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Agreed. Where we differ (in my locale) is an assessment on the state of electoral politics and their effectiveness. When volunteer labor is limited, the choices are actually mutually exclusive -- you throw your time in to funneling people into the democratic party (not wise in general, imo, but especially where I'm at), or you organize with otherwise unorganized and disinterested individuals.
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Jun 29, 2018 14:34
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Kudaros posted:Agreed. Where we differ (in my locale) is an assessment on the state of electoral politics and their effectiveness. When volunteer labor is limited, the choices are actually mutually exclusive -- you throw your time in to funneling people into the democratic party (not wise in general, imo, but especially where I'm at), or you organize with otherwise unorganized and disinterested individuals. no, that sounds like you are taking the correct approach. not sure what party/org youre with but generally standing in elections should be happening only once you have sufficient independent working class organization. running in them without that first will waste time and resources. thats an important distinction cause while its ludicrous to reject bourgeois elections full stop, there are groups which see running in elections as a way to build movements and organization, but the reality is they are an expression and consequence of organization.
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Jun 29, 2018 14:42
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https://twitter.com/Integrity_Guy/status/1012339571135336449?s=19
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Jun 29, 2018 15:53
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https://twitter.com/aseeestudies/status/1012770192630349826 someone submit the contents of this thread in their entirety
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Jun 29, 2018 19:51
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apropos to nothing posted:no, that sounds like you are taking the correct approach. not sure what party/org youre with but generally standing in elections should be happening only once you have sufficient independent working class organization. running in them without that first will waste time and resources. thats an important distinction cause while its ludicrous to reject bourgeois elections full stop, there are groups which see running in elections as a way to build movements and organization, but the reality is they are an expression and consequence of organization. i think i agree with what you and kudaros are saying about how to approach the electoral system: it's always going to be a contextual decision. you have to factor in both the level of already-existing leftist power in the area that an electoral campaign could draw on, as well as opportunities that that area's electoral situation presents to a socialist candidate. but, i do want to push back on the notion that running in elections cannot be a way to build movements and organizations. let's take AOC's election as a concrete example. the consequences of her win--beyond the almost-guaranteed congressional seat--have been an influx of resources to the DSA. i saw some brooklyn DSA person on twitter say that their latest meeting had like 50% brand new faces, and i've seen posts about people joining the org or donating money because of her victory. i take this to mean that engaging in electoral politics and winning can help build power for explicitly socialist movements and organizations. ofc, running a campaign has a low likelihood of winning is just going to waste resources. but, as stated above, that's why the decision is highly contextual Finicums Wake fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jun 29, 2018 |
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Jun 29, 2018 20:56
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GalacticAcid posted:https://twitter.com/aseeestudies/status/1012770192630349826 cspam is, literally, post-communism. at least in one sense
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Jun 29, 2018 20:59
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Finicums Wake posted:cspam is, literally, post-communism. at least in one sense 
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Jun 29, 2018 21:05
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i used to think the application of cybernetics to central planning was just a gimmick, like trying to shore up a fundamentally unsound structure with newfangled bullshit*. but, if somenoe can set up a direct connection between a poster's brain and the planning system, then i think everything will work out. for that reason, i consider all of my fellow posters to be co-leaders of the revolutionary vanguard, with me at the helm ofc. *i'm taking math at community college, so this might be the worng take
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Jun 29, 2018 21:11
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Vicky 1 told me communism is the best form of government as long as you have the work ethic to sit there and do the loving clicks
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Jun 29, 2018 21:16
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rudatron posted:mathematical historical determinism, of psychohistory check out Peter Turchin (or the academic field he's trying to start called cliodynamics), because as far as i can tell it's exacrtly this. haven't gotten my hands on one of his actual books tho, so mb i'm wrong + it sucks
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Jun 29, 2018 21:18
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Choice of tactic also tends to decide who your audience is. Running elections here, I can draw plenty of caricatures of who votes in the primaries. Tenant union organizing and affordable housing campaigns puts you in contact with a different segment of society. It also builds lasting relationships. This may be less true in NYC, but it is the *rule* in a lot of places. Some drama took place last year that I don't want to get too into, but basically a failure to have a decent conversation about this lead to co-optation followed by collapse of an effort I had poured my life into. Organizing ages a person 5x faster.
