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On the other hand, he also says he won't be the last Jedi, Rey gets the texts, and so on. Luke didn't renounce the Jedi ways. "I will not be the last Jedi."
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Jun 29, 2018 17:10
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As bad as the old EU got, I still liked the general timeline of it up to the end of the YV invasion. ONe of the major themes after the prequels came out was that the New Jedi Order should be different from the old one, and should not repeat the mistakes of the past. When Luke recreated the Jedi Council, he built it differently from the old one: including non-Jedis as well as Jedi of various "levels (knights as well as Masters). Now, it was still linked to the Republic, but that's a start.
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Jun 29, 2018 17:21
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MonsieurChoc posted:On the other hand, he also says the Force belongs to everyone and the Jedi trying to paint themselves as the sole guardians of the Force was bad. Milky Moor posted:On the other hand, he also says he won't be the last Jedi, Rey gets the texts, and so on. Well now we're talking the end of the film, where Luke doesn't actually change, but uses the legend of the Jedi to spread a message of balance to the entire galaxy. This is, in his view, the true victory of the time he tricked Vader into killing himself: "I became a legend. For many years, there was balance... and then I [became hubristic, and was punished for my excessive confidence]." The wisdom he passes on is "don't be hubristic and actually believe you're great - instead just lie about how great you are."
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Jun 29, 2018 17:31
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MonsieurChoc posted:As bad as the old EU got, I still liked the general timeline of it up to the end of the YV invasion. ONe of the major themes after the prequels came out was that the New Jedi Order should be different from the old one, and should not repeat the mistakes of the past. When Luke recreated the Jedi Council, he built it differently from the old one: including non-Jedis as well as Jedi of various "levels (knights as well as Masters). Now, it was still linked to the Republic, but that's a start. I think that was one of the (numerous) things about the New Jedi Order series that was walked back really very quickly in the next couple of series, along with most of the "next generation" characters getting written out in one way or another (variously getting killed off, turning to the dark side, being sent out into deep space on nebulous missions - I'm pretty sure Chewie's Jedi nephew, Lowbacca, was removed that way) so Luke and Han and Leia can still be the heroes. Likewise, I think becoming beholden to the prequels hurt at least that part of the EU. They'd spent about 10 years coming up with their own backstory, which was admittedly very vague to allow for the prequels, but a lot of parts still didn't quite fit together. I think they ought to have just gone off in their own direction. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jun 29, 2018 |
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Jun 29, 2018 17:34
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think that was one of the (numerous) things about the New Jedi Order series that was walked back really very quickly in the next couple of series, along with most of the "next generation" characters getting written out in one way or another (variously getting killed off, turning to the dark side, being sent out into deep space on nebulous missions - I'm pretty sure Chewie's Jedi nephew, Lowbacca, was removed that way) so Luke and Han and Leia can still be the heroes. I quit the EU when the Bugnest Orgies started. I'm nowhere near as huge a Star Wars fan as I used to be. But the old EU was part of my childhood and teenage years so I guess the nostalgia's still there.
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Jun 29, 2018 17:51
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tadashi posted:I don't know if we're agreeing, exactly, but I took it to mean that Luke questioned how he could possible stop the power of the Dark Side if an entire group of Jedi Masters couldn't stop it? Reminder that the Jedi couldn't stop the dark side because they were wallowing in it themselves, explicitly as of AOTC, but it began long before then. So how is it possible to stop the dark side? Don't participate in it.
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Jun 29, 2018 18:12
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Legends luke: could not fail, only be failed Disney luke: could only fail
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Jun 29, 2018 18:41
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I like the latter Luke.
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Jun 29, 2018 19:00
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But which one is Taller Luke?
