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I can imagine a game in which I'd really enjoy this boss fight, but Reborn is not that game. On some level I think the people saying it could work as a lategame encounter may be onto something, but even then, in a traditional Pokemon structure even if the tools were available, you'd still likely need to make a significant time investment raising one of a few specific mons to counter it (and generally speaking it's bad game design to force the player to grind). I think these kind of heavily-tuned puzzlish encounters would be better suited to a game that let you switch up teams at will, more or less how Pokemon Showdown works, or else handed you a specific team you're meant to be able to solve it with and left it to you to work out the actual solution. The latter can actually work pretty well. For comparison, I've been playing Pokemon XD a bit recently, and finally got around to trying out the Battle CDs (which I'd overlooked somehow last time I played it). Each one has a specific player team facing a specific enemy team, and asks you to figure out how to win (sometimes within a limited number of turns, otherwise against pokemon that on paper are much more powerful, etc). Several have legitimately tricky solutions that showcase interactions you might not otherwise think about - but the key is, they give you perfect information about both your team and what you're facing up front, they're designed as puzzles to be solved, you don't have to grind up the gimmick mons to play them, and you can keep trying at no cost until you win. I'm not going to say those are perfect either - in some cases it seems like the player only wins because the AI is forced to misplay, which I don't care for, but some of the others did genuinely make me feel clever when I realised what they wanted me to do. I also have a really hard time reconciling Amethyst's "I don't actually like Pokemon's mechanics much" claim with her having designed encounters whose primary purpose seems to be showcasing an intimate knowledge of those mechanics and beating the player over the head with them. Unless, I wonder... considering I made reference to Showdown earlier, and a lot of the misunderstood-Smogon-term-drops, etc, I find myself halfway wondering if she's grabbing teams people used on there and tweaking them to make these, without understanding that a team balanced against Showdown players is not at all fair ingame when the player doesn't get a similarly perfect setup.
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Jul 1, 2018 04:17
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haha
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Jul 1, 2018 04:21
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What the fuckery in the update aside, noticed a typo!quote:. Syngery is incredibly powerful, I know, I run Trick Room teams. I don’t have the means to synergize.
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Jul 1, 2018 04:41
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the closest the main games come to a battle like this is probably the seasonal N battles in BW2. Each season was based on a weather team and were pretty stacked. https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/N#Season_battles The difference being this is a post game battle that requires going through other post game content to even unlock (it's basically the last thing you'll do and you can miss they're even there) and that it's a Singles battle. And while the pokemon selection is generally good they're not the best possible selections designed to hate you. Provided your team wasn't too imbalanced and about equal in level, you could use your in-game team just fine.
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Jul 1, 2018 04:44
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Galick posted:What the fuckery in the update aside, noticed a typo! It's Jem except the conputer is a Jerry. Series has no legs.
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Jul 1, 2018 05:14
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Regalingualius posted:We could make it about time travel! Pokemon Zybourne would absolutely be better than Pokemon Reborn. "Imagine four moves your Pokemon knows. Say a direct copy of the move nearest the bottom is sent to the top of the list of moves and takes the place of the first move. The formerly first move becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth is forgotten. Time travel works the same way." Also Johnny Five Aces would be your rival and all his Pokemon would have five moves.
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Jul 1, 2018 05:45
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EclecticTastes posted:Also Johnny Five Aces would be your rival and all his Pokemon would have five moves. Alternatively he would only have five pokemon but all of them would be ace at something. They'd also all have suite names. Spade. Clubs. Heart. Diamond. Swords. 
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Jul 1, 2018 07:49
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EclecticTastes posted:Pokemon Zybourne would absolutely be better than Pokemon Reborn. I dunno man, I think that's how you get the Cooltrainer glitch. You'll tear the world apart.
