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suicidesteve posted:Man, like nothing you said makes any sense in the context of Bant Spirits. Maybe someone is going to make Spirit Taxes into A Real Deck or something, but that's not what we're talking about. You're right, cards like Rattlechains, Mauseuleum Wanderer, and Geist of St. Traft are all really bad at picking up swords and a deck that leans heavily on Spell Queller is definitely not happy to have an additional way to spend it's mana turn 3. But yes, please tell me how evasive creatures are bad with equipment and how SFM is awful in Spirits, a deck that plays 4 Cursecatcher effects, because it'll be blown out by your opponent's t3 Kolaghan's Command. But yeah, Bant Spirits is full of superior turn two threats, like Rattlechains or Selfless Spirits. Those cards really get the beat down goin, huh? Or is it that Drogskol Captain is going to be a fantastic t2 play with no other spirits in play? Geist maybe, attacking into a metagame full of one mana 4/5s, 5/5s, and whatever Champion of the Parish happens to be? Like c'mon, Stoneforge is amazing in a Spirits deck. Maybe you cut Collected Company, maybe you don't, but the card lines up incredibly well with the Spirits game plan. Being so dismissive of it doesn't really make any sense.
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Jul 1, 2018 20:20
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Can we just agree that the deck of ghosty bois will probably try SFM independent of whether or not the card turns out to be good in the deck?
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Jul 1, 2018 20:26
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SFM would probably be better in a straight UW Spirits deck than in Bant, and then the question becomes would you rather have CoCo or Swords. I don't know what you cut from the Bant list to squeeze in 4 SFM and a couple of equipment cards that isn't CoCo.
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Jul 1, 2018 21:08
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Sampatrick posted:Activating SFM is an instant speed effect and Kolaghan's Command is hardly anywhere in the format. Honestly, even if Kommand takes out SFM and blows up your equipment, you're probably fine with that. It is better to trade one for one against Kommand than to have it blow up a creature and make you discard or have it hit your vial. Passing the turn with the option of Queller or SFM activation is a fantastic place, and with evasion and hexproof, Spirits are fantastic at picking up a sword. I think it's really foolish to think that you wouldn't play SFM in a UW deck that is jam packed with evasive creatures, some of whom also have some form of resilience. I see KComm all over the place lately between Jund, Mardu Pyro & Grixis Death's Shadow, and I'm sure I'm missing others 
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Jul 1, 2018 21:37
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suicidesteve posted:No. A tempo deck doesn't want to spend 2 turns and 4 mana to get blown out by a Kolaghan's Command, especially when those 2 turns and 4 mana could cast actual cards and get a better clock out anyway. maybe i could use my powerful brain to cast the other cards in my hand instead of running batterskull into a spell that my opponent is obviously representing
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Jul 1, 2018 21:50
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little munchkin posted:maybe i could use my powerful brain to cast the other cards in my hand instead of running batterskull into a spell that my opponent is obviously representing You're so close to understanding why the deck doesn't want to play Stoneforge.
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Jul 1, 2018 22:06
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I think there’s plenty of reason to not just immediately dismiss it and try testing it. Spirits hold Swords really well, have ways to keep KoCo at bay and synergise well with SFM’s tap activation. Having the ability to play Butterskills to give a life buffer on the ground while racing in the air seems significant and I wouldn’t discount it.
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Jul 1, 2018 22:17
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TheKingofSprings posted:I think there’s plenty of reason to not just immediately dismiss it and try testing it. Spirits hold Swords really well, have ways to keep KoCo at bay and synergise well with SFM’s tap activation. Having the ability to play Butterskills to give a life buffer on the ground while racing in the air seems significant and I wouldn’t discount it. Probably not want though without stripping out a critical mass of synergies. UW could do it with a taxing strategy but it probably play better in just a W/UW/Esper stoneblade package.
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Jul 2, 2018 03:16
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Errant Gin Monks posted:Probably not want though without stripping out a critical mass of synergies. UW could do it with a taxing strategy but it probably play better in just a W/UW/Esper stoneblade package. You can just cut Company and a few mana dorks and you're good to go.
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Jul 2, 2018 04:17
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Yeah, I could see it in UW Vial Spirits or Esper. SFM + Lingering Souls is definitely a good combo. If you cut Company then wtf are you even playing Bant for? That's the entire reason for the green.
