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I could never get through the Zahn books. Their enduring popularity is kinda baffling to me. The dumb force salamanders, the cloning, Thrawn listening to Wagner, stroking his chin, and going “I know just how to beat this Hitler fellow” It was all soooooo stupid.
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Jun 30, 2018 18:52
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I could never get through the Zahn books. Their enduring popularity is kinda baffling to me. The dumb force salamanders, the cloning, Thrawn listening to Wagner, stroking his chin, and going “I know just how to beat this Hitler fellow” People read them when they were 12 and either A) didn't go back to them or B) continued to have the taste of a 12 year old.
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Jun 30, 2018 19:01
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I could never get through the Zahn books. Their enduring popularity is kinda baffling to me. The dumb force salamanders, the cloning, Thrawn listening to Wagner, stroking his chin, and going “I know just how to beat this Hitler fellow” They set the tone for the rest of the EU and they're fairly military sci-fi in that respect. I remember reading that Brian Daley and James Luceno (who co-wrote the Robotech novelisations under the pseudonym Jack McKinney; Daley had written the Star Wars audio drama scripts and the original Han Solo Adventures novels and Luceno went on to write a lot of Star Wars novels) were approached by Del Rey or Bantam in 1990 and invited to write EU novels, and they wanted it to be more of a space fantasy than that.
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Jun 30, 2018 19:25
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“Refresher” meant shower, right
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Jun 30, 2018 19:46
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:“Refresher” meant shower, right Toilet
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Jun 30, 2018 19:47
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Bathroom? Also I remember when the first neEU book came out and used something like "toilet" instead of "refresher" - some nerds were in a tizzy, let me tell you
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Jun 30, 2018 20:17
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Wheat Loaf posted:They set the tone for the rest of the EU and they're fairly military sci-fi in that respect. I remember reading that Brian Daley and James Luceno (who co-wrote the Robotech novelisations under the pseudonym Jack McKinney; Daley had written the Star Wars audio drama scripts and the original Han Solo Adventures novels and Luceno went on to write a lot of Star Wars novels) were approached by Del Rey or Bantam in 1990 and invited to write EU novels, and they wanted it to be more of a space fantasy than that. The plot beats of the new movies are similar to those of the EU. We just didn't get twenty years of Ben getting kidnapped every three weeks.
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Jun 30, 2018 20:18
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Sodomy Hussein posted:The plot beats of the new movies are similar to those of the EU. We just didn't get twenty years of Ben getting kidnapped every three weeks. Give it another 20 years. They are going to have to fill in that 30 year period before The Force Awakens.
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Jun 30, 2018 23:14
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Hey, everbody. I just re-watched Last Jedi and it's still a super fun movie where a lot of cool poo poo happens and was intentionally funnier than I remember and I had a good time. K thx. Bye.
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Jun 30, 2018 23:18
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Vader in Empire Strikes Back is explicitly trying to recruit the more left-wing rebel forces to help him perform a coup against the Emperor and so create a new more egalitarian government.: I haven’t seen it in a decade or so, what makes this explicit? What I remember of his recruitment speech sounds like a hereditary monarchy, not an egalitarian revolution
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Jun 30, 2018 23:18
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Vader's ambition to Luke in Empire is to overthrow the Emperor, end the civil war, and establish a hereditary monarchy, which, okay, whatever, but the main point is to "bring order to the galaxy," an ambiguous phrase whose full meaning isn't really understood until he lays out his ideals in Clones. He dreams of a benevolent authoritarian state in which a powerful dictator compels his subordinates to do whatever is in the people's best interest. At first he thinks that Chancellor Palpatine could be such a dictator, but at the end of the war he has come to believe that he himself has the strength to do it. His other goals are the same in both time periods - end the war, rule the galaxy - so it's reasonable to suppose that the third goal, eliminate the "chaos" that lets the common people slip through the cracks, is the same as well. Darth Vader's politics arise from his formative experiences: he was a slave who dreamed of becoming powerful and ending slavery, then spent a decade getting a close inside view of the mechanisms of political power that have failed to end slavery. His self-loathing, spite, cruelty, and resignation to his later bondage don't change those basic goals.
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Jun 30, 2018 23:36
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I keep thinking about how big JJs plate is for IX. The lack of a plan is really hurting the trilogy. This is stuff he must answer in addition to providing a satisfying conclusion. -Knights of Ren -Why did Lukes saber call to Rey/what was the awakening? -What is Rey? Maybe she isn't related to someone important but why is she so powerful? -Who was Snoke? What was his plan or objective? Why did he use weapons and tech that was exactly like the Empire?