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Jul 1, 2018 08:08
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I like how we're at the fourth gym and Reborn has already managed to blow past the absolute hardest and most bullshit fight Pokemon Uranium had. As absolutely absurd as Tiko was (especially with item usage locked off), it was an endgame fight where if you absolutely had to you could just try and level grind to bruteforce your way past it. And he at least wasn't completely required since the list of opponents you could fight was randomized so you could just plow through to the final boss without ever seeing him there or even just restart the final tournament until he didn't show up. This is somehow more minmaxed than that, at about the quarter mark (?) of the game, in a fangame that actively goes out of the way to prevent you from having anything good. And has continued to strip away useful things with every new release and replace them with bottom-tier trash or stuff that is bottom-tier trash for the next 25 hours before becoming actually usable For an example, remember how there used to be a Vulpix guarded by that one Klinklang (itself an overleveled boss fight that you couldn't steamroll) that could have Drought for an ability and thus completely snap the gimmick of this fight in twain? Yeah gently caress you it's gone now. I wouldn't be surprised if Bidoof went poof in E18 as a result, or possibly just all the regional rodents for still being too good (Raticate has Hyper Fang as a good STAB early on and Super Fang to tear apart PULSE bullshit, while hitting the final evolution early and potentially having Guts for an ability, for just one example) By the time Pokemon Reborn finishes development, you won't be able to buy Poke Balls until after the first Gym and your starter will be a Cosmog. Hope you caught the right five other Pokemon with your starting gift of 5 Poke Balls! ...Wait, what does Cosmoem even evolve into in Reborn anyways? Solgaleo or Lunala? Or because Reborn is a terrible shithole maybe it just collapses into itself and becomes Necrozma instead? EDIT: Wait, wouldn't this actually technically be the third gym since the poison gym leader died before giving us the badge? That's somehow even worse and more stupid. Like for comparison's sake, look at the third Gym Leader in Pokemon Uranium. A team that with one exception is absolutely annihilated by grass types, and the one thing that doesn't have a grass weakness has a 4x Ice weakness instead. And she's in the town where you can buy (at high prices, but still) Fire Blast/Thunder/Blizzard TMs or play Voltorb Flip in the game corner until you get a backhoe dragon to win everything forever. The scariest thing you see there is STAB Leaf Blade. Pokemon Uranium is better designed than Reborn, and it was the fangame with Inflatgetah in it. the Orb of Zot fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Jul 1, 2018 |
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Jul 1, 2018 08:29
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Onmi posted:It is again, a reminder that this was not designed for the average player, it was designed for the hyper-competitive community that is Reborn. That said, it's ridiculous how limited our options are. While we have super effective things here, and it's... Interesting? To have a Bug-Team based around Rain, that doesn't change how brutal it is. This is less smug than I expected of an answer I wanted to see smugness to rage about, damnit. Because that fight was BS.
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Jul 1, 2018 09:29
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I think what annoys me most about Amethyst is the way she blames everyone else. 'It wasn't my decision! I don't like this setting! It used to be easier! I don't like this mechanic! I don't like this series! I don't even like this entire genre!' She acts as if someone once kidnapped her, chained her up, held a gun to her head and threatened her family. They forced her to join a fandom RP, forced her to turn it into a game and are now forcing her to make it more and more bullshit and offensive every time someone manages to wriggle around the stupid arbitrary restrictions. As for what annoys me about the game (apart from the deeply offensive parts), it's that everything is compulsory. There is only one solution. You can't diversify because you have very few other options and they're all crap and won't get you past the various roadblocks. If people want a challenge they're quite capable of setting one themselves - see Nuzlocke, for example. People who think Pokemon is too easy can easily cripple themselves to make it as hard as they like. There's no need to force every single player to do it. That isn't fun, and it also means the game has absolutely no replay factor because why would you bother playing the game again when you have to use the exact same pokemon, movesets and strategies to progress? Once you've finally managed to figure out what you're 'supposed' to use, that's it. (Well, why would you play it again anyway when it's lovely and awful, but that's by the by.)
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Jul 1, 2018 10:14
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I can sort of see the appeal of competitive pokemon play. It's essentially a strategy game where you have to work out the best move and how you think the opponent would respond to it. But part of the point of competitive is that you've got next to unlimited options to use, here you have to do everything withyour hands tied behind your back and your eyes gouged out.