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Jul 2, 2018 04:19
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suicidesteve posted:Yeah, I could see it in UW Vial Spirits or Esper. SFM + Lingering Souls is definitely a good combo. /shrug. Company is just the spitballiest cut. You could also skimp on mana dorks or something, it's really not a big deal. I would assume you're more in green because you don't have many good two drops that you want to actually cast but your three drops are at least decent. T2 Geist in particular seems like a bigger draw compared to Company.
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Jul 2, 2018 04:36
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I may only do well with this deck rarely but boy do I love playing it
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Jul 2, 2018 15:43
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DRS and Gitaxian Probe are now banned in Legacy. SFM is still banned in Modern, so good job everyone who tried to buy them out  E: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/july-2-2018-banned-restricted-update-2018-07-02
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Jul 2, 2018 15:44
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Good bans imo, wonder what I should replace DRS with in elves.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:54
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The March Hare posted:Good bans imo, wonder what I should replace DRS with in elves. I'm running the same calculus. I'm thinking maaaaybe 2 Llanowar, and then 2 silver bullets? Possibly a scooze to have a little bit less of a miserable G1 against yard decks.
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Jul 2, 2018 16:03
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Ban Leovold too. Or unban DTT.
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Jul 2, 2018 16:07
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Yeah, I've got md scooze already. Was also thinking like 1-2 llanowar and then... not sure.
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Jul 2, 2018 16:12
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Holy poo poo. So, Legacy chat, I may or may not have Grixis Delver in full, and most of ANT, leading up to this day. ANT will likely survive and move away from using Cabal Therapy as the discard of choice. But can Grixis Delver even exist without these tools? I think it could have survived either ban, but both at once is rough.
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Jul 2, 2018 16:19
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The March Hare posted:Good bans imo, wonder what I should replace DRS with in elves.  I actually decided to take apart Elves last month for various reasons; one of them was not wanting to deal with what to do when this happened today. It's unfortunate that a lower tier deck had to take collateral damage, but it was a necessary ban. I don't think this kills elves, but this does basically mean that now you're punting game 1 to Reanimator and Dredge 100% (instead of just like 75%). I was already running 3 Leyline of the Void in the side, I'd up that to 4 and call it good, but I'm glad I'm off this deck now; I hate just going in knowing you're giving up game 1 in certain matches. Maindeck Ooze might pull off a miracle here and there, but it's not nearly fast enough in a world of turn 2 Elesh Norns.
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Jul 2, 2018 16:36
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BaronVonVaderham posted:It's unfortunate that a lower tier deck had to take collateral damage, but it was a necessary ban. I don't think this kills elves, but this does basically mean that now you're punting game 1 to Reanimator and Dredge 100% (instead of just like 75%). I've seen some people suggesting that the damage to us from losing DRS is probably a net positive because probe really hurts us, and everyone is losing DRS. Additionally, if we see a resurgence of Taxes decks, 
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Jul 2, 2018 17:15
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Tim Raines IRL posted:Additionally, if we see a resurgence of Taxes decks, This is what I play now. A friend was selling out so I bought his collection, which included most of this deck. I found I was enjoying it more since it had a way bigger decision tree. I like having poo poo to do, and I found a lot of Elves games I was just hoping for a good opener and not whiffing when I go for it on Glimpse.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:28
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pretty hosed up that wizards would UNJUSTLY punish us simple Death's Shadow mages by banning Gitaxian Probe
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Jul 2, 2018 17:46
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I’m looking forward to RUG Delver being good again.
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Jul 2, 2018 18:22
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standard.deviant posted:I’m looking forward to RUG Delver being good again. Bad news,
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Jul 2, 2018 18:32
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I think there's probably a good punishing fire deck lurking in the shadows of this post DRS wasteland. Punishing Fire obviously gets WAY better and you can make do with like, piles of leovolds and baleful strix and maybe a goyf or two e: actually so does snapcaster mage, which would help that same kind of strategy
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Jul 2, 2018 18:37
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Ahahahahaha get poo poo on Oops All Spells. Breakfast Burrito supremacy.
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Jul 2, 2018 18:40
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Archenteron posted:Ahahahahaha get poo poo on Oops All Spells. Breakfast Burrito supremacy. finally, has the age old question been answered.
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Jul 2, 2018 18:42
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Johnny Five-Jaces posted:I think there's probably a good punishing fire deck lurking in the shadows of this post DRS wasteland. Punishing Fire obviously gets WAY better and you can make do with like, piles of leovolds and baleful strix and maybe a goyf or two RUG delver resurgence incoming.