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Jun 30, 2018 23:38
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I could never get through the Zahn books. Their enduring popularity is kinda baffling to me. The dumb force salamanders, the cloning, Thrawn listening to Wagner, stroking his chin, and going “I know just how to beat this Hitler fellow” Nah, it's all fairly normal space pulp and the writing itself doesn't make me want to claw my eyes out. Zahn also managed to keep the characters fairly consistent with the movies and the new ones fit fairly well with the Star Wars universe.
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Jun 30, 2018 23:40
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:-Knights of Ren it's likely that the best possible way for him to address these things is to not address these things
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Jun 30, 2018 23:41
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:I keep thinking about how big JJs plate is for IX. The lack of a plan is really hurting the trilogy. This is stuff he must answer in addition to providing a satisfying conclusion. None of that will be addressed
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Jun 30, 2018 23:42
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euphronius posted:None of that will be addressed Then IX will be a sort of failure, and definitely a failure in terms of lore and myth making which was the inherent core of star wars.
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Jun 30, 2018 23:51
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:I keep thinking about how big JJs plate is for IX. The lack of a plan is really hurting the trilogy. This is stuff he must answer in addition to providing a satisfying conclusion. -Who were the Sith, before TPM/etc.? -The Force is strong with her. That was enough. -See above. High Force mojo doesn't require a specific explanation. -He was a cult leader who presumably was rich enough to buy tech. None of these really seem like major lore that needs explanation.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:02
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:Then IX will be a sort of failure, and definitely a failure in terms of lore and myth making which was the inherent core of star wars. yeah they should definitely take the time to explain a bunch of stuff because that has historically gone over terrifically with Star Wars fans
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Jul 1, 2018 00:04
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Lore isn't the point of Star Wars, and mythopoeia often leaves things unexplained. That said, The Force Awakens did leave many things unexplained that would have a strong influence on what the trilogy actually means. The Last Jedi filled in a lot of them, but there are still significant gaps.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:10
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While I do agree that not as much was explained in the original star wars movies I think there should have been much more storytelling and world building in these new films. It is pretty terrible how the political situation is not examined or explored in TFA at all while ANH gave us enough throwaway lines of dialogue to give us a pretty good idea of what was going on and also fuel for future comics, movies, etc. All this was was a over reactionary compensation to complaints about politics in the prequel films. The level of world building and storytelling complexity today is also very different from what audiences expected with the original films.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:14
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What relevant part of the political situation is not explained to you by the crawls and the dialog.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:15
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euphronius posted:What relevant part of the political situation is not explained to you by the crawls and the dialog. For me it is why the first order even exists when there is a republic, and who and why there needs to be a resistance. This problem is confounded when I realize that the only reason there is a force called the Resistance is a clumsy attempt to replicate the exact same David and Goliath conflict from the first trilogy. Its a pure fan service choice in every way. Even reflected with the fact that they are using the exact same ships like x-wings and TIE fighters. Classic ships to be sure but could we add in some new designs?
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Jul 1, 2018 00:21
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Oh did you see Return of the Jedi? It’s from 1983 but will answer some of your questions on those issues.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:23
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euphronius posted:Oh did you see Return of the Jedi? It’s from 1983 but will answer some of your questions on those issues. No Jedi makes things worse. We see the rebellion victorious having struck a major blow to the empire, and are lead to believe that there may be a struggle but the rebellion will be ascendant. Surely within 30 years.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:26
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Yeah the alliance to the restore the republic wins. However The first order rises from the *ashes* of the Empire and starts taking back systems and eventually destroys the nova republic and takes over the central galaxy.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:29
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Force Awakens was stronger for not having a ton of focus on exposition. It's the best-paced film of the Disney era.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:32
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euphronius posted:Yeah the alliance to the restore the republic wins. However The first order rises from the *ashes* of the Empire and starts taking back systems and eventually destroys the nova republic and takes over the central galaxy. Fair enough. I really do hope they make a book or comic explaining who snoke is and why he was trying to bring back the empire. I think I have to just be patient. Because it took decades for some of the lore of star wars to be built up. It wasn't until a few years ago that we even discovered palpatines first name.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:32
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There is a book on snoke I think . There definitely is one on Leia and the immediate pre TFA political situation. I’ve never read them tho.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:33
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Wrt to them having similar ship designs to the previous generation that seems to be to be acceptable visual shorthand to identify the parties and not unnecessarily confuse the viewers.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:35
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The only "lore" thing I can see being addressed in Episode IX is who the Knights of Ren are, but that's just because they might show up to round out the villains a bit now that Snoke and Phasma are gone.