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Jul 1, 2018 11:16
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Speaking of mistakes in pokefangames - I'm still just starting out with the plot for my fangame idea, and am looking at the starter selection. Now, someone said long ago that fangame makers shouldn't just put any pokemon as a starter and to look at intended starters, but does it matter which specifically I pick as long as I keep to the Grass/Fire/Water trifecta? I was thinking of all the starters being birbs (ie Owlet/Torchic/Piplup) for story reasons, but am wondering if that might be a bad idea for reasons I'd be ignorant of. Also, is there a megathread for pokemon fangames to follow and ask further questions as they come up when/if I go further with the project?
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Jul 1, 2018 11:24
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Speaking of mistakes in pokefangames - I'm still just starting out with the plot for my fangame idea, and am looking at the starter selection. Now, someone said long ago that fangame makers shouldn't just put any pokemon as a starter and to look at intended starters, but does it matter which specifically I pick as long as I keep to the Grass/Fire/Water trifecta? I was thinking of all the starters being birbs (ie Owlet/Torchic/Piplup) for story reasons, but am wondering if that might be a bad idea for reasons I'd be ignorant of. Hi, hello I was the one who brought up Starter selection being important. When it comes to starter selection, you have to consider why the starters are who they are. Namely that they evolve pretty much on curve through the whole game, so when you're just starting to struggle, the starter will evolve to become a powerhouse again. Let's look at the three starters you picked, Owlet, Torchic and Piplup Owlet's eventual ghost typing will blank Blaziken's fighting moves, and he has brave bird. Issue: He's slow as poo poo, But really that's not that important on a normal difficulty curve. Blaziken's fighting type will allow it to fight Piplups steel typing. Piplup doesn't get anything over Rowlet, you know, beyond being able to learn ice moves like every water type every. So yeah, seems pretty fine. I feel a need to stress that making a fan game is harder than you probably think it is. There's a lot to consider.
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Jul 1, 2018 11:35
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Speaking of mistakes in pokefangames - I'm still just starting out with the plot for my fangame idea, and am looking at the starter selection. Now, someone said long ago that fangame makers shouldn't just put any pokemon as a starter and to look at intended starters, but does it matter which specifically I pick as long as I keep to the Grass/Fire/Water trifecta? I was thinking of all the starters being birbs (ie Owlet/Torchic/Piplup) for story reasons, but am wondering if that might be a bad idea for reasons I'd be ignorant of. It's a bad idea because I'm not too fond of birbs. More seriously, I don't see any reason why the design would matter, as long as the typing, stats and movesets are balanced and work with the earlygame content. A lot of fangames tend to give you a 'choice' of three except only one is any good and the other two are almost unusable until you catch some other stuff. Using the trio you mentioned as an example, 9 out of 10 players are going to pick Torchic because Blaziken is OP. The other 1 will probably pick Rowlet. I like Empoleon but good lord is it a pain to use. (also worth noting that only one of these three birds can fly in its final form. Not sure how that would affect your birb story.)
