |
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Jun 27, 2018 14:15
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Pollyanna posted:How about the OP just asks their players what kind of game they want to play on the narrative to crunchy spectrum and they choose an appropriate option?
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Jun 27, 2018 14:17
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I don't think any game is particularly bad to introduce new players nowadays. Honestly, if there's a podcast or a twitch-stream or something, that's how most fresh groups will learn. There's more of those now than there ever have been. So even a heavier game like 5e isn't really all that formidable. My personal opinion though? I think the good ol' Red Book/Red Box of Basic D&D is still a great place to start. It's incredibly simple, introduces you to all the core concepts of gaming, and there's a ton of support for it.
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Jun 27, 2018 14:28
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Just pick a system, try it out and if it turns out you really should have played Bubblegum Crisis: MegaTokyo 2033 instead, at least you learned something. edit: Has anyone suggested the Dominion Tank Police RPG? I love David Pulver's work. 1337JiveTurkey fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Jun 27, 2018 |
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Jun 27, 2018 14:45
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Yeah, just ask your players what they're in the mood for and see what you can do with that - though don't worry to much about adhering to the rules, you're here to have fun and tell a cool story. Oh, and speaking of cool stories, folks here who were interested in my gothic action horror Dracula murder simulator Rhapsody of Blood may be interested to know it's now available via Modiphius in print and PDF! If you're in the market for a svelte 64-page RPG of blood-soaked boss fights, soul-contaminating power, and generations of heroes flinging themselves at an evil castle from outside reality, go take a look. (Also, the whole Legacy 2e line is now available in print here - the corebook, the dice and handouts, and the other alternate settings)
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Jun 27, 2018 15:04
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Flavivirus posted:Yeah, just ask your players what they're in the mood for and see what you can do with that - though don't worry to much about adhering to the rules, you're here to have fun and tell a cool story. What! I thought we were here to role dise. What’s this twee hummus bullshit, someone pass me my slide rule.
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Jun 27, 2018 15:15
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Lemon-Lime posted:If the players just want to "say what they want to do then roll a die," rules-heavy games are going to be bad for them because nothing kills that kind of player's enthusiasm faster than them going "okay, I want to swing from the chandelier and come crashing into the room to duel the boss because it's cool" and the GM replying with "that's DC20 Acrobatics check since you didn't take the Chandelier Swinger feat, and if you succeed you'll still take fall damage but only 2d6 instead of 4d6" (or more often, "sorry, no, the rules don't let you do that").
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Jun 27, 2018 15:21
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I'm interested in playing generational Castlevania. Is Rhapsody of Blood a standalone game, or will I need legacy 2e as well?
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Jun 27, 2018 15:24
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grassy gnoll posted:I'm interested in playing generational Castlevania. Is Rhapsody of Blood a standalone game, or will I need legacy 2e as well? Fully standalone. I couldn't cram much rules advice/PbtA best practices in there, so it'd work best if you have a general awareness of things like how moves and GM reactions work and how to move the spotlight around between characters, but there's nothing in there that depends on the text of Legacy. Also! The publishers of Spire are looking for new writers to pitch ideas for it. I can confirm they're lovely people and Spire is a great game, so if you want to get into game writing I'd recommend you check it out.
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Jun 27, 2018 16:02
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Pollyanna posted:How about the OP just asks their players what kind of game they want to play on the narrative to crunchy spectrum and they choose an appropriate option? Seriously everything since about halfway down 117 has been the weirdest and worst way to respond to someone asking "How do I start playing RPGs?" Honestly at this point if it was me I'd be deciding the answer was "don't".
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Jun 27, 2018 16:05
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Splicer posted:So uh a lot of this advice and discussion doesn't seem really applicable to Thom and the Heads's situation of a complete novice GM with complete novice players who are willing to try whatever. These are very important but basic user experience stuff, that seems to not filter down into RPGs very much. So, I guess, if you’re planning on writing an RPG take note.
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Jun 27, 2018 16:41
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DalaranJ posted:These are very important but basic user experience stuff, that seems to not filter down into RPGs very much. So, I guess, if you’re planning on writing an RPG take note.
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Jun 27, 2018 16:53
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Splicer posted:The die system it great for Comprehensive though. Until you hit the actual skill descriptions, where Advantage/Disadvantage dice are all over the place or often just absent. FFG SW also has massive newbie traps in character creation.
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Jun 27, 2018 16:58
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fool_of_sound posted:Until you hit the actual skill descriptions, where Advantage/Disadvantage dice are all over the place or often just absent. FFG SW also has massive newbie traps in character creation.
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Jun 27, 2018 17:25
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Splicer posted:Not sure I follow on the first bit, but yes character creation is part of the failing hard I was talking about for the full game. The starter kits use pregens I remember that a lot of the skill desciptions have incomplete or very limited examples of what to do with Advantage/Disadvantage dice, or sometimes even with excess successes.
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Jun 27, 2018 17:32
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Are there any RPGs set in the modern real world but with a focus on fighting weird sci-fi nasties and PCs can have over the top psychic powers/skills etc? Ideally it would be monster of the week, but entirely sci-fi themed instead of magic/supernatural. I know I can reskin Monster of the Week, but if there's an existing game, why go to the effort? I want something where PCs can have actual combat power, so not Delta Green/Call of Cthulhu.
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Jun 27, 2018 18:18
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clockworkjoe posted:Are there any RPGs set in the modern real world but with a focus on fighting weird sci-fi nasties and PCs can have over the top psychic powers/skills etc? Ideally it would be monster of the week, but entirely sci-fi themed instead of magic/supernatural. modern d20, particularly with the Urban Arcana supplement?
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Jun 27, 2018 18:26
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