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Jul 1, 2018 00:36
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The only question I have much interest about seeing answered is: now that Rey has all the secrets of the Jedi, has all the remaining resources of what's left of the Resistance, and presumably has (or at least has the ability to acquire) power enough to defeat the First Order and set the political stage going forward -- -- now that she has all of that, what does she actually want to accomplish?
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Jul 1, 2018 00:57
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cargohills posted:The only "lore" thing I can see being addressed in Episode IX is who the Knights of Ren are, but that's just because they might show up to round out the villains a bit now that Snoke and Phasma are gone.
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Jul 1, 2018 01:14
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I could never get through the Zahn books. Their enduring popularity is kinda baffling to me. The dumb force salamanders, the cloning, Thrawn listening to Wagner, stroking his chin, and going “I know just how to beat this Hitler fellow” The unabridged audiodrama narrated by Marc Thompson is Liiit. Sound effects, John Williams score, good voice acting. But if I actually had to "read" the thing without the ginmicks I'd probably tap out.
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Jul 1, 2018 01:23
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DeimosRising posted:I haven’t seen it in a decade or so, what makes this explicit? What I remember of his recruitment speech sounds like a hereditary monarchy, not an egalitarian revolution That’s taking things literally, like they’re talking about biological parenthood. Luke never really cared who knocked up his mom. What he always cared about is the spirit of his father - the dream that his father wasn’t a loser spice freighter pilot (like Han*), but a hero who fought and died for a reason. Here it’s important to understand that Vader is not Anakin; he is the inhuman stain that remains after the human Anakin is burnt away. Vader’s saying like “we are driven by the same spirit, we share the same cause.” In Empire, this specifically refers to how Luke is leading his own splinter group of ‘freedom fighters’. Leia the liberal politician is floundering, in over her head. The Rebellion as a whole is failing, rudderless, and so Luke goes on his whole soul-searching journey to figure out how to free the galaxy - and Vader provides the truthful answer. In the broader context of the series, Luke is literally Rogue One. He’s further to the left in a way that scares the centrists. “You’ll betray the Republic!”, Yoda pretty much warns. *Han in A New Hope is deliberately written to resemble the deadbeat dad version of Anakin that Owen dreamed up. That’s why Luke has so much immediate animosity towards him.
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Jul 1, 2018 01:46
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The Force Awakens doesn't do a good job of establishing the stakes outside of how the handful of named characters will be affected. A New Hope has a scene dedicated to the villains explaining how they intend to win, and nobody complains about that. It's a Star War, but we don't know the relative status of the three parties who are fighting in it.
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Jul 1, 2018 01:48
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The first order massacres a peaceful village at like minute 10.
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Jul 1, 2018 01:49
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euphronius posted:The first order massacres a peaceful village at like minute 10. I didn't say it didn't establish the bad guys are bad. Everybody comes out of the theater, rather, with wildly divergent readings about where the First order stands in relation to the Republic. It's a war for the fate of the galaxy. There are efficient ways of communicating how that war is currently going, but a massacre of a village doesn't really serve that purpose.
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Jul 1, 2018 02:03
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That’s not how i interpreted your “establishing the stakes” phrase. Not arguing with you, just explaining. But also right after that Poe’s look of awe and disbelief when he’s brought aboard the star destroyer speaks to the issue you bring up.
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Jul 1, 2018 02:06
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euphronius posted:But also right after that Poe’s look of awe and disbelief when he’s brought aboard the star destroyer speaks to the issue you bring up. Right, Poe's nonverbal cues aboard the First Order Star Destroyer are just about the only real clue we have about how the First Order relates to the Republic in terms of resources. It is a tremendous shock that they have even one state-of-the-art warship. A week later, it is revealed that not only do they have a galaxy-conquering fleet, it was built by the same suppliers who build the Republic's warships.
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Jul 1, 2018 02:11
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I could never get through the Zahn books. Their enduring popularity is kinda baffling to me. The dumb force salamanders, the cloning, Thrawn listening to Wagner, stroking his chin, and going “I know just how to beat this Hitler fellow” I'm actually glad I'm not the only one who felt that way. Read the first couple when I was maybe 11 or 12 and didn't like them enough to read all three. Tried again a few months before Disney closed the purchase of Lucasfilm and still couldn't do it. Then again there wasn't much in the old EU that I cared for that much aside from Lando Calrissian books and Tales from the Cantina. And KOTOR, generally.
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Jul 1, 2018 02:53
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