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Jul 1, 2018 11:40
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Onmi posted:Hi, hello I was the one who brought up Starter selection being important. Alright, thanks for the advice! I know making a fangame is gonna be really hard, but it's not like I really have anything else to do. Though even then I realize the chances of ending up with even an alpha-stage project is slim, but might as well give it a try. And oh boy the balancing. I had to ask about starter pokemon balance, and there'll still be the whole game to balance through. e: wait, one of them can learn fly? dammit, I was hoping none of them could. Oh well, it doesn't matter that much
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Jul 1, 2018 11:42
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Speaking of mistakes in pokefangames - I'm still just starting out with the plot for my fangame idea, and am looking at the starter selection. Now, someone said long ago that fangame makers shouldn't just put any pokemon as a starter and to look at intended starters, but does it matter which specifically I pick as long as I keep to the Grass/Fire/Water trifecta? I was thinking of all the starters being birbs (ie Owlet/Torchic/Piplup) for story reasons, but am wondering if that might be a bad idea for reasons I'd be ignorant of. As long as they're all starters, they're generally safe to shuffle around. The thing about the starter trifectas is that they all have very similar statblocks with roughly the same base stat total through all three stages, all evolve at roughly the same level, and largely branch off into secondary types. There are exceptions to all of these points, as a rule (the gen 2 starters, Blastoise, Sceptile, and Serperior and Samurott are all single-type, Totodile has a late Stage 2 and early stage 3 evolution, etc) but they're pretty solidly set in stone for a reason: your starters are supposed to be the training wheels for that new player. Not only are they generally competent even at their worst (contrast a Luvdisc or a Sunkern), but the games are very blatantly paced so that the shift in battle difficulty hits when your starter would hit its second and third stage respectively. That's why single-stage pokemon are overwhelmingly strong in the early game but then drop off hard later on, and why late-evolvers with a weak stage one (hi, noibat, hi larvesta) are often not as easy to use in casual main-game play as they are to just raise for competitive. It's somewhat important to make sure one starter choice doesn't dominate the others, too - Every starter is countered offensively (if not defensively) by one or both of its counterparts, even after evolving. Sometimes the triangle shifts directions - Infernape punches a hole in Empoleon with his fighting type, but gets wrecked by Torterra's STAB Earthquakes - but there's never a situation where one starter pokemon is just an unquestionably inferior or superior choice based on its typing alone. As an example, putting Empoleon in a trio without a fighting type or ground type anywhere in it - for instance, if it was paired with Sceptile and Typhlosion - would mean that it would never take Super-Effective damage from another starter's STAB once it reached its third stage and thus would be defensively superior. There'd be little strategic incentive to pick anything but Piplup in this hypothetical case because no matter how shaky the early game would be, the final evolution would never have to worry about a rival's chosen starter, period. This is sort of where Uranium duffs up - not only is Water/Electric an absurdly solid type combo both offensively and defensively, the inclusion of Static means that picking anything but its Water/Electric starter just has a Worse Pokemon, notably enough so that it's borderline impossible/absurdly RNG-dependent to succeed if you start with the grass/steel type pokemon because of being faced with said water/electric type. There's a reason the starters all, er, start with Blaze/Torrent/Overgrow. Not only does it add another layer to the training wheels - if you're getting beat up you'll be able to make better clutch comebacks - but it also stops the player (or the AI) from getting any absurdly busted abilities early on before they've learned about them.
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Jul 1, 2018 11:57
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Alright, thanks for the advice! No, none of them learn fly, but Deucideye learns flying type moves.
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Jul 1, 2018 12:16
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KataraniSword posted:As long as they're all starters, they're generally safe to shuffle around. The thing about the starter trifectas is that they all have very similar statblocks with roughly the same base stat total through all three stages, all evolve at roughly the same level, and largely branch off into secondary types. There are exceptions to all of these points, as a rule (the gen 2 starters, Blastoise, Sceptile, and Serperior and Samurott are all single-type, Totodile has a late Stage 2 and early stage 3 evolution, etc) but they're pretty solidly set in stone for a reason: your starters are supposed to be the training wheels for that new player. Not only are they generally competent even at their worst (contrast a Luvdisc or a Sunkern), but the games are very blatantly paced so that the shift in battle difficulty hits when your starter would hit its second and third stage respectively. That's why single-stage pokemon are overwhelmingly strong in the early game but then drop off hard later on, and why late-evolvers with a weak stage one (hi, noibat, hi larvesta) are often not as easy to use in casual main-game play as they are to just raise for competitive. the last thing to bring up is the thing most people don't think of (Why not do Fighting/Psychic/Ghost or Dark for example?) Is that Fire, Grass and Water share a very unique trait. Nothing is immune to Fire, Grass or Water purely based on typing. In short, if you have a Literal Child who has put 4 fire moves on their fire starter (You all did it, don't lie) They aren't poo poo out of luck in the worst case scenario. It wont be very effective, but you can theoretically hammer through.
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Jul 1, 2018 12:21
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Onmi posted:the last thing to bring up is the thing most people don't think of (Why not do Fighting/Psychic/Ghost or Dark for example?) Is that Fire, Grass and Water share a very unique trait. Nothing is immune to Fire, Grass or Water purely based on typing. In short, if you have a Literal Child who has put 4 fire moves on their fire starter (You all did it, don't lie) They aren't poo poo out of luck in the worst case scenario. It wont be very effective, but you can theoretically hammer through. The "I'm going to brute force Brock with Charmander" method.