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Jun 29, 2018 21:28
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i say swears online posted:Vicky 1 told me communism is the best form of government as long as you have the work ethic to sit there and do the loving clicks Vicky 2 tells you that Chinese communism is the best system, where you let the capitalists build a bunch of factories and then nationalize them all
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Jun 29, 2018 21:41
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Larry Parrish posted:Vicky 2 tells you that Chinese communism is the best system, where you let the capitalists build a bunch of factories and then nationalize them all Art imitates life, after all.
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Jun 29, 2018 21:42
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Jun 29, 2018 21:57
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Kudaros posted:Choice of tactic also tends to decide who your audience is. Running elections here, I can draw plenty of caricatures of who votes in the primaries. Tenant union organizing and affordable housing campaigns puts you in contact with a different segment of society. It also builds lasting relationships. This may be less true in NYC, but it is the *rule* in a lot of places. Some drama took place last year that I don't want to get too into, but basically a failure to have a decent conversation about this lead to co-optation followed by collapse of an effort I had poured my life into. drat dude, i'm sorry to hear about that. especially if things fell apart because leftist people couldn't talk openly and strategize, rather than just the situation itself being too far tilted against whatever strategy you guys were stuck running + putting effort into one part of the reason i lean towards electoralism (on a contextual basis) is the kinds of responses i've seen from an extremely similiar, though more liberal-leaning forum. i quit reading it a few months ago because, after the trump election, it was filled with unrepentant hillary people blaming everyone besides the candidate or themselves for trump's election. but, i checked in two days ago, and saw overwhelmingly positive response for AOC's win. people saying they signed up to DSA or even IWW, in response to feeling that leftist strategists are viable and necessary given the situation. for people that already think DSA isn't far left enough or disagree with a big-tent approach, i'm sure hearing that some left-liberals are joining these orgs can be easily dismissed. but i do think that a lot of already-engaged liberal activists can be persuaded to become actual socialiststs, and that successful electoralism can push them in that direction
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Jun 29, 2018 21:58
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Is chelsea manning a cia psyop. I demand answers immediately.
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Jun 29, 2018 22:38
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https://twitter.com/curtis_morton/status/1012821566810402817
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Jun 29, 2018 23:38
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Finicums Wake posted:i think i agree with what you and kudaros are saying about how to approach the electoral system: it's always going to be a contextual decision. you have to factor in both the level of already-existing leftist power in the area that an electoral campaign could draw on, as well as opportunities that that area's electoral situation presents to a socialist candidate. but, i do want to push back on the notion that running in elections cannot be a way to build movements and organizations. so to your pushback, I actually agree. when I say movements cant be built off of elections, its more to say you cant use an election to build a movement or organization, however if you orient the campaign correctly, then yes it can strengthen movements and organization that already exist. a good example is the victories and defeats of socialists in places like seattle and new york. in seattle, there has been a large socialist presence there for decades that had been organizing. after kshamas victory there and jon grant and nikita olivers strong showing recently, the organization and militancy that was already present has increased exponentially in the past 5 years. similarly in new york, organizing has been happening there for a while, a lot of nationwide socialist orgs have their HQs there. now with the races like brisports and ocasio cortez's that organization will increase and expand greatly I'd imagine. youre right, its all context dependent. thats prolly the biggest stumbling block for many socialists: they read lenin or marx and take what they wrote as rigid dogma but no, most of their writing and tactics they put forward is situational and reflects the way forward in the specific circumstances they faced. a great example is in the transitional program trotsky lays out the transitional demand of armed factory militias for the workers. he was suggesting this in 1938 when workers and labor unions throughout europe and the us were in practically pitched battles against fascists and some state forces, and the workers were drawing revolutionary conclusions and in some cases had very recently tried and failed revolutionary action. some modern socialists take this to mean that now, in 2018 we should be calling for labor unions to create armed militias as a transitional demand. its absurd in the present circumstance because the organization and militancy of the workers is nothing compared to 1938 germany or spain, however because they view what is written as a dogma they treat it like some ironclad rule that must not be broken. they actually stop thinking dialectically about the class struggle, which is unfortunate.
