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True and good. I'm starting to like the DSA very much.
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Jun 28, 2018 02:19
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quote:"I’m not a great fan of shouting down people or being rude to people," Bernie Sanders said. "People have a right to be angry when Congress gives tax breaks to billionaires and then wants to cut nutrition programs for low income pregnant women." A misleading headline. Also why would the DSA in Boston tweet that pithy reply to the national figure most in line with their views?
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Jun 28, 2018 02:31
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making them pariahs is a constructive way. the coward only threatens when he is safe.
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Jun 28, 2018 02:32
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Marketing New Brain posted:A misleading headline. Also why would the DSA in Boston tweet that pithy reply to the national figure most in line with their views? Hi, welcome to leftist politics.
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Jun 28, 2018 02:32
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Yeah, Bernie's take is a better one than the headline would indicate. There's some nuance there. Still a bad and dumb take, though. Plenty of people get kicked out of/banned from restaurants for less severe behaviour.
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Jun 28, 2018 02:41
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quote:But he said that anger needs to be taken out in a "constructive way" and that people should not be kicked out of restaurants over political differences. ¿Porqué no los dos?
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Jun 28, 2018 02:43
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Marketing New Brain posted:A misleading headline. Also why would the DSA in Boston tweet that pithy reply to the national figure most in line with their views? Because he’s wrong here.
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Jun 28, 2018 03:01
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To be fair this is in-line with Bernie's old jewish hippy beliefs, and at least when it's coming from him it's more believable that he's interested in civility instead of "oh poo poo rich people are getting booed out of restaraunts!!!!" It's still a dumb take but in a harmless grandpa way
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Jun 28, 2018 03:36
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Neurolimal posted:To be fair this is in-line with Bernie's old jewish hippy beliefs, and at least when it's coming from him it's more believable that he's interested in civility instead of "oh poo poo rich people are getting booed out of restaraunts!!!!" Please stop the apologia for Bernie's recent flaming-garbage takes. I'm so loving sick and tired of these spineless pricks.
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Jun 28, 2018 03:39
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Matt Zerella posted:Hi, welcome to leftist politics. look who's defending a bad dem  bernie good but not perfect, many other dems fine to good until a preferable alternative gets their poo poo together, this has been a weird opinion moment for me
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Jun 28, 2018 03:46
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Bernie's a compromise candidate himself, and an important part of politics is to come down on any of 'your' politicians that begins to stray. Billionaires can do it with a tut-tut thinkpiece or a phone call, we have to do it by shouting.
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Jun 28, 2018 03:50
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Watching Bernie squirm away from the ICE disbandment question is pretty disheartening, but whatever, he'll come on-board with more obvious public support.
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Jun 28, 2018 03:59
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Marketing New Brain posted:A misleading headline. Also why would the DSA in Boston tweet that pithy reply to the national figure most in line with their views? You can agree with his policies but be against his approach. People on the left are mad and want to fight. They're tired of losers like Bernie telling them to chill out and just keep losing.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:04
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Bernie didn't even moan when the Democrats rigged the primary against him, it's foolish to count on him to go scorched earth on anyone.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:17
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VitalSigns posted:That is completely open borders as far as immigration is concerned if there's no consequences for coming here illegally. Here’s a fun fact: illegal immigration is a labor rights exploitation issue. If we punished companies so harshly for hiring illegal workers that they would try not to do so, fewer illegal immigrants would come, and many who are here would remove themselves due to lack of economic opportunity. The remainder are actual refugees who deserve a hearing.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:27
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gently caress off Craptacular. Edit: content https://twitter.com/thelindsayellis/status/1012155925996580864?s=21 Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jun 28, 2018 |
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Jun 28, 2018 04:32
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Oh you don't want to prosecute them, you just want to super-effectively ban them from being able to make a living and survive in the hopes that starvation will drive them to make the dangerous crossing back to where they came from. Nevermind I take it back, that is a centrist position!
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Jun 28, 2018 04:34
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VitalSigns posted:Bernie didn't even moan when the Democrats rigged the primary against him, it's foolish to count on him to go scorched earth on anyone. Yeah, this is Bernie's biggest failing as a candidate. I don't think he has it in him to get rough. It's incredibly appealing in a vacuum, but it's more than a little frustrating in the real world.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:39
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VitalSigns posted:Oh you don't want to prosecute them, you just want to super-effectively ban them from being able to make a living and survive in the hopes that starvation will drive them to make the dangerous crossing back to where they came from. It's a difficult issue, because I think we can all agree that we should have a higher and consistently enforced minimum wage. However, enforcing the minimum wage is going to remove the incentive that companies have to hire undocumented workers in the first place, which will naturally make it more difficult for undocumented immigrants to find employment. This dilemma goes away if you remove the barriers to citizenship, but there is an ideological question that has to be answered as to whether you want to have any protections at all for domestic workers, as a vast expansion of the labor pool is going to depress wages, which isn't a great outcome for labor either.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:45
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Matt Zerella posted:Hi, welcome to leftist politics. This and also the comments on that tweet where everyone argues if its bigotry to call an old man "grandpa".