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Jul 2, 2018 18:45
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Errant Gin Monks posted:RUG delver resurgence incoming. Good of them to revive Canadian Threshold right after Canada Day
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Jul 2, 2018 18:48
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Johnny Five-Jaces posted:I think there's probably a good punishing fire deck lurking in the shadows of this post DRS wasteland. Punishing Fire obviously gets WAY better and you can make do with like, piles of leovolds and baleful strix and maybe a goyf or two Yeah, it's called Lands.
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Jul 2, 2018 18:58
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Errant Gin Monks posted:RUG delver resurgence incoming. I desperately want this to be the case, but it probably isn't 
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Jul 2, 2018 19:18
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BaronVonVaderham posted:This is what I play now. A friend was selling out so I bought his collection, which included most of this deck. I found I was enjoying it more since it had a way bigger decision tree. I like having poo poo to do, and I found a lot of Elves games I was just hoping for a good opener and not whiffing when I go for it on Glimpse. I do not consider myself a good elves player, by a long shot, but a huge part of the challenge of the deck -- and what sets Julian Knab apart from the rest of us -- is understanding what your lines are. Removing DRS from the deck does kill one set of victory lines, but also means we're not having to get into DRS fights with other decks. But, yea, when you get the nutty t2 glimpse draw and they can't force it, then it's a free win. Understanding how to optimally play a hand that's, like, forest, pendelhaven, GSZ, birchlore rangers, heritage druid, elvisish visionary, llanowar elves, in the context of an interactive game where some of your stuff is going to get killed, is playing the deck. We are not Sneak & Show, we can't just mull to a combo hand and then go off and win if they don't have force. I've only dabbled in taxes, but I find elves to be a much more nuanced and complex deck. My favorite games are the ones where I get to do something absolutely "terrible" like natural order a dryad arbor into a reclamation sage, and have it be correct and game-winning.
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Jul 2, 2018 19:23
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Cactrot posted:I desperately want this to be the case, but it probably isn't Turns out Grixis Delver minus the Deathrites is still better than anything RUG can do.
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Jul 2, 2018 19:26
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Man are yall under rating RUG and over rating Grixis
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Jul 2, 2018 19:30
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Tim Raines IRL posted:I do not consider myself a good elves player, by a long shot, but a huge part of the challenge of the deck -- and what sets Julian Knab apart from the rest of us -- is understanding what your lines are. Removing DRS from the deck does kill one set of victory lines, but also means we're not having to get into DRS fights with other decks. But, yea, when you get the nutty t2 glimpse draw and they can't force it, then it's a free win. Understanding how to optimally play a hand that's, like, forest, pendelhaven, GSZ, birchlore rangers, heritage druid, elvisish visionary, llanowar elves, in the context of an interactive game where some of your stuff is going to get killed, is playing the deck. We are not Sneak & Show, we can't just mull to a combo hand and then go off and win if they don't have force. Oh no doubt, I've had some AMAZING games with Elves. I just feel like there are definitely some games where you're either getting torn apart by discard or just whiff on Glimpse draws, and you just sit there watching the game instead, and those feel really bad. With D&T I feel like every turn every decision I make matters, even when I'm losing (I guess I just lose more slowly, but it feels like I have a chance). If elves survives in some manner, I'm definitely getting the deck online when I get back on MTGO (I had my gf lock me out of my account for a few months to cool off). I love it and think it's an interesting and skill-testing deck for sure, and perhaps more than most decks really rewards knowing your deck inside and out. I just think it's silly for me to have two paper Legacy decks when I get to play so rarely as it is, and I guess I'm gravitating more toward the D&T style now. Unloading my cradles and stuff let me finish foiling my cube and this past weekend upgrade my 8.0 Ancestral Recall to a 9.0 so my power matches now. Plus, white looks REALLY pretty when you foil the deck out 
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Jul 2, 2018 19:33
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EvilBeard posted:Yeah, it's called Lands. i mean an honorable deck playing as Richard Garfield intended: with Force of Wills
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Jul 2, 2018 20:55
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Cactrot posted:I desperately want this to be the case, but it probably isn't Well on the flip side if punishing jund wasn't dead before (it was) it is now without DRS
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Jul 3, 2018 03:28
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GOOSE IS LOOSE Sleeving up RUG Delver tomorrow
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Jul 3, 2018 03:35
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gently caress me for not buying volcanics
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Jul 3, 2018 14:48
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Tim Raines IRL posted:gently caress me for not buying volcanics  I dumped my old gaea’s cradle and some extra fetches for two at $350, and I’m really regretting not dumping my grim monoliths and maybe some other junk for at least one more.
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Jul 3, 2018 17:29
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