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Jun 29, 2018 19:06
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MonsieurChoc posted:I quit the EU when the Bugnest Orgies started. I'm nowhere near as huge a Star Wars fan as I used to be. But the old EU was part of my childhood and teenage years so I guess the nostalgia's still there. I stuck it through to the end of Legacy of the Force, then the last one I read was Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor (as I recall, despite his name being in the title, Luke was actually kind of a nothing character in that one) which I believe came out in 2008. I stopped reading them partly because I didn't think they'd been very good and I hadn't been enjoying them very much, and partly because I felt like I'd outgrown them. Like you described, they were a big part of my childhood and teenage years (I associate them with going on holiday with my family, because that's when I mostly read them) but every time I think of them, even the ones I liked, I just don't think they'd hold up. It's probably odd, though, that I still like re-reading the Star Wars comics and replaying some of the games. Not sure what the difference is for me, but there is one. 
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Jun 29, 2018 19:08
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The Jedi Order, in their arrogance, believed that they could not be affected by the darkness. They believed that their wisdom could keep the Chosen One from joining the red team, that their power could destroy the reemerging Sith, and their stewardship could uphold the Republic. Luke, as usual, interprets the situation as a contest between people rather than ideologies. The Jedi were taken in by Sidious' illusion, and one of their own became his top enforcer and a participant in Imperial oppression. He thought his job was to try the Jedi Order thing again but do it right this time. He believed in the ideal, much as Obi-Wan did. Then he had a premonition of creating his own Vader, who'd help the red team wipe out the Jedi and do miscellaneous atrocities. It spooked him, and when that resulted in his vision coming true, he eventually decided "Well, if I can't do Jedi right, nobody can," and dedicated himself to preventing anybody from trying in increasingly decisive ways. So, he didn't exactly overcome the hubris, there. He seems concerned with the disposition of the Jedi religion and not with the political status of the galaxy
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Jun 29, 2018 19:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well now we're talking the end of the film, where Luke doesn't actually change, but uses the legend of the Jedi to spread a message of balance to the entire galaxy. This is, in his view, the true victory of the time he tricked Vader into killing himself: The insightful part of this depiction of Luke is that he very much is the student of Obi-wan, failing to adequately love his pupil and then inspiring the galaxy with a trick death. I think what people identify as its failing is that Luke's determination to move beyond this was a central aspect of his character that determined the outcome of the OT. This is a Luke who would have killed Vader. It almost makes sense to read the ST as taking place in an alternate timeline in which the throne room scene played out entirely differently, with Luke simply killing both Vader and the Emperor. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Jun 29, 2018 |
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Jun 29, 2018 19:13
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I guess where I'm coming from is seeing that Luke's performance was not made with the whole galaxy in mind, but specifically for an audience of one: Kylo Ren. He's saying "Luke Skywalker is still alive, he has powers you cannot fathom, and you'll have new enemies courtesy of him." Luke's idea of the Jedi is that they were guardians of peace and justice who used their knowledge of the ways of the Force and were feared by the Empire. At the end, after meeting up with Yoda, he decided to trust that Rey might live up to that potential, and used his formidable psychic powers in a bloodless encounter to intimidate the leader of the red team and cover her escape. Making himself, momentarily, the avatar of the Resistance, what did he demonstrate? Not that he'll fight - he wasn't fighting. He was demonstrating that, just as Kylo Ren could literally not even touch him, the First Order can't wipe out the Resistance. They can destroy the Republic, but over ten of these movies it's pretty clear that the Republic isn't the alternative to Empire, and the ending presents hope in the form of a new resistance that is not motivated by legends of a more civilized age but by a desire for their own liberation. Broom kid is a new Anakin, but the new Jedi Order, rather than being a decadent institution entangled with a corrupt government, is a girl with some old books.
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Jun 29, 2018 19:36
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Bongo Bill posted:I guess where I'm coming from is seeing that Luke's performance was not made with the whole galaxy in mind, but specifically for an audience of one: Kylo Ren. He's saying "Luke Skywalker is still alive, he has powers you cannot fathom, and you'll have new enemies courtesy of him." I think it works out, in that the books represent the Jedi secrets which they were so keen to keep in their own hands. Going back to episode 1, the books contain the teachings they thought Anakin was too old for, etc, and that there were only two people left to pass on to Luke. So if Rey basically fires up the printing press and distributes them free on the HoloNet, we may be getting somewhere. That actually changes things, because to a large degree Star Wars has actually been about conflicts over who knows the basics of using the Force effectively, which was a Jedi secret that the Sith took with them when they split. No one else, evidently, knows this stuff. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jun 29, 2018 |
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Jun 29, 2018 19:55
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When did Luke start to take Obi-Wan's opinions seriously? Is it in one of the post-RotJ books?