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Jun 28, 2018 04:46
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GreyjoyBastard posted:look who's defending a bad dem Oi vey. A) that's not what I meant at all B) I posted this in the succ zone so I'll post it here. Bernie is an acceptable compromise candidate because at worst you land in the middle. A centrist is an unacceptable compromise candidate in an inherently right wing country because you end up on the right in a compromise. Anyone who's done any kind of even light reading on lefty politics knows an inherent trait is infighting. Or struggle sessions as they're referred to nowadays. Go back and read about Lenin in the early days of the revolution. He'd be an extremely online poster if he were alive today, the likes of which this forum has never seen. Bernie's positions on ice and civility here are unacceptable and he's being criticized for it. The difference is one side is saying do better and another is getting smug and opportunist to criticize the guy who dared to drag Mother to the left 2 years ago.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:48
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The answer, IMO, to "if we end exploitation of immigrant labor the immigrants wont be able to earn a living" would be a combination of more government infrastructure projects, more community development, and maybe even a transitional policy of reserving 20% of public sector construction labor for new immigrants.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:50
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hot centrist take: legalize every undocumented immigrant without exception to remove the sword of damocles that is immigration status from over their necks so that can’t be as exploited. leftist take: abolish borders & capitalism
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Jun 28, 2018 04:52
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Neurolimal posted:The answer, IMO, to "if we end exploitation of immigrant labor the immigrants wont be able to earn a living" would be a combination of more government infrastructure projects, more community development, and maybe even a transitional policy of reserving 20% of public sector construction labor for new immigrants. What type of immigration restrictions would you support to go along with this policy?
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Jun 28, 2018 04:52
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One thing that gives me pause re: open borders is the fact that neoliberalism fully supports it. They want cheap exploitable labor for a reason. It's valid to pull back and admit that our meddling in central and South America for a hundred hears has essentially caused this problem and we absolutely have an obligation to figure something out here that doesn't result in concentration camps for babies.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:53
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Instant Sunrise posted:hot centrist take: legalize every undocumented immigrant without exception to remove the sword of damocles that is immigration status from over their necks so that can’t be as exploited. It's an indication how far right the overton window has shifted when Reagan would be (sort of) counted as a centrist here for IRCA.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:55
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Matt Zerella posted:One thing that gives me pause re: open borders is the fact that neoliberalism fully supports it. They want cheap exploitable labor for a reason. I'm absolutely not a "how are we going to pay for it" type but it's really easy to see how, say, a strong social safety net and jobs/housing guarantee in combination with an open border policy would be, uh, not tenable.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:55
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Matt Zerella posted:One thing that gives me pause re: open borders is the fact that neoliberalism fully supports it. They want cheap exploitable labor for a reason. Oh, most definitely. Abolishing borders would apparently double the world's GDP. It might not happen in our lifetime but I'm guessing Capitalism will eventually destroy national barriers the way Marx predicted it would. Gotta boost those declining rates of profit somehow, after all.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:57
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Matt Zerella posted:Oi vey. This. I'm seeing a LOT of centrists posting Sanders' gaffes and going, "Heh, what do you say to THAT, leftists?! " after most of those selfsame leftists have already said, "This was a dumb thing you said, Bernie, please change your tune on this." It's pretty slimey.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:58
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I'm absolutely not a "how are we going to pay for it" type but it's really easy to see how, say, a strong social safety net and jobs/housing guarantee in combination with an open border policy would be, uh, not tenable. I honestly do not know enough about a lot of this to have an informed opinion. I'd say wasteful military spending and actually taxing corporations would be a good start to find money for this.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:59
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I'm absolutely not a "how are we going to pay for it" type but it's really easy to see how, say, a strong social safety net and jobs/housing guarantee in combination with an open border policy would be, uh, not tenable. The labor pool isn’t zero sum, people who live here to work are also by necessity spending money and paying taxes. The entire problem with the immigration system is that it pushes people into the gray/black market instead of participating in the system properly. This whole line of thinking is based on faulty logic. Likewise, lest we forget, the countries they’re fleeing are hosed because of our actions. Like come the gently caress on guys “the immigrants are coming for free welfare” is literally right wing propaganda.