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Jul 1, 2018 13:14
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I have no idea why you guys are making such a big deal about starter type matchups. No one is going to pick Empoleon purely to get a slight advantage against a single pokémon you face in like four trainer battles.
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Jul 1, 2018 13:16
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Not for a slight advantage, but if that one pokemon is a figurative nightmare and nothing else available up to that point in the game can deal with it, including the other two starters, without going through a lot of fuss or overlevelling incredibly, taking Piplup starts to look like a good idea. Ideally there's no nightmare team you need anything for, so you get to just use your favourite team; games might be a fair challenge with some setups, but shouldn't be nigh-unbeatable without major team changes. I'm going to guess it's because the Reborn forums went 'we thought this was going to be hard' that the availability of pokemon is so limited, but that gym leader fight probably wouldn't have been too much easier without the arbitrary level limit and with more pokemon available. It probably would have made it a bit closer to enjoyable to attempt with more options to try, though. Being able to overlevel is a safety feature in RPGs; if you really can't beat something at the intended level (in almost any game), it's an option to just ditch strategy to a degree and just overpower things, at the cost of grinding to get there and subsequent fights being a bit dull due to all those levels. Common candy would be an interesting feature if you didn't need to level extremely carefully or else use it.
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Jul 1, 2018 14:34
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Maybe Shelly's fight was reasonably balanced (for this game's wonky difficulty curve, anyway) at one point, but when it got updated with more and better Pokemon it got out of hand, and nobody bothered to test how much more difficult it was. That Araquanid wasn't around before Sun and Moon came out, for example, so there was only one rain-setter and it would have been easier to handle. I wouldn't be surprised at a lack of testing anywhere in the game, in fact. Would you want to replay sections of this game?
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Jul 1, 2018 14:47
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I have no idea why you guys are making such a big deal about starter type matchups. No one is going to pick Empoleon purely to get a slight advantage against a single pokémon you face in like four trainer battles. Not to mention it's ignoring Gen 6 where the secondary typings all doubled up on the super-effective power against the others.
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Jul 1, 2018 14:48
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I'd love to see a starter chain where they pick up their own weakness as a second type on the 3rd evo. You'd have a Fire-Water type, a Grass-Fire type, and a Water-Grass type. Maybe for Pokemon Australia. So you'd have a drunken quokka, some sort of joke about Australia being constantly on fire, and leaf-billed platypus. They all wind up with 3 weaknesses (ground, rock, electric; flying, poison, bug; and flying, poison, rock respectively) and none of them are weak to each other. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Jul 1, 2018 |
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Jul 1, 2018 14:56
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PoptartsNinja posted:I'd love to see a starter chain where they pick up their own weakness as a second type on the 3rd evo. Someone I know did that for a pokemon tabletop game set in pokemon New England. Fire/Water lobster, Grass/Fire raccoon, and Water/Grass turtle.
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Jul 1, 2018 16:01
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Speaking of mistakes in pokefangames - I'm still just starting out with the plot for my fangame idea, and am looking at the starter selection. Now, someone said long ago that fangame makers shouldn't just put any pokemon as a starter and to look at intended starters, but does it matter which specifically I pick as long as I keep to the Grass/Fire/Water trifecta? I was thinking of all the starters being birbs (ie Owlet/Torchic/Piplup) for story reasons, but am wondering if that might be a bad idea for reasons I'd be ignorant of. I'm in favor if only because Piplup is my favorite starter ever, because penguins are awesome. The balancing stuff is important too, I guess.
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Jul 1, 2018 16:02
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azren posted:I'm in favor if only because Piplup is my favorite starter ever, because penguins are awesome. The balancing stuff is important too, I guess.  but Rowlet and owls.
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Jul 1, 2018 16:07
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Shelly's hair looks like she let a toddler cut it, which isn't unusual in Reborn. Just chunks of totally different length, making no cohesive whole. There's better ways to do a 'one eye covered' hairstyle.