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Jun 29, 2018 19:57
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Hodgepodge posted:The insightful part of this depiction of Luke is that he very much is the student of Obi-wan, failing to adequately love his pupil and then inspiring the galaxy with a trick death. Yeah this is a good point. In the end Luke is just a supporting character in TLJ, but even so it's weird to have a well-established character backslide like that off screen.
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Jun 29, 2018 19:59
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From the first time they met?
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Jun 29, 2018 19:59
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:Reminder that the Jedi couldn't stop the dark side because they were wallowing in it themselves, explicitly as of AOTC, but it began long before then. Right: Luke doesn’t figure this out, and so he’s basically calling for a return to the way things were at the start of Phantom Menace, back when we had Chancellor Vallorum and the Jedi only accepted easily-brainwashed toddlers. Or earlier, to before the Republic. Luke’s not offering any sort of radical insight. His ‘accomplishment’ at the end of the film, in keeping with the gnostic imagery, is to turn Jediism into (even more of) an initiatic religion with esoteric ‘secret teachings’ inaccessible to the outside world. Luke passes on his wisdom to Rey, while literally projecting the opposite message to the rest of the world. Only the initiated can know that the Jedi are weak.
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Jun 29, 2018 20:10
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Wheat Loaf posted:It's probably odd, though, that I still like re-reading the Star Wars comics and replaying some of the games. Not sure what the difference is for me, but there is one. Because they're better. drat now i wanna re-read "In the Empire's Service" and replay KOTOR 2.
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Jun 29, 2018 21:33
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Because they're better. I guess it's because comics and games are visual, as much as anything. I recently found this news article from 2002 immediately before Attack of the Clones was released which included excerpts from an interview with Lucas where he's explaining how, for him, the visual is everything where Star Wars is concerned. Novels don't have that. Probably why is purported favourite EU story was a comic (Dark Empire, apparently).
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Jun 29, 2018 22:15
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Hodgepodge posted:I think it works out, in that the books represent the Jedi secrets which they were so keen to keep in their own hands. Going back to episode 1, the books contain the teachings they thought Anakin was too old for, etc, and that there were only two people left to pass on to Luke. So if Rey basically fires up the printing press and distributes them free on the HoloNet, we may be getting somewhere. Ah yes, I see someone has been reading Elizabeth Eisenstein, The Printing Press As An Agent of Change, Vol. 3: Information Revolutions of the Outer Rim
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Jun 29, 2018 23:39
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Are we sure TLJ Luke wasn't actualy Luuke or maybe even Luuuke?
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Jun 29, 2018 23:47
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CelticPredator posted:From the first time they met? Come with me to Alderaan lol no I'm going home
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Jun 29, 2018 23:55
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Wheat Loaf posted:It's probably odd, though, that I still like re-reading the Star Wars comics and replaying some of the games. Not sure what the difference is for me, but there is one. Star Wars is primarily a visual medium, though the EU gave it a good shot being a novel series. Good visuals have no age floor or ceiling and can make up for mediocre stories in many cases. I've always been a big fan of the comics and wish they'd have focused more on that instead for the main EU stories. Hodgepodge posted:No one else, evidently, knows this stuff. Rey info dumping the books like a Galactic Wikileaks and causing uprisings throughout FO space as people realize their powers on a rudimentary level, but enough of one to be a problem to security forces and inspire revolts in occupied space because "Holy poo poo! The jedi aren't just "back" WE'RE the Jedi let's put heads on loving pikes", would be kickass. It'd be hitting the reset button, possibly in all the wrong ways as people learn 'nothing' from the past and the dark side would still be a thing. There'd be a another Force war, a another schism from the losing side, and a few centuries later we're basically back at the Tales of the Jedi comic again about to run the whole series back with different names and locations. Dishwasher fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jun 30, 2018 |
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Jun 30, 2018 00:10
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sassassin posted:Come with me to Alderaan He still looked up to him though. It’s not that he didn’t trust him, he had dumb farm poo poo to do.