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Jun 28, 2018 04:59
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The political Left was really born when Robespierre beheaded Danton for agreeing with him on 99% of the issues, but not in the correct way.
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Jun 28, 2018 05:00
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open borders with closed shops + worker ownership to keep new arrivals from being used as a scab force obviously Edit: Lightning Knight posted:The labor pool isn’t zero sum, people who live here to work are also by necessity spending money and paying taxes. The entire problem with the immigration system is that it pushes people into the gray/black market instead of participating in the system properly. This whole line of thinking is based on faulty logic. also this. immigration is a net gain on a society and it’s right wing brain worms that immigrants are coming here to partake of our social safety nets. Instant Sunrise fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Jun 28, 2018 |
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Jun 28, 2018 05:01
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Mantis42 posted:The political Left was really born when Robespierre beheaded Danton for agreeing with him on 99% of the issues, but not in the correct way. Robespierre and Danton had some pretty substantial differences in their policies and broad outlooks actually...
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Jun 28, 2018 05:03
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Mantis42 posted:The political Left was really born when Robespierre beheaded Danton for agreeing with him on 99% of the issues, but not in the correct way. The best book I read this year was October. And while it's a fact based fiction, holy poo poo the arguments between Trotsky and Lenin made my goddamn head spin (I was also poolside on vacation and drunk on margs). It's honestly incredible that revolution happened and ironically that was because women took action while the men were arguing.
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Jun 28, 2018 05:05
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VitalSigns posted:Oh you don't want to prosecute them, you just want to super-effectively ban them from being able to make a living and survive in the hopes that starvation will drive them to make the dangerous crossing back to where they came from. We actually need more immigrants because our birthrates are declining and socialist systems need workers paying into the system to subsidize those drawing from it, and I'm totally in favor of more work visas etc. I'm also in favor of having controls over how large the labor pools get, because if it's left completely unchecked socialist systems will eventually see enough people drawing more benefits than they contribute that it will become just as unstable. I don't want to become Japan, but let's not become the opposite either? Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Jun 28, 2018 |
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Jun 28, 2018 05:05
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Majorian posted:This. I'm seeing a LOT of centrists posting Sanders' gaffes and going, "Heh, what do you say to THAT, leftists?! It's always fun to see which posters come in here to slam leftists any time something goes the slightest bit wrong, like when a bunch of people had to show their rear end about Chelsea Manning because lol a leftist looked stupid.
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Jun 28, 2018 05:07
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Lightning Knight posted:The labor pool isn’t zero sum, people who live here to work are also by necessity spending money and paying taxes. The entire problem with the immigration system is that it pushes people into the gray/black market instead of participating in the system properly. This whole line of thinking is based on faulty logic. I mean, sure. I think what I'm wary of is any position short of open borders being painted as "anti-immigration".
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Jun 28, 2018 05:07
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Craptacular! posted:Here’s a fun fact: illegal immigration is a labor rights exploitation issue. If we punished companies so harshly for hiring illegal workers that they would try not to do so, fewer illegal immigrants would come, and many who are here would remove themselves due to lack of economic opportunity. The remainder are actual refugees who deserve a hearing. You're right, it's terrible. Won't someone please inform these illegal immigrants of the decades, and in many cases, a century or more of America's ceaseless bipartisan efforts to ensure their labor is exploited by brutally repressive right wing authoritarians at home, so that they don't have to come here to be exploited? I mean sure, when the impoverished masses eking out their existence are devastated by a natural disaster and watch their friends and family die by the thousands both abruptly and due to the utter inadequacy of these perpetually manicured client-states*, then maybe we can allow some infinitesimal fraction of your most deserving refugees**. Really hope they're understanding of the steadily increasing levels of demonization and refusal by most to allow them to integrate, that's just the price of the transaction in fair-market immigration allowance. Funner fact: We exploit them at their home so we don't have to here, but they're just so persistent at seeking a better life it'd be a herculean er, well, fascistic task to keep them all out so I guess we can exploit them here too for now. *Apologies to non-client-states, we're constantly hard at work rectifying that **We're a nation of laws so you better have a truly horrific sob story, it's a fine line between refugee and illegal, after all.
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Jun 28, 2018 05:08
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I mean, sure. I think what I'm wary of is any position short of open borders being painted as "anti-immigration". I mean, because it is. People should be able to live wherever they want to live. If you’re so worried about them coming here, ask yourself why their countries are so bad that they want to. Hint: it’s because we bombed them, usually. Or if not us, then Britain/some other imperial power historically. You don’t get to ruin everyone else’s country and then deploy bullshit faulty logic to explain why they have to stay there now and we get all the nice things.
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Jun 28, 2018 05:13
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