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Jun 30, 2018 00:30
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how is michael parenti so good goddamit
platzapS fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Jun 30, 2018 |
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Jun 30, 2018 09:35
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lollontee posted:goondolences It's not so much that we treat the Constitution as holy, it's just the constitution itself makes it real hard to make constitutional changes. It requires either: 2/3 of both the House and the Senate (which pretty much removes the possibility of getting rid of the unrepresentative Senate) OR 2/3 of the state legislatures (which are bastions of provincial economic interests) Any effective majority socialist movement would pretty much have to ignore the 1787 constitution and create a new thing.
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Jun 30, 2018 09:49
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platzapS posted:It's not so much that we treat the Constitution as holy, it's just the constitution itself makes it real hard to make constitutional changes. It requires either: a constitutional convention forced by a mass movement rather than approval from state legislatures is a pretty viable way of doing it, i think, even if it is a little west wing.
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Jun 30, 2018 11:29
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Keep in mind the actual convention that produce the Constitution itself was not organized under the auspices of the Articles of Confederation
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Jun 30, 2018 12:55
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The Articles were so lovely they just didn't even bother. Much like the Constitution.
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Jun 30, 2018 12:58
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it's not constitutional at all to abolish the senate. you'd have to make a new constitution altogether
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Jun 30, 2018 15:03
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there's nothing in the constitution saying that you can't have a dog as the senate...
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Jun 30, 2018 15:12
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Can someone post some good sources about the communist administration of Kerala because it's hilarious how much more advanced it is than the rest of India
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Jun 30, 2018 15:15
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Plutonis posted:Can someone post some good sources about the communist administration of Kerala because it's hilarious how much more advanced it is than the rest of India kerala's weird. it's also the most highly educated and most christian state too
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Jun 30, 2018 15:38
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i say swears online posted:kerala's weird. it's also the most highly educated and most christian state too getfiscal's dream
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Jun 30, 2018 15:54
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Algund Eenboom posted:Is chelsea manning a cia psyop. I demand answers immediately. no she's just mentally broken from spending years in solitary confinement
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Jun 30, 2018 16:14
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platzapS posted:It's not so much that we treat the Constitution as holy, it's just the constitution itself makes it real hard to make constitutional changes. It requires either: Ain't no thing as that's what they did with the articles of confederation
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Jun 30, 2018 16:24
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platzapS posted:It's not so much that we treat the Constitution as holy, it's just the constitution itself makes it real hard to make constitutional changes. It requires either:
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Jun 30, 2018 16:53
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The convention that was created in 1787 wasn't created by the Congress of the Confederation
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Jun 30, 2018 17:03
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if by some strange fluke there’s a convention it’ll be convened to pass a balanced budget amendment (they apparently claim to have 28/34 states and are trying to get more republican legislatures onboard), and while they’re at it they’ll exceed their authority and create an authoritarian theocracy ala Gilead
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Jun 30, 2018 17:28
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when these people propose a balanced budget amendment, are they poo poo-for-brains kool aid drinkers that don't understand you need to deficit spend to sustain the economy or do they plan to make up for it with central bank shenanigans
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Jul 1, 2018 04:02
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comedyblissoption posted:when these people propose a balanced budget amendment, are they poo poo-for-brains kool aid drinkers that don't understand you need to deficit spend to sustain the economy or do they plan to make up for it with central bank shenanigans They're just poo poo brained
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Jul 1, 2018 04:06
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comedyblissoption posted:when these people propose a balanced budget amendment, are they poo poo-for-brains kool aid drinkers that don't understand you need to deficit spend to sustain the economy or do they plan to make up for it with central bank shenanigans there's no shortage of incredibly stupid people interested in politics.
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Jul 1, 2018 04:09
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also don't mistake balanced budget bullshit for just a republican platform the nancy pelosis of the world want it too lol
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Jul 1, 2018 04:09
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comedyblissoption posted:when these people propose a balanced budget amendment, are they poo poo-for-brains kool aid drinkers that don't understand you need to deficit spend to sustain the economy or do they plan to make up for it with central bank shenanigans the people who support it are either incredibly uneducated on the issue and have no idea how government finance works and the other half are people who legitimately want to go back an Articles strength government so the corporations can finally literally run everything
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Jul 1, 2018 05:01
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comedyblissoption posted:the nancy pelosis you should get that checked out
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Jul 1, 2018 05:10
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