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Jul 1, 2018 16:40
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Onmi posted:No, none of them learn fly, but Deucideye learns flying type moves. Also Empoleon learns Drill Peck.
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Jul 1, 2018 17:04
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PetraCore posted:Shelly's hair looks like she let a toddler cut it, which isn't unusual in Reborn. Just chunks of totally different length, making no cohesive whole. There's better ways to do a 'one eye covered' hairstyle. Having worked with many pixel artists, I can assure you, that apparently hair and hats are mystical, magical things that cannot be grasped by the human psyche.
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Jul 1, 2018 17:19
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MissileWaster posted:Also Empoleon learns Drill Peck. And Blaziken learns Brave Bird. There's no real reason to use it since it's pretty redundant coverage with Blaziken's STABs but it's an option.
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Jul 1, 2018 17:26
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MissileWaster posted:Also Empoleon learns Drill Peck. And Blaziken learns Brave Bird 
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Jul 1, 2018 17:29
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Manic_Misanthrope posted:The "I'm going to brute force Brock with Charmander" method.
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Jul 1, 2018 17:32
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If you evolved Charmander, (and if you were going to use just your starter instead of catching a Mankey or Butterfree you were probably funneling all your exp to Charmander anyway, so hitting level 16 wasn't too difficult) Brock wasn't that bad in gen 1. Geodude and Onix had such horrible special that Ember is 5 or 6 hit KOing even if you didn't land a burn and they didn't have any Rock moves. As long as you didn't attack into Onix's Bide and used a potion or two you would be fine.
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Jul 1, 2018 18:14
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PetraCore posted:Shelly's hair looks like she let a toddler cut it, which isn't unusual in Reborn. Just chunks of totally different length, making no cohesive whole. There's better ways to do a 'one eye covered' hairstyle. It's like Bugsy's hair, which is the same lavender shade and made of rectangles. His is symmetrical though, and short enough it doesn't really stick out.
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Jul 1, 2018 22:19
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Jul 1, 2018 22:50
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Onmi posted:the last thing to bring up is the thing most people don't think of (Why not do Fighting/Psychic/Ghost or Dark for example?) Is that Fire, Grass and Water share a very unique trait. Nothing is immune to Fire, Grass or Water purely based on typing. In short, if you have a Literal Child who has put 4 fire moves on their fire starter (You all did it, don't lie) They aren't poo poo out of luck in the worst case scenario. It wont be very effective, but you can theoretically hammer through. I can say from experience that all the good game design in the world will not help a sufficiently determined literal child. When I first played Pokemon, back when I was eight, I immediately caught a Jigglypuff, evolved in about twenty minutes later with the Moon Stone you get in Mt. Moon, then used it exclusively for the rest of the game. Except its moveset was nothing but a rotating set of TM moves, and by the time I got to the Elite Four, all of its moves were Normal-type and I was out of TMs. I ended up having to start a new game because Agatha completely walled me. Fortunately, I hadn't actually spent all that much time training or catching stuff as I barreled on through with my ill-advised Wigglytuff solo run.
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Jul 1, 2018 23:18
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 "What the hell do I need Thunder Wave for? It doesn't even do damage!"- Me, about 20 years ago
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Jul 1, 2018 23:29
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Feldherren posted:Not for a slight advantage, but if that one pokemon is a figurative nightmare and nothing else available up to that point in the game can deal with it, including the other two starters, without going through a lot of fuss or overlevelling incredibly, taking Piplup starts to look like a good idea. Ideally there's no nightmare team you need anything for, so you get to just use your favourite team; games might be a fair challenge with some setups, but shouldn't be nigh-unbeatable without major team changes. Well yes, in the context of a hard-mode fangame where your rival starter is somehow the biggest obstacle you face in the game, that might be a consideration. No one who is not a literal child has ever gotten walled by their rival's starter, since by the time it's evolved to the point where its secondary typing matters, you'll already have a diverse enough team that your starter's type isn't what determines your ability to win a fight.
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Jul 1, 2018 23:35
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