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Jun 30, 2018 02:59
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Luke's moment of true heroism in ROJ is when he doesn't kill Vader, and the point of TLJ is that he doesn't get that a lot of people are confused and hurt by this being the structure of the story because they, also, don't get that
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Jun 30, 2018 03:04
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Bleck posted:Luke's moment of true heroism in ROJ is when he doesn't kill Vader, and the point of TLJ is that he doesn't get that Nope. Luke very clearly says that not-killing Vader was his main or only ‘legendary’ accomplishment. He then hosed up really, really, badly in his day-to-day life. What Luke doesn’t realize - and never realizes - is why things went so wrong with his school.
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Jun 30, 2018 03:55
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Is Luke a volcel?
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Jun 30, 2018 04:11
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porfiria posted:Is Luke a volcel? Depends, is JJ or Rian directing?
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Jun 30, 2018 07:35
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CelticPredator posted:He still looked up to him though. It’s not that he didn’t trust him, he had dumb farm poo poo to do. He liked old Ben but was always his own man doing what he thought was right. Luke used Yoda & Kenobi for training and exposition but ignored all their life advice from the get go.
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Jun 30, 2018 09:11
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Wheat Loaf posted:I stuck it through to the end of Legacy of the Force, then the last one I read was Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor (as I recall, despite his name being in the title, Luke was actually kind of a nothing character in that one) which I believe came out in 2008. I stopped reading them partly because I didn't think they'd been very good and I hadn't been enjoying them very much, and partly because I felt like I'd outgrown them. The only ones I could manage to re-read were the Zahn and Allston books: every other one I found the writing so bad I couldn't finish them. I've read a lot more books since my youth and it seems I've become accustomed to a higher standard, although I still have fun with pulpy books from time to time. I really like my copy of of the annotated Heir to the Empire. Although even as a kid I found the Prince Ken saga terrible.
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Jun 30, 2018 10:50
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No Stackpole love? I always loved his bio on the jacket. Something about mountain biking to look less like a mountain.
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Jun 30, 2018 14:40
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Stackpole was definitely one of the better writers in the old EU.
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Jun 30, 2018 15:05
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Stackpole is pretty hacky, especially his habit of trying to "futurize" common turns of phrase. "Doesn't ring a bell for me" becoming "doesn't manipulate a hologram for me," etc.
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Jun 30, 2018 15:37
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Timby posted:Stackpole is pretty hacky, especially his habit of trying to "futurize" common turns of phrase. "Doesn't ring a bell for me" becoming "doesn't manipulate a hologram for me," etc. All of these futurizations were worth it for “refresher course”
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Jun 30, 2018 15:52
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Timby posted:Stackpole is pretty hacky, especially his habit of trying to "futurize" common turns of phrase. "Doesn't ring a bell for me" becoming "doesn't manipulate a hologram for me," etc. And he's still one of the better writers in the old EU.
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Jun 30, 2018 15:54
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Timby posted:Stackpole is pretty hacky, especially his habit of trying to "futurize" common turns of phrase. "Doesn't ring a bell for me" becoming "doesn't manipulate a hologram for me," etc. "Losing you just ripped the emotional skeleton out of me."
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Jun 30, 2018 16:29
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No one else could describe space battles worth a drat like he could though. Or maybe I’m just biased towards the X-wing books.
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Jun 30, 2018 17:24
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Zoran posted:All of these futurizations were worth it for “refresher course” Beat me to it (though I think that joke was from an Allston novel)
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Jun 30, 2018 17:43
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:What Luke doesn’t realize - and never realizes - is why things went so wrong with his school. so what you're saying here is that the scene where Luke explains the mistake he made and suffers for is bad because Luke doesn't realize the mistake he made and suffers for, and that's bad writing because [data not found]
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Jun 30, 2018 18:17
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